Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building - XXX

[Will Hunting]

You fix some of it by having those players kick on and advance under the coaches, like some of them should. Trying to fix all of our problems with big value trades isn't a feasible option.

Also, by having the forwards actually play some defence.

They will also try to add a TOP4 D, either now on at least at TDL, I guess.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

We did not think it was possible for Brassard or Pearson to end up on Line 4, either, yet it happened.

Point being, is Jason Zucker 100% a Mike Sullivan player?

If there is even a shred of doubt, don't trade for him.

 

[Shady Machine]

We did not think it was possible for Brassard or Pearson to end up on Line 4, either, yet it happened.

Point being, is Jason Zucker 100% a Mike Sullivan player?

If there is even a shred of doubt, don't trade for him.

Zucker can skate. That makes a big difference, but you bring up a fair point. He has to be a Sully player.

 

[Peat]

Zucker can skate. That makes a big difference, but you bring up a fair point. He has to be a Sully player.

Those two guys could skate too, although not quite like Zucker.

Their problems were injuries, loss of confidence, and maybe attitude and fit. You have no way of knowing about the first two, nobody here knows about Zucker's attitude... and the fit looks good. But so did Pearson's.

*shrugs* Nothing is certain. Don't see the need to get hung up on that, albeit while noting Zucker goes very wrong if it goes wrong.

 

[Shady Machine]

Those two guys could skate too, although not quite like Zucker.

Their problems were injuries, loss of confidence, and maybe attitude and fit. You have no way of knowing about the first two, nobody here knows about Zucker's attitude... and the fit looks good. But so did Pearson's.

*shrugs* Nothing is certain. Don't see the need to get hung up on that, albeit while noting Zucker goes very wrong if it goes wrong.

Pearson and Brass were average skaters in terms of acceleration and straight ahead speed. Zucker's speed is a legitimate asset closer to Rust who is an obvious Sully player. Doesn't mean Zucker is a slam dunk, but he's a more natural fit.

 

[pistolpete11]

You fix some of it by having those players kick on and advance under the coaches, like some of them should. Trying to fix all of our problems with big value trades isn't a feasible option.

Also, by having the forwards actually play some defence.

I don't mean 'the defense' as in team defense. I mean as in the defensemen.

And I never suggested fixing it with big value trades. Actually, I said I don't see how it can be fixed. Dumping JMFJ and Maatta is going to be tough enough and then you're just hoping that Pets is ready for a top 4 role, Ruh/Riikola are actually top 6 defensemen, Gud can continue to be solid based on a ~20 game sample, and that your top 3 defensemen stay healthy (which might be the biggest stretch out of the bunch). That's a very precarious situation to be in for a team with Cup aspirations IMO. Maybe I'm just being pessimistic, but JR has a lot of work to do to make me feel comfortable with the defensemen going into the season and quite frankly, I don't think he will be able to do it.

 

[Tom Hanks]

We did not think it was possible for Brassard or Pearson to end up on Line 4, either, yet it happened.

Point being, is Jason Zucker 100% a Mike Sullivan player?

If there is even a shred of doubt, don't trade for him.

How often was Brassard on the 4th line because he was 6th in ES ice time for the forwards (Pearson was 7th)?

Can’t say Brassard didn’t deserve it either at times but the point is it’s not really a problem given that at times it was deserved and also rarely happened. Zucker is a better player and a better fit too.

 

[Riptide]

Hard to say what JR's philosophy atm is after his "deep dive".
If he was still full "push back" i don't see him trading JJ so fast, so theres that...
We'll just have to see with the moves that are actually made vs those that almost happened.

Except he has an even better version of "push back" in Gudbranson who's actually been a good player for us. Add in some poor play, cap issues and new players stepping up (Gudbranson/Pettersson), and it's not really a surprise that he wants to move on from JJ.

 

[Snooki Stackhouse]

In the past couple years, one of my biggest problems with Rutherford is how his moves don't seem to align with what Sullivan wants. I get that technically JR is the boss, but those two need to better collaborate on these roster decisions. Otherwise whatever JR is doing is going to get all f***ed up in January when Sullivan decides he doesn't like these guys.

 

[Riptide]

Also need to comment on Guds, I've seen a few posts the past page or two labelling him as "young"...he's 27. He should be at his prime right now. Can't comment on his overall play since I missed a ton of games at the end of last year so don't feel like I have a personal sample size, but I have a suspicion that people who think he's going to improve next year will be disappointed.

