Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building - Y'all got any more of them Kessel rumors

[Empoleon8771]

Waive your NTC Phil for Minnesota, you coward.

Can a mod add in the rest?

Click to read more...

 

[Will Hunting]

Yeah, it´s not a thrilling return at first glance. But more I think about it, the more I like it. Zucker plays the style of game that i love. Healthy and fast hockey, he plays the right way and he is a good player. I hate Kessel´s style, everybody should know it around here. I´m also calling for the change of identity and this would really help. The fact that we can get Zucker+ for him is probably a clear win at this point. This is a last chance to move Kessel in a reasonable way. He served his purpose here, he wasn´t that expensive for us, served a purpose and now when he is almost a negative player for us we can still get a Zucker+ for him? I like it.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

A Zucker in 65pt form makes up for the lost production from an 80pt Phil being miserable at ES. The PP production will partially be made up by Jake's promotion to the top unit, and the amount of goals against being reduced at ES probably easily covers the difference in production pretty easily.

That said, this is (potentially) just step one. We still need to find Geno his version of Jake--I think we all know Zucker's playing with Sid first and foremost, and I don't think there's a doubt that the Jake-Sid-Zucker line is going to be phenomenal. We need to decide whether Schultz is a fixture on the second pairing, or whether we should be going after a more long-term guy to eventually take over for Letang in a few years. We still, regardless of what we do with Schultz, need to find a better option for that second pairing on the left side. We need to dump Maatta, because his skating's as big an issue as JJ's single digit hockey IQ.

This is the first domino to fall, moving Phil. I hope we can get a good return, and I'm sure there are numerous options available to JR, but if nothing else, the Zucker deal is a good fall back if need be--assuming Phil waives, which is a big assumption.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The somewhat frustrating thing about these Kessel rumors is that I seriously doubt this trade will end up happening. Kessel either won't waive his NMC or he'll drag it out long enough where Minny loses interest. I think getting Zucker bad and getting rid of Johnson is basically a best case scenario move with a Kessel trade, I can't see the Pens getting better than that.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I'm still entirely open to a mid-1st and a good prospect coming back for Phil, if it comes down to it. I also think that's an absolutely attainable return for Phil.

 

[CertifiedLurker]

He served his purpose here, he wasn´t that expensive for us, served a purpose and now when he is almost a negative player for us we can still get a Zucker+ for him? I like it.

jfc... for the sake of transparency:

GF/GA, trailing, with empty net: 2/13 (-11)
GF/GA, all-situations, powerplay: 44/13 (-13)

Thats -24 on the season right off the bat on empty netters and shorties.

GF/GA, all-situations, even-strength: 56-62 (-6)
GF/GA, all-situations, 5v5: 52-44 (+8)

Not good, but not catastrophically bad.

GF/GA, all-situations, all-strengths: 100-75 (+25)

Like it wasn't a great season for him, he obviously f***ed up quite a bit this year just off the eye-test but if you actually think that he was borderline a NEGATIVE player... sorry but no, he still ended up helping them win more games than they lost.

 

[Turin]

Didn’t realize Elliotte Friedman basically hinted at this trade on the latest podcast, which was recorded prior to the Yohe article. He threw out there, almost randomly, that one of the biggest questions this offseason is if Kessel wants to go to Minnesota. This either has been a thing or got leaked really fast to everyone.

 

[Vegeta]

I just hate this.

Everyone always talks about players coming to Pittsburgh and getting 15 more points than their career norms if they play on Crosby's wing, but when was the last time that actually happened?

Guarentee you that Zucker becomes a 50ish point guy in the Burgh, while Kessel goes on to revamp Minny's entire offense.

And also, as much it pains me to say this, give me JJ any day if the alternative is the mutilated corpse of Viktor Rask. That dude is literally pit stank personified.

 

[Turin]

jfc... for the sake of transparency:

GF/GA, trailing, with empty net: 2/13 (-11)
GF/GA, all-situations, powerplay: 44/13 (-13)

Thats -24 on the season right off the bat on empty netters and shorties.

GF/GA, all-situations, even-strength: 56-62 (-6)
GF/GA, all-situations, 5v5: 52-44 (+8)

Not good, but not catastrophically bad.

GF/GA, all-situations, all-strengths: 100-75 (+25)

Like it wasn't a great season for him, he obviously ****ed up quite a bit this year just off the eye-test but if you actually think that he was borderline a NEGATIVE player... sorry but no, he still ended up helping them win more games than they lost.

