Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building Thread: Your proposal is bad and you should feel bad

[TimmyD]

If you say so. He was starting to look pretty good there last year before we got Brassard.

With Jake and Phil as his wingers and carrying the line yes. That stretch in which the line looked good and clicked had way more to do with Jake and Phil then anything Sheahan did

 

[Peat]

After looking awful earlier in the season. He has been far too inconsistent in his career. Some fan made a parody twitter handle and website that tracked how long he went without scoring a goal (will sheahan score). He's had a career resurrection here, but has been too inconsistent for me to trust he can be the 3C on a cup contender.

Tbf, he's had a rather inconsistent time in terms of whether he's on a quality team with quality, or not. He's delivered pretty much every time that he's been in the former situation.

Not that I'm particularly disagreeing about not really trusting him as a 3C here at this point and moment mind. But its very easy to track the whys of Sheahan's fluctuating form and he's a long way from being the only player out there that lives and dies by usage.

We can argue back and forth until we're blue in the face whether or not we think Sheahan would be ok at 3C.

It doesn't matter because the team clearly doesn't believe that he is. That's why they went and got Brassard last year.

And year of watching Brassard fail in that position hasn't changed their minds about Sheahan in that spot or he'd be there right now and they'd be using Brassard on wing where he has been marginally more effective.

Its not at all clear that Brassard's acquisition was a matter of them not believing in him as a 3C. They pumped his tires a lot in the press around the time and more critically, they kept his ice time high and didn't hesitate to give him good assignments.

Also, Rutherford has made a lot of moves that involve bringing in someone to play ahead of a guy he likes because he likes overkill. Rutherford believing in Sheahan as a 3C but bringing in a different player would be completely consistent with how he operates.

With Jake and Phil as his wingers and carrying the line yes. That stretch in which the line looked good and clicked had way more to do with Jake and Phil then anything Sheahan did

That was the peak of the Sheahan third line, but the third line did well without Jake and Phil.

 

[ChaosAgent]

After looking awful earlier in the season. He has been far too inconsistent in his career. Some fan made a parody twitter handle and website that tracked how long he went without scoring a goal (will sheahan score). He's had a career resurrection here, but has been too inconsistent for me to trust he can be the 3C on a cup contender.

• Fair, but our team needs defensive upgrades more than it needs some dynamite 3C. We're counting on a rehabbing Schultz and Maatta to be our 2nd pairing.
• By the way, there's also still Blueger. Yes he's unproven, but in a cap world not everyone can have pedigree. In 2016-2017, we trusted Sheary, Rust and Jake....even Scott Wilson to play big minutes as unproven forwards.

 

[ChaosAgent]

With Jake and Phil as his wingers and carrying the line yes. That stretch in which the line looked good and clicked had way more to do with Jake and Phil then anything Sheahan did

He would have Kessel again, at least. If the team still trusts Kessel-Malkin as a playoff line at this point, we're really in trouble. That leaves Kessel no one to play with except Sheahan.

 

[Peat]

• Fair, but our team needs defensive upgrades more than it needs some dynamite 3C. We're counting on a rehabbing Schultz and Maatta to be our 2nd pairing.
• By the way, there's also still Blueger. Yes he's unproven, but in a cap world not everyone can have pedigree. In 2016-2017, we trusted Sheary, Rust and Jake....even Scott Wilson to play big minutes as unproven forwards.

The guys you listed had 20-30 games to make their case. Blueger doesn't have that time before the deadline.

I don't think we need a dynamite 3C, but someone more proven and consistent than Sheahan or Blueger would be hugely preferable.

 

[ChaosAgent]

The guys you listed had 20-30 games to make their case. Blueger doesn't have that time before the deadline.

I don't think we need a dynamite 3C, but someone more proven and consistent than Sheahan or Blueger would be hugely preferable.

It would, but so would an upgrade on defense. Maybe JR can pull off both with our 1st, Jarry and whatever we get for Brassard. But it won't be easy.

