Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building - Locked in until July

[JimmyTwoTimes]

But he had good "fancy stats" and helped get Sid started.

Do you get a text alert every time Sprong is mentioned on here?

 

[RizzleMcRib]

Do you get a text alert every time Sprong is mentioned on here?

No. Do you know how I can set that up though?
Thanks for any help you can provide.

I thought you said something about being done with this conversation. Do you have that big of a crush on me that you can't keep me off your mind? Awe.

 

[AverageJoeFan]

Do you get a text alert every time Sprong is mentioned on here?

An angel get's their wing each time the name Sprong is spoken..

 

[Gurglesons]

It happens... you can rush a player and ruin him... you can let a guy who is physically and mentally ready acclimate at too low a level and they never develop other skills and moves to offset their advantages against lesser competition....


For the record... the Pens are horrible at developing guys...

It doesn’t happen.

They just weren’t ever as good as you thought they were.

I’ll admit Pouliot is one player you could argue, but he’s proven in Vancouver he is just a mess.

 

[Gurglesons]

If you look st our roster, the homegrown guys who weren't either out of the box ready for the NHL like Sid Geno and Maatta and who weren't developed primarily through a college program the Pens had little control over are who? Letang, Simon, and Kuhnhackl???

How many 18 to 20 year olds have we really brought in from jrs to wilkes barre and developed into nhl players

I don’t really understand this argument. We’ve brought in Guentzel, Sheary, Rust, Kuhnhackl, Murray, Jarry, Desmith, Dumoulin, Simon, ZAR, and Rowney all up through the WBS system the past three years.

I don’t see what being 18 or 22 has to do with it.

 

[Tom Hanks]

I don’t really understand this argument. We’ve brought in Guentzel, Sheary, Rust, Kuhnhackl, Murray, Jarry, Desmith, Dumoulin, Simon, ZAR, and Rowney all up through the WBS system the past three years.

I don’t see what being 18 or 22 has to do with it.

Although it’s a little different we pretty much developed Schultz as well.

 

[Riptide]

Well if you expected 70-80 points yeah you expected too much. He’s still on pace to get 23 goals, 24 assists.

There are a lot of factors that didn’t help like first full season, other teams knowing who he is, being on a bad team for half a season, etc.

He’s also been developing his game a bit more. He’s better at forechecking and hitting now. A bit more solid in his own end and has had stints at centre and on the PK.

He's on pace for 47pts, with 35 of those at ES. That's not bad... but I was expecting something more in the 55/60pt range. Potentially higher, but I didn't think that 55 at the low end was all that unrealistic given the role he has here and the chances he gets.

 

[Riptide]

Its really hard to decide on that at this moment... there are benefits to him staying down, there are benefits to him staying up... he was playing extremely well for what is basically a rookie season. He absolutely is a NHL talent... if the Pens mangle his development and dont win a cup, then it will likely have been a mistake not letting him play things out more before banishing him to the AHL.

if they win the cup, it probably doesnt matter

If they win it and he becomes a productive player for them its a win all the way around...

its just with they way they bungled his first year, it becomes extremely important to make a judgement call on him ASAP

In what time frame? Because Sprong almost certainly wasn't going to be the difference between us winning or not winning a cup this year. And if we're being realistic... that applies to next season as well - although that's a bigger question mark.

 

[Riptide]

Again, this isnt something you or anyone can win as an arguement right now... it will take years to find out. there are lots of ways to stunt a guys development... one is backlogging him in the AHL if he is ready to play at a higher level, because in some cases lazy tendencies develop from playing lesser skilled guys.... The pens have a poor historical record with prospects, despite their current crop. NHL teams are often loathe to play guys without experiance for playoff runs... opting for some scrub vet instead.... but if we didnt let Jake play into a key role last year, or Sheary and Rust the year before, or had traded for a vet backup rather than utilizing Murray... then we probably arent back to back cup champions...

Its possible demoting sprong was the right move, its equally possible he should have been utilized earlier in the season to find out what he had. Its also completely possible injuries lead us to needing a goalscorer at some point... and it may be nice to definatively know what we have in him...

Its not worth debating until more facts are known

BULLSHIT. That might be the case if he was actually dominating the league he was playing in... but 2g in his last 17 games shows that this clearly isn't the case. He isn't even a PPG player in the AHL. There's absolutely zero basis to even start down the path that a rookie in his first pro season is "too good" for the AHL. None.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

So saying a garbage stat is garbage is having blinders on now? Good to know.

+/- shows absolutely nothing but goal differential, it's a garbage individual stat because it's almost solely team based. People who seriously use it in an argument are absolutely clueless. Sprong's +/- isn't even remotely bad enough where someone can legitimately point to it as concerning. Oh no, he's a -7 where the next worst guy is a -4 (-2 if you want to look at players who have played in a lot of games). Oh no!!!!!!

There are plenty of discussion points to bring up with Sprong, don't litter actual discussions with +/- nonsense.

Again your missing the point by a country mile.