So.. by your own admission judging by those stats his impact aside from the powerplay (he played a role in many of those SHGA’s too) was “not good”.. so 6.8 million in space for “not good”.

 

[Turin]

I just hate this.

Everyone always talks about players coming to Pittsburgh and getting 15 more points than their career norms if they play on Crosby's wing, but when was the last time that actually happened?

Guarentee you that Zucker becomes a 50ish point guy in the Burgh, while Kessel goes on to revamp Minny's entire offense.

And also, as much it pains me to say this, give me JJ any day if the alternative is the mutilated corpse of Viktor Rask. That dude is literally pit stank personified.

Kessel can revamp that offense all he wants as he also revamps their standard for defensive commitment.

 

[Vegeta]

Kessel can revamp that offense all he wants as he also revamps their standard for defensive commitment.

Kessel's lack of defense was the least of our defensive woes.

This team's luxuriously paid, garbage tower blueline is what cost us more than anything. And aside from JJ, word is, they'll all still be here.

 

[Turin]

Kessel's lack of defense was the least of our defensive woes.

This team's luxuriously paid, garbage tower blueline is what cost us more than anything. And aside from JJ, word is, they'll all still be here.

It’s not, and the numbers highlight that. Kessel sucks defensively and doesn’t want to play away from Geno, this dragging him down. It is necessary that he goes barring an attitude adjustment when it comes to playing on the third line.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I just hate this.

Everyone always talks about players coming to Pittsburgh and getting 15 more points than their career norms if they play on Crosby's wing, but when was the last time that actually happened?

Guarentee you that Zucker becomes a 50ish point guy in the Burgh, while Kessel goes on to revamp Minny's entire offense.

And also, as much it pains me to say this, give me JJ any day if the alternative is the mutilated corpse of Viktor Rask. That dude is literally pit stank personified.

First of all, Zucker scored 65pts a year ago with nothing close to Sid and Jake as linemates. Secondly, Phil's a friggin' disaster at ES--which, last I checked, is like 17 of his 20 minutes a game. He throws a tantrum if he doesn't play with Geno, and they make each other dramatically worse.

As for JJ/Rask; JJ is 32 and has been a colossal failure for his entire 13 year career. Rask is two seasons removed from a 50pt campaign, is 26, and could potentially rebound. Even if he doesn't, it's a Hell of a lot easier to shelter a forward than a blueliner.

People need to remove themselves from this emotional attachment to players. I love Phil, I'm glad he was an important part of two Cups, but he's served his purpose and now the bad far outweighs the good. A Zucker return is probably as good as we'll get in terms of roster players who can step in and immediately play for us, and Rask, while not exactly a great player/contract himself, has an infinitely better shot at rebounding here than JJ ever will. Ever.

 

[ChaosAgent]

It’s not, and the numbers highlight that. Kessel sucks defensively and doesn’t want to play away from Geno, this dragging him down. It is necessary that he goes barring an attitude adjustment when it comes to playing on the third line.

It's not necessarily that he sucks defensively. He sucks, like he is the single worst forward on the team, at getting and retaining possession of the puck. As a by-product, the team frequently plays without the puck while he's on the ice. That means they'll be playing in the defensive zone. Geno isn't the center you want in that situation.

 

[Turin]

It's not necessarily that he sucks defensively. He sucks, like he is the single worst forward on the team, at getting and retaining possession of the puck. As a by-product, the team frequently plays without the puck while he's on the ice. That means they'll be playing in the defensive zone. Geno isn't the center you want in that situation.

That’s like.. what defense is.. plus he doesn’t block shots or hit.. so..

 

[ChaosAgent]

That’s like.. what defense is.. plus he doesn’t block shots or hit.. so..

True, but I'd also say it happens in the offensive zone as well. Kessel will flub his way out of possession or give terrible effort leading to a chance against.

I think we're saying the same thing, I just want to point out that the sucktitude at possession hockey extends past our own blueline with Phil.

 

[Vegeta]

First of all, Zucker scored 65pts a year ago with nothing close to Sid and Jake as linemates. Secondly, Phil's a friggin' disaster at ES--which, last I checked, is like 17 of his 20 minutes a game. He throws a tantrum if he doesn't play with Geno, and they make each other dramatically worse.

And 2 seasons ago Phil had 92 points and we scoffed at the idea of trading him.

Do you follow the Wild at all? Like even a smidgen?

Go ask those who watch them if Rask will ever sniff anywhere near 20 points again, let alone 50. He's a borderline AHLer now, who is owed $4m a season. And he plays centre, a position we do not need at all. You will all hate him very damn quickly.

