Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building - Y'all got any more of them Kessel rumors

[WayneSid9987]

As much as Rask would suck, it's alot easier for the staff to simply not play him/waive him if need be.
D is just a different story, especially in PIT where they go down like flies at times and JJ, the moose that he is, will be gettin' tons of ice time.

I don't think Phil is gonna waive tho unless someone he knows on Minny can sway him in a big way.
I don't think being close to home plays much on Phil's mind.
In the end, i think Tocchet/ARI will win out and they won't have to give up their 1st.
Will be pick 45, a roster player and probably something else. Maybe a 2nd in 2020 or a top prospect.

ETA: Hoping theres ARI and another team on his yes list that can bid on him cuz thats probably the only way you get another 1st i'm thinkin'.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I wonder if Phil's friendship with Suter ends up swaying the tide one way or another.

He's certainly not going to Minny to win--though he's not winning here either. He's going to have much weaker forwards to play with in Minny, so that's another negative. I don't think he cares about being close to home all that much, so that's a non-factor.

There are several other teams interested, apparently. Up to half a dozen including Minnesota, with several (3 or 4) on Phil's accepted list.

We'll see. I just wish we didn't have to wait a month to find out.

 

[Peat]

As much as Rask would suck, it's alot easier for the staff to simply not play him/waive him if need be.
D is just a different story, especially in PIT where they go down like flies at times and JJ, the moose that he is, will be gettin' tons of ice time.

I don't think Phil is gonna waive tho unless someone he knows on Minny can sway him in a big way.
I don't think being close to home plays much on Phil's mind.
In the end, i think Tocchet/ARI will win out and they won't have to give up their 1st.
Will be pick 45, a roster player and probably something else. Maybe a 2nd in 2020 or a top prospect.

ETA: Hoping theres ARI and another team on his yes list that can bid on him cuz thats probably the only way you get another 1st i'm thinkin'.

I thought there was a rumour that Arizona's ownership were blocking a potential bid?

 

[WayneSid9987]

I thought there was a rumour that Arizona's ownership were blocking a potential bid?

Yea, now that i remember, i heard that somewhere yesterday. Might've been TIOPS tho. Heh.

 

[Peat]

Yea, now that i remember, i heard that somewhere yesterday. Might've been TIOPS tho. Heh.

Sir, you insult me if you think my memory is so bad as to confuse what's posted from TIOPS with actual rumours!

 

[orby]

Zucker wouldn't be a bad replacement for Kessel, and he's younger too. Rask sucks, but Johnson is way worse for a variety of reasons. I would make that deal.

 

[Kristopher Letang]

JR: Do you wanna go play in Minnesota Phil?

 

[gdsmack267]

I really like Zucker so im not against him being the main piece coming back but i really hate taking on Rasks contract. We already have gudbranson taking up 4 million. I hate that having to dump Johnson is diminishing Kessels trade value.

IMO Rask and Johnson are a wash in terms of bad contract dumps. Wild should be adding like a 2nd round pick to this deal.

 

[JackFr]

I hate that having to dump Johnson is diminishing Kessels trade value.

IMO Rask and Johnson are a wash in terms of bad contract dumps.

Wait so is Johnson diminishing Kessel's value or do Rask and Johnson have the same value.

 

[gdsmack267]

Wait so is Johnson diminishing Kessel's value or do Rask and Johnson have the same value.

I legtit have no smartass comment. You got me.

All you need to know is my hatred for Jack Johnson and that contract.

 

[TimmyD]

Sir, you insult me if you think my memory is so bad as to confuse what's posted from TIOPS with actual rumours!

It was mentioned in the Yohe article yesterday. Arizona’s ownership is preventing them from making an offer. Probably because they know they would be getting a guy who has now worn out his welcome in 3 different locker room and is starting to hit a decline

 

[Will Hunting]

jfc... for the sake of transparency:

GF/GA, trailing, with empty net: 2/13 (-11)
GF/GA, all-situations, powerplay: 44/13 (-13)

Thats -24 on the season right off the bat on empty netters and shorties.

GF/GA, all-situations, even-strength: 56-62 (-6)
GF/GA, all-situations, 5v5: 52-44 (+8)

Not good, but not catastrophically bad.

GF/GA, all-situations, all-strengths: 100-75 (+25)

Like it wasn't a great season for him, he obviously ****ed up quite a bit this year just off the eye-test but if you actually think that he was borderline a NEGATIVE player... sorry but no, he still ended up helping them win more games than they lost.

His negative impact goes deeper than just stats (which are not good either). It´s all arguable, but Kessel helps a lot and he also hurts a lot. He has a negative impact on Malkin, that´s pretty obvious and that´s the player he likes to play with.... Also, I absolutely hated how we played in the playoffs and in a lot of regular season games too. Like, lazy uninspired hockey, not willing to play 100%. Guess who is the main protagonist of not playing 100% on our current roster? Obviously it has an influence on other players too. That needs to go away. This team can´t rely on talent so much anymore. Those days are gone. They need to play hard and harder. So yeah, bye Phil.