 

[Peat]

It would, but so would an upgrade on defense. Maybe JR can pull off both with our 1st, Jarry and whatever we get for Brassard. But it won't be easy.

The assets are there to upgrade both - and wing - if Rutherford's willing to use them. I don't buy any need to skimp on this or that based solely on multiple needs - and if there is a need, then the priority in which problem to address will probably be decided by what's actually out there to buy at a good price. I doubt we'll be able to get everything we want to the standard we want.

 

[Ryder71]

Pull the trigger now and get what you can. See what you have in Sheahan/Blueger. Give yourself a month to reassess if "the perfect fit" at 3C is more important than upgrading on the D or adding a defense-first top-9 winger.

I agree about pulling the trigger sooner than later. However the return is an important dynamic. I'm not gonna just give him away or take a bad offer. If teams don't wish to give us good value I'm not trading him. We know he has the ability to be a difference maker. Unfortunately in his tenure here we haven't seen that. And IDEALLY I would like to trade him for a better fit, no question. But I don't want us to get victimized in the process.

 

[madinsomniac]

If they move Brass then target a 3c id like them to grab Bjugstad.... I wanted him over sheahan and he was supposedly on the short list.... even at 26 he still has upside in case of a top 2 C injury and is perfect for the 3c role... his value is down due to some unfortunate injuries the past few years... im fine with just bringing TB up too... but if they are going to look for a vet, he is right for the role

 

[Riptide]

With Jake and Phil as his wingers and carrying the line yes. That stretch in which the line looked good and clicked had way more to do with Jake and Phil then anything Sheahan did

Potentially. I mean he's still doing something that Brassard hasn't done/couldn't do. That said, I was surprised at how much Guentzel played with them. Basically half of Sheahan's TOI was with Guentzel.

From Dec 1st to Feb 27th here's the breakdown:

Guentzel - Sheahan - Kessel: 129 minutes
Guentzel - Sheahan: 44 minutes
Guentzel - Kessel: 115 minutes
Sheahan - Kessel: 37 minutes
Guentzel: 226 minutes
Sheahan: 261 minutes
Kessel: 281 minutes

Production wise over those 38 games, Kessel had 21 ES points, Sheahan had 17 and Guentzel 16.

Going forward, I don't care who the center is - I don't want both of Guentzel and Kessel on the same line. I don't think we can afford to give L3 that type of support due to a lack of skilled wings and for similar reasons I don't want to put both with Crosby. If we want to keep a strong top 6, I'd seriously consider trying Guentzel with Malkin and Kessel with Crosby.

Pearson - Crosby - Kessel
Guentzel - Malkin - Rust/Hornqvist
Simon - XXXXX - Rust/Hornqvist

 

[Ryder71]

Yeah that was Geno's most dominant regular season, but nothing tops those playoff runs from Geno. He was so damn good. More than good, he was just so entertaining to watch. Sid is the greatest player of this generation, but Geno was the most enjoyable player to watch IMO.

Geno had 36 points which even by the numbers doesn't do him justice with just how dominant of a player he was. That total (if I'm correct) is the most in a playoff run since Gretzky in '93. That really helps put that playoff run of his into perspective. Geno was a machine. I believe he scored at least eight points each series as well. Ultra consistent.

 

[Riptide]

• Fair, but our team needs defensive upgrades more than it needs some dynamite 3C. We're counting on a rehabbing Schultz and Maatta to be our 2nd pairing.
• By the way, there's also still Blueger. Yes he's unproven, but in a cap world not everyone can have pedigree. In 2016-2017, we trusted Sheary, Rust and Jake....even Scott Wilson to play big minutes as unproven forwards.

