Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building Thread

[Gurglesons]

No it doesn't. Letang being here basically makes that comparison moot, because Carolina never had a Letang caliber defensemen over those years. Their #1 defenseman was Joni Pitkanen.

The contracts he has handed out to marginal # 5s like JJ and Oleksiak say otherwise.

But, what do I know.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The contracts he has handed out to marginal # 5s like JJ and Oleksiak say otherwise.

But, what do I know.

That doesn't refute my point. Comparing the Penguins current defense to the defense Carolina has just doesn't work solely because the Penguins have Letang. It's a bad comparison.

 

[Le Magnifique 66]

I don't get the Maatta rumor to the Habs, I just don't see what would be coming back the other way
I don't see why the Habs would move Danault right now
As for Benn, no thank you!!!

 

[cheesedanish87]

Which is why most of the blame for this team’s performance is on him. Our D looks like the Carolina special from 08-2012.

Overpaid mediocrity on every pairing outside of Dumo and Letang and even Dumo has been slightly frustrating this year.

Yep.

I just can't get over the JJ signing.

If they would of just went after De haan instead the def would be in so much better shape.

Dumo Letang
De haan Schultz
Maatta MP


That def right there would be good, the top 4 would be good with good puck movers, bottom pair of Maatta and MP would be a good bottom paring def.

Just making that one bad signing screwed up the entire def.

 

[Gurglesons]

That doesn't refute my point. Comparing the Penguins current defense to the defense Carolina has just doesn't work solely because the Penguins have Letang. It's a bad comparison.

You’re missing my point as you are seem to do.

 

[KIRK]

Can they actually get worse? That gap control is bruuuuutal.

Im actually a fan of Maatta but hes not giving us 4.1 worth. That's for damn sure.

I wonder if 1 hand would suffice to count the number of Penguins making more than a million per who are giving their money's worth.

 

[Gurglesons]

Yep.

I just can't get over the JJ signing.

If they would of just went after De haan instead the def would be in so much better shape.

Dumo Letang
De haan Schultz
Maatta MP


That def right there would be good, the top 4 would be good with good puck movers, bottom pair of Maatta and MP would be a good bottom paring def.

Just making that one bad signing screwed up the entire def.

It is easily moveable though down the line!

 

[Gurglesons]

I wonder if 1 hand would suffice to count the number of Penguins making more than a million per who are giving their money's worth.

Rust, Hornqvist, Letang, Crosby..?

 

[Empoleon8771]

You’re missing my point as you are seem to do.

No, your point is just a bad argument. This was Carolina's defense in 2008-2009, the year they made the ECF:

Pitkanen-Seidenberg
Gleason-Corvo
Wallin-Babchuk

This is way worse than anything the Penguins have had with a healthy Letang. You just have an axe to grind because you're a Shero apologist and take every opportunity you can to jump at JR. To compare the Penguins current defense to Carolina's defense in that timeframe is a bad comparison. It's just not a good comparison.

 

[KIRK]

That doesn't refute my point. Comparing the Penguins current defense to the defense Carolina has just doesn't work solely because the Penguins have Letang. It's a bad comparison.

Unless Letang can play 40 minutes a night, it's a good comparison.

The Penguins team offensive play is predicated on having multiple defensemen who can make smart, quick, accurate decisions with the puck CONSISTENTLY, not on just having one great one playing mostly behind Sid and a bunch of crap for everyone else.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Unless Letang can play 40 minutes a night, it's a good comparison.

The Penguins team offensive play is predicated on having multiple defensemen who can make smart, quick, accurate decisions with the puck CONSISTENTLY, not on just having one great one playing mostly behind Sid and a bunch of crap for everyone else.

And they'll have that as soon as Schultz is healthy. The comparison for the Penguins defense to a past team should be comparing them to the Hawks in 2015, who had Keith, Seabrook, Hjalmarsson and a bunch of crap.

 

[KIRK]

Rust, Hornqvist, Letang, Crosby..?