That's just it... he doesn't need to improve. If he plays the exact same way he did for us this year, he's fine - more than fine actually. And well worth his 4m cap hit. Here's s quote from @Peat that should put it in context.

Gudbranson's results for us - at least RS - were off the charts good. The relative possession stats he had for us would, if put among the entire NHL (dmen playing 600+ minutes) have made him 8th (Corsi), 28th (Fenwick), 40th (Shots), 6th (Scoring Chances) and 2 (High Danger Chances). He did that logging big minutes and with 42% offensive zone starts - only 3 players in the top 30 for relative corsi had less than 50% zone starts. Most of those games he was primarily against opposition top lines.

Now he didn't look as impressive as those numbers. But he didn't look so bad that those numbers shouldn't rank him as a lot better than "a bit better than horrendous".

 

[Burn]

Zucker is a Sullivan type. Chips, chases and gets to the offensive end fast with little creativity.

Kind of like Dupuis without the bomb shot.

IMO hes more of the same and that's a problem.

 

[Tom Hanks]

Zucker is a Sullivan type. Chips, chases and gets to the offensive end fast with little creativity.

Kind of like Dupuis without the bomb shot.

IMO hes more of the same and that's a problem.

Who’s fast on our team that plays hard and puts pressure on and is able to score at a good rate with decent enough skill?

McCann, Rust and he’s better than them. I feel like we don’t have enough of those guys. It showed in the playoffs.

 

[Peat]

So are we not going to sign Lazuon? He can re-enter the draft if not signed by saturday. I guess with his injuries its not worth it.

Dunno if this was ever answered but I presume not - I read that they plan to invite him to development camp, but my guess is that will be with the hope of handing out an AHL contract and seeing whether he can stay fit and catch up.

They will also try to add a TOP4 D, either now on at least at TDL, I guess.

Maybe - or somewhere in between, which seems to be Rutherford's favoured trading period - but we do have a lot of young guys who could really kick on and I think its uncertain what happens until we see how those and bounceback guys do.

Pearson and Brass were average skaters in terms of acceleration and straight ahead speed. Zucker's speed is a legitimate asset closer to Rust who is an obvious Sully player. Doesn't mean Zucker is a slam dunk, but he's a more natural fit.

I thought Brassard was a good skater. Pearson maybe a bit average, but better than guys that have stuck. In either case, I'd continue to emphasise that skating isn't why they failed.

Zucker does look like a Sully guy though from what I've seen.

I don't mean 'the defense' as in team defense. I mean as in the defensemen.

But how the defence goes will depend on the team they're in. There were guys who were very bad for the defence to play behind, and guys who were very good. If the team trends back to the latter, the defence will look better regardless.

As for the rest - yes, you're pessimistic. With some good reasons, but still pessimistic.

 

[iFishyHD]

No way Minnesota would bite on it but Hornqvist/Johnson for Zucker/Rask would be nuts.

 

[SEALBound]

Speaking of Gudbranson - I'm incredibly split on him. Part of me loves what he did to the defensive corps and the lineup in general. He's still young, he has pedigree. The salary is my hang up.

I think we can all confortably say none of us are thrilled with him at $4mil. He's indeed overpaid but not by much. Fact is, he was quite good for us since the TDL. His adv stats are stellar. Hes a long way away from the player he was in Vancouver. With that, yes $4mil is a little much when we talk about value contracts but not everyone can have one of those. Those are typically a season by season occurance unless something special happens and the players busts out (think MacKinnon, Ekholm, etc). But then they get rewarded come UFA time.

Say we dump him for nothing. Slate is clean. In my opinion, I dont think you can replace what he brings for $4mil in the current FA market. If you want to replace him, you have to sign someone. And right now, I think to get similar skill sets, you will pay more. Its the nature of the league.

They said Rust.

That would make sense to be honest. Doubt we see a Rask-JJ swap there though. I think we add too.

I could see the following happening which would make sense for both teams...

Bjugstad & Johnson
For
Zucker & Rask

Bjugstad would return home to Minny. Minny saves cap space, gets younger, size and a hometown boy.

Zucker would fit in well with Sid and Guentzel.

JR drafted Rask and can try him out on the 3rd line center (replace Bjugstad). Bye bye Johnson.

Pens add a little bit of salary but overall, the pieces would be better suited for both teams.