Yes, but we gave those kids games on L4 in Nov/Dec/Jan/Feb long before we put them into positions of any importance. Blueger hasn't played an NHL game yet, and while we can bitch about that all we want, there's not a chance in hell that Rutherford will plan a healthy roster that has him at 3c. 4c I could see - kinda. But not 3c. Worse case scenario he's on the team next season due to waivers forcing the issue, but I still think it will be as a L4 W/C where he's fighting one other player for minutes in the middle - kind of like Sheahan and Cullen this season.

 

[Coach Travis]

I will tell you right now that Sheahan at 3C will be a disaster.

I'm not excited about the prospect but Jesse Marshall has a good article on The Athletic about how, really, in order for us to have a really good 3rd line all we need is "replacement level" production from our 3C. Brassard has been on the bottom 10 in the league and has been a drain on every player he's played with while Sheahan, when you take into account his assignments and line mates, has been pretty much at exactly replacement level.

He also surmises that having a more defensively minded Centre might be a boon to Kessel & Pearson who seemed to have immediately gained some chemistry.

 

[ColePens]

It amazes me for how different the players are, how weirdly similar Sheahan/Brassard's production is. I've never seen more vanilla players who look like they can't shoot, pass, score, defend, or anything. At least Sheahan is safer but man it's astonishing how both guys look like they are not even remotely engaged in playing hockey.

Sheahan was a 3rd wheel on a 4th line to a 42 year old and ZAR. Goodness gracious that is bad. I don't even believe he's an everyday NHLer. But Brassard has at least proven that everywhere else except Pittsburgh.

 

[Pens x]

I really thought we got over Sheahan playing on the third line. You all finally saw the light earlier this season that he’s a pretty crappy player. Now he’s fine to play with Kessel? Are you kidding me???

 

[Shady Machine]

Tbf, he's had a rather inconsistent time in terms of whether he's on a quality team with quality, or not. He's delivered pretty much every time that he's been in the former situation.

Not that I'm particularly disagreeing about not really trusting him as a 3C here at this point and moment mind. But its very easy to track the whys of Sheahan's fluctuating form and he's a long way from being the only player out there that lives and dies by usage.

So it wasn't his fault he got demoted and scored 2 goals in 80 games? It's not like a player that was once relatively productive gets banished for the hell of it.

Anyway, I don't want to go in a rabbit hole here. I don't want him as this team's 3C. Never have, never will. I'm sure that makes me a tad biased, but that's fine with me.

 

[MartinS82]

Yes, but we gave those kids games on L4 in Nov/Dec/Jan/Feb long before we put them into positions of any importance. Blueger hasn't played an NHL game yet, and while we can ***** about that all we want, there's not a chance in hell that Rutherford will plan a healthy roster that has him at 3c. 4c I could see - kinda. But not 3c. Worse case scenario he's on the team next season due to waivers forcing the issue, but I still think it will be as a L4 W/C where he's fighting one other player for minutes in the middle - kind of like Sheahan and Cullen this season.

I know nothing of Blueger except for reading boxscores and what I hear on HF Pens. How would he do as a 3c longterm, would he still excel if given more of a defensively responsible role? Also, it always seems like one of the requirements for a Pens 3c is to be able to play 1c or 2c for extended amounts of time, until the last few years, it seemed like they would always be used in that type of role.

 

[billybudd]

It amazes me for how different the players are, how weirdly similar Sheahan/Brassard's production is. I've never seen more vanilla players who look like they can't shoot, pass, score, defend, or anything. At least Sheahan is safer but man it's astonishing how both guys look like they are not even remotely engaged in playing hockey.

Sheahan was a 3rd wheel on a 4th line to a 42 year old and ZAR. Goodness gracious that is bad. I don't even believe he's an everyday NHLer. But Brassard has at least proven that everywhere else except Pittsburgh.

Sheahan at least has his stick in the right lane, usually. Brassard, though...I'm floored that this guy was ever knocking on the door to being a star. You'd never know it to watch his play. And it's not even like he's that old.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

It amazes me for how different the players are, how weirdly similar Sheahan/Brassard's production is. I've never seen more vanilla players who look like they can't shoot, pass, score, defend, or anything. At least Sheahan is safer but man it's astonishing how both guys look like they are not even remotely engaged in playing hockey.