Rust only if the season started in December.

Guys like Jake and Pets (who I know you didn't mention because you, unlike some others, can read) make under a million.

Dumo has a decent case. Not great, but he's probably giving you 4M per worth in terms of his play.

 

[KIRK]

And they'll have that as soon as Schultz is healthy. The comparison for the Penguins defense to a past team should be comparing them to the Hawks in 2015, who had Keith, Seabrook, Hjalmarsson and a bunch of crap.

I'm not sure that Maatta won't neuter Schultz's offensive impact. It's why I've been keen to add an upgrade to Maatta, so we could ride the crap out of our top 4.

And, Pets-JMFJ is a black hole offensively, as in they make me long for the days of Dumo-Hainsey.

 

[Gurglesons]

No, your point is just a bad argument. This was Carolina's defense in 2008-2009, the year they made the ECF:

Pitkanen-Seidenberg
Gleason-Corvo
Wallin-Babchuk

This is way worse than anything the Penguins have had with a healthy Letang. You just have an axe to grind because you're a Shero apologist and take every opportunity you can to jump at JR. To compare the Penguins current defense to Carolina's defense in that timeframe is a bad comparison. It's just not a good comparison.

I was talking about the bottom two pairings which basically are Maatta - Riikola and Pettersson - Johnson.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I'm not sure that Maatta won't neuter Schultz's offensive impact. It's why I've been keen to add an upgrade to Maatta, so we could ride the crap out of our top 4.

And, Pets-JMFJ is a black hole offensively, as in they make me long for the days of Dumo-Hainsey.

I mean, neither of these are things I agree with, so I'm not sure the point of having the debate. Maatta-Schultz has had success in the past, and I'm confident Maatta will get back to his form from last year when not paired with a bad partner. Pettersson-Johnson has been an effective pair both offensively and defensively, it's nowhere even close to Dumoulin-Hainsey statistically.

It's going to be hard to find any middle ground on a discussion when the start is so polar opposite, so I'm not sure if there's a point in debating it.

I was talking about the bottom two pairings which basically are Maatta - Riikola and Pettersson - Johnson.

Are you looking at the pairs without Schultz, then? I was looking at this team fully healthy. Of course if you take away the team's #3 defenseman and 2nd best puck mover, it's going to look way worse.

To me, the defense on this team reminds me of the 2015 Hawks. If you can ride Schultz, Dumoulin and Letang like the Hawks rode Seabrook, Hjalmarsson and Keith, I think you're completely fine. I don't see any reason to think the Penguins can't do that, hence why I don't like the original comparison.

 

[Riptide]

@Empoleon8771

Speaking of that, I don't know why Sullivan was so trigger happy to play Guentzel with Sheahan last year, but he has refused to play Guentzel with Brassard this year. Guentzel-Brassard-Hornqvist looked legitimately great this year and it's definitely a combination you think would work with Brassard, but we only saw it when Crosby was out.

I think it's because Guentzel had his own struggles last year and thus hadn't earned the right to get stapled to Crosby's hip. However this year he's been really really good and there really hasn't been much of a reason to move him around.

Edit. I see @Tom Hanks and @Peat beat me to it.

 

[KIRK]

I mean, neither of these are things I agree with, so I'm not sure the point of having the debate. Maatta-Schultz has had success in the past, and I'm confident Maatta will get back to his form from last year when not paired with a bad partner. Pettersson-Johnson has been an effective pair both offensively and defensively, it's nowhere even close to Dumoulin-Hainsey statistically.

It's going to be hard to find any middle ground on a discussion when the start is so polar opposite, so I'm not sure if there's a point in debating it.



Are you looking at the pairs without Schultz, then? I was looking at this team fully healthy. Of course if you take away the team's #3 defenseman and 2nd best puck mover, it's going to look way worse.

