Salary Cap: Salary Cap + Roster Building | Well, now what?

[Dipsy Doodle]

Your link wont load. But I do not see GMJR trading Olli ether. While he is a whipping boy around the Penguins fan base right now, I do not believe the organization views him in the same manner as the fan base at the moment. So even though I can not see your salary roster, you have to look at Guentzel getting any where from 4.75-5.5M, then subtract Olli being traded and your numbers are probably slimmer than you had them.

It's possible JR doesn't see Olli as expendable as I do. I'm just offering up what I think would be better for the team. If it comes down to Olli plus Sheahan or Brass plus Olli replacement, I'm taking the latter.

 

[Riptide]

Never said we overpaid in terms of assets for Sheahan. However, the team was looking for an upgrade all along and set him up for UFA in part because they STILL had not settled the 3C issue. And we'll just have to disagree that the assets spent for 2 years of Brassard for 3C were worth it, especially considering he isn't even a lock to play that role.

They set him up for UFA with a 1 yr deal for 3 reasons.
1) Because in July we already had Brassard for this season, and there was no little we were going to move him.
2) Because of the cap. We couldn't afford to pay Sheahan much more than the 2m he got.
3) Because there was little reason to give him a long term contract last summer. We have no clue how things will play out, and there's little point in committing to a depth guy (even one in an important role) until you have to unless you're completely in love with him. And Sheahan will always be a "2nd best" option for us. He's good, and he can be effective... but he's not that big sexy name that Brassard is. I could easily see the org going either way with him this summer (extending for him to be 3c, or letting him walk), and neither would surprise me in the least.

And what would have a good skilled top 6 winger with a 3m cap hit and 1.5 yrs left on his contract cost? You're still looking at a 1st+ for that. Hell Winnipeg gave up a 1st for a rental in Stastny. The cost we gave up for Brassard while not cheap, certainly wasn't expensive.

 

[Spoonman32]

So you wanted to pay Bones a ton of money for a long period of time when he showed himself to be fairly injury prone and had only a magical 4 month run of success with the Pens?
Because they tried HBK the following year and it was putrid, so much that Kessel was moved away from Bones.

But yea that totally would've worked out for the Pens

I remember reading Bonino was willing to take a little less than what he signed for to stay. A shade under 4M is hardly a "ton" of money for what he brings. And what you call "magical", I call "proven". I'd take his "putrid" reagular season as long as he brings in when it counts the most. Especially given what everyone knew what it was likely to cost to replace him via trade.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

For what Brassard cost us I don’t understand why people say it was a high cost.

UFA Ian Cole, a goaltender that likely never plays here anyway due to us having 2 legitimate goaltending prospects, and a 1st.

It was a great deal value-wise. Yet if he keeps getting used like he has been lately, it's still not going to have been worth it. 1LW or 3C with Rust as his main offensive winger isn't going to cut it.

Maybe Horny and Simon can do something productive with Brass. I'm not optimistic, but at least he's playing the right position now.

 

[Riptide]

Okay so he can succeed anywhere I guess. I just thought the idea was to have 3 lines with Sid, Geno, and Kessel on each to give a balance attack?...I thought that was the thinking...maybe I am wrong.

It's hard to argue production and they certainly have been that so far this year...

You're not wrong... just that it doesn't mean Kessel has to like it. And based on last season... he didn't. I mean he had HBK and they were super successful, and we won. No way is he going to complain about that. The following season we tried like hell for HBK to work and it didn't, so we abandoned it and he played with Malkin and we won.

Last season we struggled as a team, and Kessel specifically struggled. Maybe his thinking was that if he'd been with Malkin they could have scored a few more goals, and thus gone a little further... who knows. But I think we as fans forget how egotistical these players can be. These are very driven individuals who are among the best in the world at their profession... and they want like hell to win. Maybe Kessel was just venting because he was frustrated that for the first time in his Pens career, they lost? IDK. But it's pretty easy as a fan to look and understand why the org wants Kessel on L3, while also understanding why he'd rather be on L1/2.

 

[Riptide]

I remember reading Bonino was willing to take a little less than what he signed for to stay. A shade under 4M is hardly a "ton" of money for what he brings. And what you call "magical", I call "proven". I'd take his "putrid" reagular season as long as he brings in when it counts the most. Especially given what everyone knew what it was likely to cost to replace him via trade.

Except that's just it - he didn't do that consistently. He had 1 great PO run, and then he had one decent, but unspectacular PO run. That's not worth 4m.