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

I wonder if Phil's friendship with Suter ends up swaying the tide one way or another.

He's certainly not going to Minny to win--though he's not winning here either. He's going to have much weaker forwards to play with in Minny, so that's another negative. I don't think he cares about being close to home all that much, so that's a non-factor.

There are several other teams interested, apparently. Up to half a dozen including Minnesota, with several (3 or 4) on Phil's accepted list.

We'll see. I just wish we didn't have to wait a month to find out.

But let the price be driven up. I keep seeing some say we wont get much because its known we are going to move him. Thats not an issue if theres a bidding war for him.

After what happened in these playoffs...so many upsets. Blues making the finals with what I wouldnt consider a "stacked team". You know there are GMs out there now wanting to add a player or two to possibly get their team over the top too. So Kessel's age isnt as big of a deal as most think . I'm sure for some teams it is, but we shouldn't have a problem finding multiple teams wanting to add that missing piece...especially after watching these playoffs

 

[Shady Machine]

Posted this in the other Salary Cap thread because I didn't see this one:

I get that JR has to deal in the reality that exists today, but seeing this proposed deal just pisses me off. What a colossal mess he made with the cap and roster structure since the 2017 cup win.

There are way too many mediocre to "good" players with term and close to top dollar cap hits for what they bring.

 

[Shady Machine]

I'll take 65pt Zucker over 80pt Phil, 100 times out of 100. Phil is miserable at ES and makes Geno demonstratively worse. There's really no discussion here.

Nobody's saying Rask is a good asset, but the fact remains that JJ is never rebounding--since his entire 13 year career has been atrocious. Odds aren't good that Rask rebounds, but there is a non-zero chance he does. That's more than JJ. Also, again, it's entirely possible to scratch or put Rask on the 4th line, playing him ~7 minutes a night. You can't insulate or hide a defenseman to that degree.

You're letting an emotional connection to Phil blind you. He's got to go, for his best interest as well as the team's. He played like he wanted out this season anyway. It's only a matter of time. If you think we're getting better than Zucker in terms of a 1-for-1, you're not really looking at things realistically.

I'd still prefer we went after Zucker in a separate trade and moved Phil for a mid-1st and a great prospect, like we've all been kicking around for a month, but if that's not a possibility, you go with Zucker (if Phil waives). In any event, I'm positive there are a handful of other deals on the table. It was even reported that there were talks with a handful of teams besides the Wild, and several of them were on Phil's accepted trade list.

We'll see. Nothing's going to happen until the draft, but to act like losing Phil and replacing him with Zucker is the apocalypse is shortsighted, at best. We make up a good portion of Phil's PP production when Jake moves to the top unit, and Zucker's immeasurably better at ES. I still play Zucker with Sid and Jake, so it doesn't solve Geno's problem, but it's one domino to fall out of many.

Not sure why you keep calling Zucker a 65 point player. He did it once. Phil's been an 80+ point player damn near his whole career.

 

[Shady Machine]

I mean, if I could get anything from Minny, it'd be Spurgeon and then we'd use Schultz to get Phil's replacement. But acting like Zucker is a dramatic, colossal failure as a return for Phil just isn't accurate. It's like when the entire Penguins fanbase stomped their feet and got pissed when we moved another significantly flawed, problematic, yet productive player in Neal for a better fit in Hornqvist.

It's not a trade for the sake of a trade. Phil's been on an expiring timer since the Caps series, and that he wasn't moved last summer was surprising in and of itself, but he was always gone this off-season. Zucker is a fine return if we're looking for a guy to jump right in and improve the team immediately. Rask ain't great, but he's not JJ. Even if he can't rebound, which is a possibility, we can bury him or trade him much easier than JJ, I'm sure.

Except that Kessel is much better than Neal and Zucker is worse than Hornqvist. So...

That said, I like Jason Zucker and think he is a solid replacement piece. The issue I have with the deal is you don't get the + you should by swapping out Kessel for Zucker and you have to take on Rask. I'd MUCH rather trade for Zucker+1st/prospect and buy out JJ.

 

[molon labe]

Wait so is Johnson diminishing Kessel's value or do Rask and Johnson have the same value.

 

[molon labe]

Posted this in the other Salary Cap thread because I didn't see this one:

I get that JR has to deal in the reality that exists today, but seeing this proposed deal just pisses me off. What a colossal mess he made with the cap and roster structure since the 2017 cup win.

There are way too many mediocre to "good" players with term and close to top dollar cap hits for what they bring.

You don't find the Summer fun when JR continually sheds bad defensemen via decent Forwards for mediocre returns?*

That said, we are where we are and both Kessel and Johnson need to go. Remember - there is no spoon.



*Bad defensemen he signed in the first place

 

[ImporterExporter]

I hope people realize that with the mod no trade clause Phil is absolutely going to reduce our return. We'll be lucky to get a 2nd and a B level prospect at the end of the day.