To me, the defense on this team reminds me of the 2015 Hawks. If you can ride Schultz, Dumoulin and Letang like the Hawks rode Seabrook, Hjalmarsson and Keith, I think you're completely fine. I don't see any reason to think the Penguins can't do that, hence why I don't like the original comparison.

If it makes you feel better, I actually hope you're right, because that's the defense we're going to get.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Just throwing the numbers out there:

Pettersson-Johnson this year
Maatta-Schultz historically

Statistically, I feel like both of these pairs have been mediocre to fine both offensively and overall. I think you ideally have better than these 2 pairs for your bottom-4, but I also don't think they're so bad that you're crippled with how the team is currently structured. They're perfectly alright, I think you could find just as many teams with worse bottom-4 groups as you could find teams with better bottom-4 groups. Now, if you get Maatta and Schultz playing to their capabilities, that changes things a lot.

 

[Peat]

The only criticism that I think is fair to level at Rutherford regarding the blue line is that his decision to put a lot of faith in Maatta/johnson as load carrying 4/5s has not paid out at all in the hour of need. Everything else looks solid and getting Petterson and Riikola have been great things.

Unfortunately that one failing could wreck a lot of things.

 

[Riptide]

Petry is better than Muzzin.

Disagree. I think the puck moving aspects are pretty similar (although tilted slightly in Petry's favor) and that Muzzin is significantly better defensively.

 

[mpp9]

Having to rely on Schultz as a #3 after a long layoff and never really being an impact player here isn't a wise decision for a contending team.

The issues remain the same for this team. They got away with having a mediocre defense in the past because of our speed advantage. That advantage is gone as can be be plainly seen against a vastly less talented Devils team giving us issues with their speed. As well as Sid's line with Letang being the only consistent driving force of this team all season.

Maybe they overachieve again like 17. But it ain't a formula for success when you factor in Washington likely beats us if we play that series out again with how tilted things were in their favor. And how much better the competition has become. Tampa adding more depth and McDonagh. Toronto adding Muzzin now.

I don't think our team is underachieving as much as the league has gotten better.

 

[mpp9]

Disagree. I think the puck moving aspects are pretty similar (although tilted slightly in Petry's favor) and that Muzzin is significantly better defensively.

Muzzin had Doughty. Petry had to carry a defense for a year without their #1D and did so admirably.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Maybe they overachieve again like 17. But it ain't a formula for success when you factor in Washington likely beats us if we play that series out again with how tilted things were in their favor. And how much better the competition has become. Tampa adding more depth and McDonagh. Toronto adding Muzzin now.

I mean, they nearly beat the Capitals last year with Murray struggling and the entire bottom-9 sucking

I feel like some people greatly exaggerate how bad of a spot the Penguins are in. They're a hot streak by Murray from being basically guaranteed to at least make the ECF. I don't think there is anyone in the East that is clearly better than them outside of Tampa Bay, and this is the only year Tampa is going to be this good. I've also said in the past that I don't really care about how they do in the regular season, so maybe that's a factor here. But I don't really care how they look in the regular season as long as they make the playoffs, because I know this team is full of players who are better in the playoffs than in the regular season.

 

[mpp9]

I mean, they nearly beat the Capitals last year with Murray struggling and the entire bottom-9 sucking

I feel like some people greatly exaggerate how bad of a spot the Penguins are in. They're a hot streak by Murray from being basically guaranteed to at least make the ECF.

I think they're a second tier team until they fix their transition game. It's a chore to break the puck out for us while way too often we can't even establish a cycle on the opposition.

I don't see Schultz fixing that to the extent needed to win 4 rounds against the best.

 

[PensandCaps]

Just avoid Tampa in round 1.

Pens can beat Washington
Pens can beat Toronto
Pens cam beat Boston
Pens can beat Columbus

Get Tampa in the ECF, maybe a few pucks boucw weird and you go to the cup.

Every team is pretty even outside Tampa. The Penguins are fine, I bet even Tampa Does not want to see us in round 1, I guarantee that.