 

[Spoonman32]

They set him up for UFA with a 1 yr deal for 3 reasons.
1) Because in July we already had Brassard for this season, and there was no little we were going to move him.
2) Because of the cap. We couldn't afford to pay Sheahan much more than the 2m he got.
3) Because there was little reason to give him a long term contract last summer. We have no clue how things will play out, and there's little point in committing to a depth guy (even one in an important role) until you have to unless you're completely in love with him. And Sheahan will always be a "2nd best" option for us. He's good, and he can be effective... but he's not that big sexy name that Brassard is. I could easily see the org going either way with him this summer (extending for him to be 3c, or letting him walk), and neither would surprise me in the least.

And what would have a good skilled top 6 winger with a 3m cap hit and 1.5 yrs left on his contract cost? You're still looking at a 1st+ for that. Hell Winnipeg gave up a 1st for a rental in Stastny. The cost we gave up for Brassard while not cheap, certainly wasn't expensive.

The thing is, we are hardly getting what we paid for. Brassard has yet to fit and be a difference maker.

 

[Riptide]

The thing is, we are hardly getting what we paid for. Brassard has yet to fit and be a difference maker.

It's been what... 5 games? Hard to get worked up about that when most of the team has played like crap. Give it another 15-20 then bitch.

 

[Spoonman32]

Except that's just it - he didn't do that consistently. He had 1 great PO run, and then he had one decent, but unspectacular PO run. That's not worth 4m.

That's where we disagree.

 

[Gurglesons]

It was a great deal value-wise. Yet if he keeps getting used like he has been lately, it's still not going to have been worth it. 1LW or 3C with Rust as his main offensive winger isn't going to cut it.

Maybe Horny and Simon can do something productive with Brass. I'm not optimistic, but at least he's playing the right position now.

Brassard has looked good when healthy.

That is the only way I can judge the trade, tbh.

I don’t fault Shero for his usage of Iginla.

 

[Riptide]

That's where we disagree. [Bonino being worth 4m]

We're paying Sheahan 2.1m, and if we extend him long term, will be paying him around 3.5m (give or take a little) at the upper end of things. Why would we voluntarily pay more for a player that isn't any better? Because at ES not counting HBK's hot streak that wasn't repeatable, Bonino isn't any better then Sheahan.

 

[Gurglesons]

We're paying Sheahan 2.1m, and if we extend him long term, will be paying him around 3.5m (give or take a little) at the upper end of things. Why would we voluntarily pay more for a player that isn't any better? Because at ES not counting HBK's hot streak that wasn't repeatable, Bonino isn't any better then Sheahan.

I think Bonino is better than Sheahan by 500K. He also is way older though.

 

[Riptide]

I think Bonino is better than Sheahan by 500K. He also is way older though.

And slower, more injury prone and worse in the circle. He was a little better scoring goals. I think he's also a little better offensively smart's wise, but other than when HBK was hot, that didn't really translate into production, so it's harder to measure that. He could go on the PP, something Sheahan likely can't do as effectively, but given some of our other players (Guentzel could easily center PP2), that's not worth a ton.

 

[Gurglesons]

And slower, more injury prone and worse in the circle. He was a little better scoring goals. I think he's also a little better offensively smart's wise, but other than when HBK was hot, that didn't really translate into production, so it's harder to measure that. He could go on the PP, something Sheahan likely can't do as effectively, but given some of our other players (Guentzel could easily center PP2), that's not worth a ton.

I’d argue he is much better defensively for this team. Watching him positionally versus Sheahan some nights is night and day.

Him and Cullen put on a clinic in 2017.

 

[Spoonman32]

It's been what... 5 games? Hard to get worked up about that when most of the team has played like crap. Give it another 15-20 then *****.

Are people still using the "he needs more time" excuse to defend the guy?

I want to ask an honest question to the biggest supporters of that trade: Were any of you surprised by the comments made by the coach and Brassard himself on locker clean out day regarding being open to the possibility of him playing top 6 wing on this team? Because I sure as **** was. I thought all he needed was to be healthy and we would have the upgrade over Sheahan. That was the point of the trade, no? If he's not totally on board with that role...

Kessel came from playing with Tyler Bozak. I can't see why he'd be too upset with Brassard as his center.

 

[Ryder71]

For what Brassard cost us I don’t understand why people say it was a high cost.

UFA Ian Cole, a goaltender that likely never plays here anyway due to us having 2 legitimate goaltending prospects, and a 1st.

I disagree completely. First off a first rounder is nothing to sneeze at. And we can't continue to just part with these picks if we're to contend much beyond the next couple of years. We also lost a 4th rounder I believe. Cole fetched what a 3rd rounder from CBJ FOR OTT? And while Gus would have been down our depth chart in net he was a good young asset. That's four assets we lost for a player who has had almost no impact since coming here.