As for Zucker, he's a one dimensional winger. Even worse than Phil in that regard.

Terrible at backchecking like Phil, so no improvement there. He lacks ANY creative ability. You all hated James Neal, well, meet his lesser cousin.

The only thing Zucker has is speed. He misses most of his breakaway opportunities, and has a penchant for missing his chances. He also lacks the ability to create his own space.


I'm not totally against trading Phil, but this is not the way to go about it.

Edit: And before anyone calls him a former 30 goal scorer, Zucker had 7 damn empty netters in 17-18. Again, thanks to his speed, but he is not a "sniper" and he never has been.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I'm really worried about Rask. He may be even worse than JJ for us. I'd really, really rather us buy out JJ then get another albatross as a result.

I'd like to do Kessel for Zucker straight up and just buy out JJ.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Phil Kessel

The Good; Elite shot, great playmaking ability, good wheels that can push guys back on the rush and create space to use his shot/pass

The Bad; Temperamental, doesn't use his shot, wears out his welcome among those who have to coach/get the most out of him on a nightly basis, refuses to control his emotions and they end up dictating his play, miserable without the puck/defensively, 32 and the wheels are going to fall off sooner than later

Dude's gotta go. Thanks for all you did, Phil, but you were always a disposable asset. You served your purpose. Godspeed. Both parties, I think, would be best served to move on--and they will.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

And 2 seasons ago Phil had 92 points and we scoffed at the idea of trading him.

Do you follow the Wild at all? Like even a smidgen?

Go ask those who watch them if Rask will ever sniff anywhere near 20 points again, let alone 50. He's a borderline AHLer now, who is owed $4m a season. And he plays centre, a position we do not need at all. You will all hate him very damn quickly.

As for Zucker, he's a one dimensional winger. Even worse than Phil in that regard.

Terrible at backchecking like Phil, so no improvement there. He lacks ANY creative ability. You all hated James Neal, well, meet his lesser cousin.

The only thing Zucker has is speed. He misses most of his breakaway opportunities, and has a penchant for missing his chances. He also lacks the ability to create his own space.


I'm not totally against trading Phil, but this is not the way to go about it.

Edit: And before anyone calls him a former 30 goal scorer, Zucker had 7 damn empty netters in 17-18. Again, thanks to his speed, but he is not a "sniper" and he never has been.

I'll take 65pt Zucker over 80pt Phil, 100 times out of 100. Phil is miserable at ES and makes Geno demonstratively worse. There's really no discussion here.

Nobody's saying Rask is a good asset, but the fact remains that JJ is never rebounding--since his entire 13 year career has been atrocious. Odds aren't good that Rask rebounds, but there is a non-zero chance he does. That's more than JJ. Also, again, it's entirely possible to scratch or put Rask on the 4th line, playing him ~7 minutes a night. You can't insulate or hide a defenseman to that degree.

You're letting an emotional connection to Phil blind you. He's got to go, for his best interest as well as the team's. He played like he wanted out this season anyway. It's only a matter of time. If you think we're getting better than Zucker in terms of a 1-for-1, you're not really looking at things realistically.

I'd still prefer we went after Zucker in a separate trade and moved Phil for a mid-1st and a great prospect, like we've all been kicking around for a month, but if that's not a possibility, you go with Zucker (if Phil waives). In any event, I'm positive there are a handful of other deals on the table. It was even reported that there were talks with a handful of teams besides the Wild, and several of them were on Phil's accepted trade list.

We'll see. Nothing's going to happen until the draft, but to act like losing Phil and replacing him with Zucker is the apocalypse is shortsighted, at best. We make up a good portion of Phil's PP production when Jake moves to the top unit, and Zucker's immeasurably better at ES. I still play Zucker with Sid and Jake, so it doesn't solve Geno's problem, but it's one domino to fall out of many.

 

[Vegeta]

I'll take 65pt Zucker over 80pt Phil, 100 times out of 100. Phil is miserable at ES and makes Geno demonstratively worse. There's really no discussion here.

Nobody's saying Rask is a good asset, but the fact remains that JJ is never rebounding--since his entire 13 year career has been atrocious. Odds aren't good that Rask rebounds, but there is a non-zero chance he does. That's more than JJ. Also, again, it's entirely possible to scratch or put Rask on the 4th line, playing him ~7 minutes a night. You can't insulate or hide a defenseman to that degree.