Thats not totally unreasonable. Interesting thought looking forward, if you send Bjugs out you have a 3C gap. If you deal Kessel to Dallas for Faksa, Honka, Nuke, you get your 3C replacement.

Jake-Sid-McCann
Zucker-Malkin-Nuke
Simon-Faksa-Horny
ZAR-Rask-Blueger

Dumo-letang
Pettersson-schultz
Honka-Gudbrason

Round about what to get what you want. Just depends on how JR feels about Bjugs to Faksa.

I still don't see how JR fixes this defense. Dumps JMFJ. Great. Dumps Maatta. Good. But I'm not completely sold on Pets being a top 4D, Ruh/Riikola being an everyday player, or Gud being a rock for the 3rd pairing. And even more frightening, Letang, Schultz, or Dumo injuries (which seems like an inevitability with the former 2).

He's already shopping JJ, Maatta may have a couple suitors and could easily go for a pick, he's resigned two young puck movers in Riikola and Rudwedel...and the Cup finals aren't even over.

JR is doing fine at this point.

Rust for Zucker is a fair trade value wise but we’re gaining $2 mil in cap space that might not be justified unless 2017-18 Zucker reappears...

Fair for Minnesota in the sense Nino for Rask or the Coyle trade was fair. I think we add to Rust. Dont get me wrong I would cheer from the mountain tops to get Zucker for Rust but Im not expecting a straight swap.

Before we commit $5.5 million for the next four seasons to Zucker and trade away an asset to get him, we better be 150% certain that he will not wind up on the fourth line by December.

I think you run that risk with every player though...that shouldn't be a major deterrent to not get someone. In the 2017 cup run, Jake was on the 4th line for a bit.

Pearson and Brass were average skaters in terms of acceleration and straight ahead speed. Zucker's speed is a legitimate asset closer to Rust who is an obvious Sully player. Doesn't mean Zucker is a slam dunk, but he's a more natural fit.

While I agree with your assessment of Perron and Brass, I think theres more to be being a Sullivan player than speed. I think we can point to several slower guys that were Sullivan guys. I think Sullivan wants guys who will use that speed inside the system he creates. With that, use that speed to be defensively responsible too.

Kessel has speed...I dont see him as a Sully guy. Bonino and Horny dont have lightning speed...but they were Sully guys.

I think this year is going to focus heavily on team cohesion, chemistry, and buy-in to the system.

 

[BHD]

In regards to Pearson and Brass, neither of them did much to warrant prominent roles. Pearson was average and Brassard was a disappointment. Agree on the point about 'Sully players' though.

 

[iFishyHD]

1. Phil Kessel, RW (PIT)
2. Jacob Trouba, RD (WPG)
3. Jason Zucker, LW (MIN)
4. Nikita Zaitsev, RD (TOR)
5. PK Subban, RD (NSH)
6. Ryan Callahan, RW (TBL)
7. Micheal Frolik, LW (CGY)
8. Kyle Turris, C (NSH)
9. Kevin Shattenkirk, RD (NYR)
10. Shayne Gostisbehere, LD (PHI)
11. Travis Hamonic, RD (CGY)
12. Connor Brown, RW (TOR)
13. Olli Maatta, LD (PIT)
14. Colin Miller, RD (VGK)
15. James Reimer, G (FLA)
16. Artemi Panarin, LW (CBJ)
17. Nazem Kadri, C (TOR)
18. Jack Johnson, D (PIT)
19. Milan Lucic, LW (EDM)
20. Loui Eriksson, LW (VAN)
21. Mike Hoffman, LW (FLA)
22. Artem Anisimov. C (CHI)
23. Adam Henrique. C (ANA)
24. Victor Rask, C (MIN)
25. Mitch Marner, RW (TOR)

This offseason should be wild.