And at the time I was a strong advocate for trying to get Brass, although I wasn't keen on dealing Cole. So we gave up three picks (by extension) including a 1st and a good goalie prospect for a center who's 31 and hasn't exactly lit it up here. Hopefully that changes and he becomes the player we traded for. I think that's a pretty big payment relative to what we've received to this point.

 

[Gurglesons]

I disagree completely. First off a first rounder is nothing to sneeze at. And we can't continue to just part with these picks if we're to contend much beyond the next couple of years. We also lost a 4th rounder I believe. Cole fetched what a 3rd rounder from CBJ FOR OTT? And while Gus would have been down our depth chart in net he was a good young asset. That's four assets we lost for a player who has had almost no impact since coming here.

And at the time I was a strong advocate for trying to get Brass, although I wasn't keen on dealing Cole. So we gave up three picks (by extension) including a 1st and a good goalie prospect for a center who's 31 and hasn't exactly lit it up here. Hopefully that changes and he becomes the player we traded for. But thus far I think that's a pretty big payment relative to what we've received to this point.

It was the 22nd overall pick. That is basically a Hail Mary. Highly doubt it would impact anything moving forward unless we got really lucky.

Goalie prospects have no value.

If we didn’t move Cole for a player, we hold on to him for nothing.

You’re severely overrating the package. Regardless of what Brassard does here. The trade is judged on the trade not the performance. If you judge a trade on performance 95% of trades are “lost”.

 

[Ryder71]

It was the 22nd overall pick. That is basically a Hail Mary. Highly doubt it would impact anything moving forward unless we got really lucky.

Goalie prospects have no value.

If we didn’t move Cole for a player, we hold on to him for nothing.

You’re severely overrating the package. Regardless of what Brassard does here. The trade is judged on the trade not the performance. If you judge a trade on performance 95% of trades are “lost”.

We can agree to disagree, again you can't just continually jettison young players/picks and assets like that unless it really moves you forward in the near term. Thus far it hasn't. We gave up five pieces for one. I thought it was a bit much to part with, but hopefully Brassard plays better and produces more. Otherwise that was an unfortunate deal for us.

 

[The Old Master]

If you judge a trade on performance 95% of trades are “lost”.

that means somebody is winning 95% of their trades...…….we need to get that guy!

 

[Gurglesons]

We can agree to disagree, again you can't just continually jettison young players/picks and assets like that unless it really moves you forward in the near term. Thus far it hasn't. We gave up five pieces for one. I thought it was a bit much to part with, but hopefully Brassard plays better and produces more. Otherwise that was an unfortunate deal for us.

In RS games Brassard has 9 points in 19 games since becoming a Penguin. Seems solid enough for me.

What young players did we jettison? We traded Cole and a 4th. You’re also ignoring that we received a 3rd back.

We lost a frivolous goaltender, an older defenseman in Cole and turned a 4th into a 3rd.

The only real thing of value was the 22nd overall for two years of a legit center. With massive retention.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

It's absolutely no offense to anyone who is still for some reason a Nick Bonino fan at this late date but I myself will be waiting to see what Brassard looks like healthy over a decent sample size and with an entire roster that doesn't look like it's been gobbling up large quantities of horse tranquilizers before every game. Oh... and maybe in his correct position. That would be helpful, coach.

I'm not saying I'm super stoked about what Brassard has done here so far. Only that I get the context. And I would be LESS pleased to have paid Nick Bonino between 3-4M at term to look even worse. This team already has enough questionable contracts, IMO.

 

[dogthateats]

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Brassard has looked good when healthy.

That is the only way I can judge the trade, tbh.

I don’t fault Shero for his usage of Iginla.

I'm not blaming JR either...just saying that if Brass keeps getting used like he has, it won't have been worth it. For all Sully's strengths, his roster usage has been pretty dubious on a few fronts since last year. This is one of 'em.

 

[PensandCaps]

You're not wrong... just that it doesn't mean Kessel has to like it. And based on last season... he didn't. I mean he had HBK and they were super successful, and we won. No way is he going to complain about that. The following season we tried like hell for HBK to work and it didn't, so we abandoned it and he played with Malkin and we won.

Last season we struggled as a team, and Kessel specifically struggled. Maybe his thinking was that if he'd been with Malkin they could have scored a few more goals, and thus gone a little further... who knows. But I think we as fans forget how egotistical these players can be. These are very driven individuals who are among the best in the world at their profession... and they want like hell to win. Maybe Kessel was just venting because he was frustrated that for the first time in his Pens career, they lost? IDK. But it's pretty easy as a fan to look and understand why the org wants Kessel on L3, while also understanding why he'd rather be on L1/2.

Still think we can keep Kessel in the top six and still run a 3 line attack. That's why Brassard should be at 3C. He gives you a great 3rd line.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Come on, Kreider!