You're letting an emotional connection to Phil blind you. He's got to go, for his best interest as well as the team's. He played like he wanted out this season anyway. It's only a matter of time. If you think we're getting better than Zucker in terms of a 1-for-1, you're not really looking at things realistically.

I'd still prefer we went after Zucker in a separate trade and moved Phil for a mid-1st and a great prospect, like we've all been kicking around for a month, but if that's not a possibility, you go with Zucker (if Phil waives). In any event, I'm positive there are a handful of other deals on the table. It was even reported that there were talks with a handful of teams besides the Wild, and several of them were on Phil's accepted trade list.

We'll see. Nothing's going to happen until the draft, but to act like losing Phil and replacing him with Zucker is the apocalypse is shortsighted, at best. We make up a good portion of Phil's PP production when Jake moves to the top unit, and Zucker's immeasurably better at ES. I still play Zucker with Sid and Jake, so it doesn't solve Geno's problem, but it's one domino to fall out of many.

I don't have an emotional attachment to Phil, I just believe this is poor asset management.

Again, I think it's asking a lot from Zucker to repeat his 17-18 season. From what I have seen, and judging by his overall skillset, 50+ points is what I would expect from him.

I could be wrong, but acting like 65+ is a given is folly.

Also, Phil's 5 on 5 play has been horrid. I get that. But special teams points are still points. At the end of the day, goals on the board are all that really matters, and Phil still contributes that in spades.

With his sweetheart cap hit, he certainly should have more value than Zucker and Rask. Heck, if we were getting a top 4 D instead of Zucker I'd be more than fine with this.

Moving him for a lesser winger just screams "trade for the sake of trade".

 

[Turin]

Go to Minnesota, Phil.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I don't have an emotional attachment to Phil, I just believe this is poor asset management.

Again, I think it's asking a lot from Zucker to repeat his 17-18 season. From what I have seen, and judging by his overall skillset, 50+ points is what I would expect from him.

I could be wrong, but acting like 65+ is a given is folly.

Also, Phil's 5 on 5 play has been horrid. I get that. But special teams points are still points. At the end of the day, goals on the board are all that really matters, and Phil still contributes that in spades.

With his sweetheart cap hit, he certainly should have more value than Zucker and Rask. Heck, if we were getting a top 4 D instead of Zucker I'd be more than fine with this.

Moving him for a lesser winger just screams "trade for the sake of trade".

I mean, if I could get anything from Minny, it'd be Spurgeon and then we'd use Schultz to get Phil's replacement. But acting like Zucker is a dramatic, colossal failure as a return for Phil just isn't accurate. It's like when the entire Penguins fanbase stomped their feet and got pissed when we moved another significantly flawed, problematic, yet productive player in Neal for a better fit in Hornqvist.

It's not a trade for the sake of a trade. Phil's been on an expiring timer since the Caps series, and that he wasn't moved last summer was surprising in and of itself, but he was always gone this off-season. Zucker is a fine return if we're looking for a guy to jump right in and improve the team immediately. Rask ain't great, but he's not JJ. Even if he can't rebound, which is a possibility, we can bury him or trade him much easier than JJ, I'm sure.

 

[Peat]

What probably was the case was that someone caught wind of Kessel doing research on joining the Wild, and they started digging deeper and found that.

To get wind of/find something reliable while digging deeper still involves someone in the know deciding it is in their interest for the information to be leaked.

Eh, I suppose, but it still doesn't make as much sense to me as if JR's camp leaked it. If Phil's not happy with a potential Minnesota deal, he just blocks it. Again, everybody in the hockey world knows Phil's gone. I'm sure JR is fielding calls from a dozen teams right now that are, at the very least, kicking the tires--half of which are probably getting down to specifics when it comes to assets/players changing hands.

I wish we didn't have to wait another month for something to actually get done, though, and I'm still hoping we can manage to eek out a mid-1st in whatever deal we choose for Phil.

But we can be 99.9% certain Rutherford/the Pens didn't leak it, so we start looking at the alternatives.

I think assuming this is a binary Happy/Not Happy choice could be wrong, particularly when Kessel's been asked and still not said Yes or No. I think there's a bunch of ways this could play out, and in that scenario there'll be a sliding scale of preferred situations for Kessel and, since he's not said Yes or No yet, it's not particularly high but nor is it bottom.

And hockey orgs/agents leak rumours about possible trades to drum up interest in an asset that everybody knows is available all the time.

 

[JackFr]

Can we please call this thread "Reverse Kessel Watch"