Sheahan was a 3rd wheel on a 4th line to a 42 year old and ZAR. Goodness gracious that is bad. I don't even believe he's an everyday NHLer. But Brassard has at least proven that everywhere else except Pittsburgh.

Well, Sheahan has had some of the hardest assignments of any forward we have consistently over his time here. And even so, he's still produced the same or better than Brass.

I'm not a huge Sheahan supporter or saying we should sign him to some big deal, but from his statistical production, he's a reasonable 3C here considering the job description.

 

[Coach Travis]

It amazes me for how different the players are, how weirdly similar Sheahan/Brassard's production is. I've never seen more vanilla players who look like they can't shoot, pass, score, defend, or anything. At least Sheahan is safer but man it's astonishing how both guys look like they are not even remotely engaged in playing hockey.

Sheahan was a 3rd wheel on a 4th line to a 42 year old and ZAR. Goodness gracious that is bad. I don't even believe he's an everyday NHLer. But Brassard has at least proven that everywhere else except Pittsburgh.

I'd love to see us just try a few players at 3C. I'm trying to think when the last time was that we drafted and developed a 3C. Jordan Staal? When you've got Pearson & Kessel on your 3rd line, your 3C doesn't *have* to be the proverbial "he's a bonafide 2C on any other team!", Nick Bonino certainly wasn't. Dominik Simon is a natural Center and a cerebral, versatile player a lot like Bonino. Teddy Blueger would inject some energy and is tearing it up in WBS. As crazy as it sounds, we should've kept Derek Grant and tried him at 3C.

Would Simon, Blueger or Grant be good 3C's? We just don't know.

In 2016, the Penguins got meaningful contributions in the playoffs from a slew of young, unproven players (Sheary, Rust, Dumoulin, Kuhnhackl, Murray... I guess Justin Schultz could be included in that) and then in 2017, Guentzel, Rowney, Wilson, and to a limited extent, Archibald and Ruhwedel, were brought in.

Are there more of these guys in WBS, just waiting to be brought up or young guys who could be trusted with bigger roles? We just don't know.

I don't get why we're suddenly so shy with our call-ups. It's like Mike Sullivan knew his guys from WBS inside and out and knew they were NHLers but now that he's been with the Pens for a few years, he doesn't feel comfortable enough with guys he didn't already coach.

As for Derick Brassard... Man... This has to be the most head-scratching disappointment I've maybe ever seen in hockey. "Big Game Brass", only 30 (when we acquired him) playing in maybe the sweetest of sweet lineup spots being given top 6 linemates while taking on bottom 6 opposition... Just mind boggling.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

It amazes me for how different the players are, how weirdly similar Sheahan/Brassard's production is. I've never seen more vanilla players who look like they can't shoot, pass, score, defend, or anything. At least Sheahan is safer but man it's astonishing how both guys look like they are not even remotely engaged in playing hockey.

Sheahan was a 3rd wheel on a 4th line to a 42 year old and ZAR. Goodness gracious that is bad. I don't even believe he's an everyday NHLer. But Brassard has at least proven that everywhere else except Pittsburgh.

Well to be fair Sheahan is woefully miscast as a wing. Not saying he's a great player but by putting him at wing you won't get the best from him.

I still say: you fix these defensemen and you fix the problems

Send out Brass (and other pieces) for a legit top 4 guy and the high danger chances are gonna deplete dramatically

 

[Shady Machine]

Well, Sheahan has had some of the hardest assignments of any forward we have consistently over his time here. And even so, he's still produced the same or better than Brass.

I'm not a huge Sheahan supporter or saying we should sign him to some big deal, but from his statistical production, he's a reasonable 3C here considering the job description.