There really doesn't seem to be any reason to cling to the edges of your seats regarding Minnesota. If he hasn't waived by now, he's not going to. That's just Phil being Phil IMO.

He'll get traded. Eventually. For a return that will anger most here.

 

[molon labe]

I hope people realize that with the mod no trade clause Phil is absolutely going to reduce our return. We'll be lucky to get a 2nd and a B level prospect at the end of the day.

There really doesn't seem to be any reason to cling to the edges of your seats regarding Minnesota. If he hasn't waived by now, he's not going to. That's just Phil being Phil IMO.

He'll get traded. Eventually. For a return that will anger most here.

Debbie downer. It's Friday, ya know...

Also - with 8 teams he has to 'okay', one can reasonably assume between 2 and 4 of those teams are actual trade partners. Even if it's two, no way does a second rounder win that bidding war - at the very least you're going to get a full time roster player from one of the teams and more likely a late first. Logic would dictate that his 8 team list includes winners...meaning they're not going to have top-10 picks in the first place.

 

[Coastal Kev]

Zucker doesn't move the needle for me. I keep Phil unless we get something back that makes 100% sense.

Fire Sully= winning

 

[Peat]

Except that Kessel is much better than Neal and Zucker is worse than Hornqvist. So...

That said, I like Jason Zucker and think he is a solid replacement piece. The issue I have with the deal is you don't get the + you should by swapping out Kessel for Zucker and you have to take on Rask. I'd MUCH rather trade for Zucker+1st/prospect and buy out JJ.

This is pure stats watching, but there doesn't seem to be too much difference between Neal's last season of production here and Kessel's; and while it's harder to compare Zucker and Hornqvist due to one guy being a 5v5 specialist and the other being a PP specialist, they seem pretty comparable in terms of raw production at reasonable peak performance in that they'll both be at about 50-55 points (i.e. Zucker's one crazy season with PP time he wouldn't get here is not a reasonable peak to work from.

What's the stat watching here missing?

 

[Coastal Kev]

This is pure stats watching, but there doesn't seem to be too much difference between Neal's last season of production here and Kessel's; and while it's harder to compare Zucker and Hornqvist due to one guy being a 5v5 specialist and the other being a PP specialist, they seem pretty comparable in terms of raw production at reasonable peak performance in that they'll both be at about 50-55 points (i.e. Zucker's one crazy season with PP time he wouldn't get here is not a reasonable peak to work from.

What's the stat watching here missing?

I don't do stats... My eyes tells me that Phil is Special- Zucker is Decent

I don't trade SPECIAL for decent

 

[Empoleon8771]

I think people are ignoring the benefit of swapping Johnson for Rask if they're complaining about that deal. That is a clear benefit without a doubt, the only negative of that swap is that Johnson is cheaper than Rask. It's easier to hide a bad forward than a bad defenseman, Rask was good more recently than Johnson was good and Rask is noticeably younger than Johnson. Rask was okay in 2017-2018 (pace of 35 points, but a lot of powerplay points) and put up borderline 2C/3C performances in both 15-16 and 16-17 (plus he had a very good rookie season in 14-15). Johnson had 1 good season in 2016-2017 but has been crap otherwise in the last 5 years.

I think it was dumb for Minnesota to do it, but there's a reason that Rask brought back Niederreiter last season. It's not just Fenton being an idiot. That trade on paper was a struggling 2C/3C for a struggling 2RW, the issue is that Rask didn't improve with the trade.

Edit: I will say that I'm doubful that trade actually happens though. I think we're more likely to see something like Kessel to Nashville for Granlund.

 

[Shady Machine]

I think people are ignoring the benefit of swapping Johnson for Rask if they're complaining about that deal. That is a clear benefit without a doubt, the only negative of that swap is that Johnson is cheaper than Rask. It's easier to hide a bad forward than a bad defenseman, Rask was good more recently than Johnson was good and Rask is noticeably younger than Johnson. Rask was okay in 2017-2018 (pace of 35 points, but a lot of powerplay points) and put up borderline 2C/3C performances in both 15-16 and 16-17 (plus he had a very good rookie season in 14-15). Johnson had 1 good season in 2016-2017 but has been crap otherwise in the last 5 years.

I think it was dumb for Minnesota to do it, but there's a reason that Rask brought back Niederreiter last season. It's not just Fenton being an idiot. That trade on paper was a struggling 2C/3C for a struggling 2RW, the issue is that Rask didn't improve with the trade.

Edit: I will say that I'm doubful that trade actually happens though. I think we're more likely to see something like Kessel to Nashville for Granlund.

I honestly don't see JJ for Rask as a material benefit. Like I said, I'd much rather just buy out JJ.

We don't need another center at this point unless it's a material upgrade, I'd rather give Teddy B a legit shot and we need to shed cap.

I'm just not a fan of the deal.