 

[Malkinstheman]

How is Panarin on that list. Trading for rights has been dead for a while

 

[Kristopher Letang]

1. Phil Kessel, RW (PIT)
2. Jacob Trouba, RD (WPG)
3. Jason Zucker, LW (MIN)
4. Nikita Zaitsev, RD (TOR)
5. PK Subban, RD (NSH)
6. Ryan Callahan, RW (TBL)
7. Micheal Frolik, LW (CGY)
8. Kyle Turris, C (NSH)
9. Kevin Shattenkirk, RD (NYR)
10. Shayne Gostisbehere, LD (PHI)
11. Travis Hamonic, RD (CGY)
12. Connor Brown, RW (TOR)
13. Olli Maatta, LD (PIT)
14. Colin Miller, RD (VGK)
15. James Reimer, G (FLA)
16. Artemi Panarin, LW (CBJ)
17. Nazem Kadri, C (TOR)
18. Jack Johnson, D (PIT)
19. Milan Lucic, LW (EDM)
20. Loui Eriksson, LW (VAN)
21. Mike Hoffman, LW (FLA)
22. Artem Anisimov. C (CHI)
23. Adam Henrique. C (ANA)
24. Victor Rask, C (MIN)
25. Mitch Marner, RW (TOR)

This offseason should be wild.

Can’t wait.

 

[mpp9]

In regards to Pearson and Brass, neither of them did much to warrant prominent roles. Pearson was average and Brassard was a disappointment. Agree on the point about 'Sully players' though.

That's how it is with every coach.

A coach plays players who play his system best.

 

[Malkinstheman]

Anything good in this?

 

[BHD]

That's how it is with every coach.

A coach plays players who play his system best.

Yes, but I don't think any too many coaches would feel compelled to play them. Pearson got a bit more ice time in Vancouver, but they're forward group is (again) average.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

I don't mean 'the defense' as in team defense. I mean as in the defensemen.

And I never suggested fixing it with big value trades. Actually, I said I don't see how it can be fixed. Dumping JMFJ and Maatta is going to be tough enough and then you're just hoping that Pets is ready for a top 4 role, Ruh/Riikola are actually top 6 defensemen, Gud can continue to be solid based on a ~20 game sample, and that your top 3 defensemen stay healthy (which might be the biggest stretch out of the bunch). That's a very precarious situation to be in for a team with Cup aspirations IMO. Maybe I'm just being pessimistic, but JR has a lot of work to do to make me feel comfortable with the defensemen going into the season and quite frankly, I don't think he will be able to do it.

Well, nobody around here was 'comfortable' with the 2017 blueline in the playoffs either and they were able to win.

I suspect the vast majority will not be comfortable here if Jack Johnson is still on the team in September. I suspect most will not be comfortable if Gudbranson is still on the team in September. Some will be uncomfortable if Schultz is still here. Everybody will be uncomfortable if Maatta is still here (unlike Johnson, Maatta has trade value imo).

I think you run that risk with every player though...that shouldn't be a major deterrent to not get someone. In the 2017 cup run, Jake was on the 4th line for a bit.

Putting a kid on the fourth line, no matter how talented, is very different than putting a guy occupying a chunk of cap space on Line 4.

Our acquired assets have been depreciating in value under Sullivan. That has to change.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Thank god we’re in the running for the next Pascaqule D’prix. I can’t tell you how sad I’ve been that we haven’t had someone shooting right into the chest protectors with any sort of regularity since, god knows when.

 

[molon labe]

1. Phil Kessel, RW (PIT)
2. Jacob Trouba, RD (WPG)
3. Jason Zucker, LW (MIN)
4. Nikita Zaitsev, RD (TOR)
5. PK Subban, RD (NSH)
6. Ryan Callahan, RW (TBL)
7. Micheal Frolik, LW (CGY)
8. Kyle Turris, C (NSH)
9. Kevin Shattenkirk, RD (NYR)
10. Shayne Gostisbehere, LD (PHI)
11. Travis Hamonic, RD (CGY)
12. Connor Brown, RW (TOR)
13. Olli Maatta, LD (PIT)
14. Colin Miller, RD (VGK)
15. James Reimer, G (FLA)
16. Artemi Panarin, LW (CBJ)
17. Nazem Kadri, C (TOR)
18. Jack Johnson, D (PIT)
19. Milan Lucic, LW (EDM)
20. Loui Eriksson, LW (VAN)
21. Mike Hoffman, LW (FLA)
22. Artem Anisimov. C (CHI)
23. Adam Henrique. C (ANA)
24. Victor Rask, C (MIN)
25. Mitch Marner, RW (TOR)

This offseason should be wild.

Shattenkirk, lol. Remember when there were thread titles alluding his acquisition to a 'sweepstakes' ? Stupid, over-used term here on HF when it comes middle-road players.

Marner is an interesting option though (not for the Pens). Is he really worth 11M to a team that already has two guys over 10? Toronto would get a kings' ransom for that dude and I'm not sure it wouldn't be the right way to go... idk.