I know but I just can't stand watching him play. He's sooo meh. If he ends up 3C I will cheer him on and hope like hell he does enough to allow his wingers to flourish.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I'd love to see us just try a few players at 3C. I'm trying to think when the last time was that we drafted and developed a 3C. Jordan Staal? When you've got Pearson & Kessel on your 3rd line, your 3C doesn't *have* to be the proverbial "he's a bonafide 2C on any other team!", Nick Bonino certainly wasn't. Dominik Simon is a natural Center and a cerebral, versatile player a lot like Bonino. Teddy Blueger would inject some energy and is tearing it up in WBS. As crazy as it sounds, we should've kept Derek Grant and tried him at 3C.

Would Simon, Blueger or Grant be good 3C's? We just don't know.

In 2016, the Penguins got meaningful contributions in the playoffs from a slew of young, unproven players (Sheary, Rust, Dumoulin, Kuhnhackl, Murray... I guess Justin Schultz could be included in that) and then in 2017, Guentzel, Rowney, Wilson, and to a limited extent, Archibald and Ruhwedel, were brought in.

Are there more of these guys in WBS, just waiting to be brought up or young guys who could be trusted with bigger roles? We just don't know.

I don't get why we're suddenly so shy with our call-ups. It's like Mike Sullivan knew his guys from WBS inside and out and knew they were NHLers but now that he's been with the Pens for a few years, he doesn't feel comfortable enough with guys he didn't already coach.

As for Derick Brassard... Man... This has to be the most head-scratching disappointment I've maybe ever seen in hockey. "Big Game Brass", only 30 (when we acquired him) playing in maybe the sweetest of sweet lineup spots being given top 6 linemates while taking on bottom 6 opposition... Just mind boggling.

Exactly this. We've gotten shy about callups and the fans have become very entrenched in thinking that 3C is just way too important of a position to leave to any sort of chance. You'd think we ought to move Crosby to 3C given how elevated the position has become in our eyes.

If we trade Brassard now, we have a chance to see what we have in Sheahan, Blueger or even Simon. Besides, if we insist on getting a 3C back in the exact same transaction that we move Brassard in - as a lot of this board seems to want - we are going to lose this deal.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Sheahan at least has his stick in the right lane, usually. Brassard, though...I'm floored that this guy was ever knocking on the door to being a star. You'd never know it to watch his play. And it's not even like he's that old.

I'll be surprised if he goes somewhere and doesn't at least return to the form he had in Ottawa if he's used in a 2C role.

Some centers just aren't cut out for 3rd line duty. Eric Staal was virtually written off a few years ago after his disastrous Rangers stint.

 

[Riptide]

Exactly this. We've gotten shy about callups and the fans have become very entrenched in thinking that 3C is just way too important of a position to leave to any sort of chance. You'd think we ought to move Crosby to 3C given how elevated the position has become in our eyes.

If we trade Brassard now, we have a chance to see what we have in Sheahan, Blueger or even Simon. Besides, if we insist on getting a 3C back in the exact same transaction that we move Brassard in - as a lot of this board seems to want - we are going to lose this deal.

We won't see either of those guys as our 3c if healthy. Internally, for better or worse the only option we have is Sheahan. Blueger might be able to do the job, but there's not enough time to find out. And I don't think Simon has ever played center in North America. The kid is smart enough that he might be able to do it, but if that was the plan, they would have had to start him there in the AHL - at this point he's a winger.

Which is why I question why Grant was moved. At least sort out the 3c spot first before moving him. I mean no he's probably not the answer... but I'd rather have 2 non answers then 1.

It is. You can't leave that position to chance if you want to truly contend for a cup. Edmonton or Arizona can leave it to chance. But the top teams (of which we still are one) can't. You don't need someone who can step into a 1/2c role for the spot (although someone that skilled is usually preferred), but you do need someone who can contribute, play meaningful minutes and whom you do not have to shelter in any way. That would automatically rule out Blueger this season and Simon (not that I think we'd ever see him get that chance).