Almost every player on WBSs active is a plus player. A lot of those players are double digit pluses. Sprong is the worst player in plus minus with a -7. Christian Thomas is the only other regular thats a minus (-2).

If that doesn't beg the question... Why are the WBS Penguins so much worse in even strength goal differential when Sprong is on the ice compared to everyone else?

Thats all anyone is asking. because when Sprong isnt out there they do great, when he is they are -7. It could be something, it could be randomness. But you cant find out the answer without asking why.

 

[Gurglesons]

BULL****. That might be the case if he was actually dominating the league he was playing in... but 2g in his last 17 games shows that this clearly isn't the case. He isn't even a PPG player in the AHL. There's absolutely zero basis to even start down the path that a rookie in his first pro season is "too good" for the AHL. None.

Except we saw that one time him score a goal or shoot the puck or something.

 

[Riptide]

It happens... you can rush a player and ruin him... you can let a guy who is physically and mentally ready acclimate at too low a level and they never develop other skills and moves to offset their advantages against lesser competition....

BULLSHIT. What's much much more likely is that those players were flawed in one way or another (skating, effort, or what have you) that hindered them even more then them not getting promoted when fans thought they should. But please... provide some examples of players who were too good for the AHL who were "ruined" by being kept there. This should be fascinating.

For the record... the Pens are horrible at developing guys...

Rust, Sheary, Dumoulin, Ruhwedel, Simon, Guentzel, Murray, Jarry, DeSmith, Maatta... I'm not going to say we're great at it... but we seem to be doing okay in this dept.

 

[MtlPenFan]

The Pens are horrible at developing guys?

They have two Stanley Cups, back to back, because of their development and trust of young players.

Why are some people determined to make me hate this place?

 

[MtlPenFan]

BULL****. What's much much more likely is that those players were flawed in one way or another (skating, effort, or what have you) that hindered them even more then them not getting promoted when fans thought they should. But please... provide some examples of players who were too good for the AHL who were "ruined" by being kept there. This should be fascinating.



Rust, Sheary, Dumoulin, Ruhwedel, Simon, Guentzel, Murray, Jarry, DeSmith, Maatta... I'm not going to say we're great at it... but we seem to be doing okay in this dept.

Especially when you consider where the Pens have drafted since '08, as well as the number of draft picks traded away trying to load up for the playoffs.

 

[Tom Hanks]

He's on pace for 47pts, with 35 of those at ES. That's not bad... but I was expecting something more in the 55/60pt range. Potentially higher, but I didn't think that 55 at the low end was all that unrealistic given the role he has here and the chances he gets.

Yeah that’s fair if the team had played better in 2017 he would have been in that range +

 

[Honour Over Glory]

The argument I'm making is that Sprong (or Simon) haven't been good enough to just waive one of their depth centers. There's just no need for it. If they want to call up Sprong and send down Simon whenever Simon is healthy (if they are allowed to do that), I don't really care because they wouldn't be getting rid of any of their depth options for the playoffs.


His biggest selling point is that he can play center on a team with very little depth beyond their top 4 centers. He and Jooris are the only ones you named with more than a handful of NHL games under their belt. ****, Sully barely trusted Dea enough to play him 5min a night in January let alone to lean on him to eat so many defensive zone starts in the playoffs.

But clearly this argument isn't going anywhere and it's moot since Rowney is hurt anyway. I just think it's a bad idea to throw away depth in general let alone for a prospect who may or may not be NHL ready. Clearly the Penguins don't think he's ready if they scratching him in the AHL, though. Obviously you don't agree.

That and he also trusted Rowney more than Blueger to give even Teddy B 1 freaking game.

It's sad that we have another coach that needs some "toys taken away" so he does his job better.

 

[Gurglesons]

Especially when you consider where the Pens have drafted since '08, as well as the number of draft picks traded away trying to load up for the playoffs.

It is funny how 95% of the league is jealous of how we develop and our roster and people on here act like we’ve been a ghost town.

While being a perennial cup contender aside from one year with four cup appearance in ten years with another ECF.

 

[Riptide]

While being a perennial cup contender aside from one year with four cup appearance in ten years with another ECF.

Yep. It's crazy when you think of it that way... 4 cup finals and 1 ECF... all in a span of 10 years.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I think the Pens organization does well at developing players. Where they fall short a bit is in actually drafting high-end guys. But they tend to make the most of the talent the guys they do draft have.

 

[MtlPenFan]

It is funny how 95% of the league is jealous of how we develop and our roster and people on here act like we’ve been a ghost town.

While being a perennial cup contender aside from one year with four cup appearance in ten years with another ECF.

The Pens do not win in 2016 without Sheary, Rust, Dumo and Murray.
The Pens do not win in 2017 without Sheary, Rust, Dumo, Murray AND Jake.

These guys weren't bit players and interchangeable parts where you can argue that player X in their position likely would have yielded the same results (like Kuhnakl with Cullen and Fehr)

Dumo is a legit 1st pairing d-man making 2nd/3rd pairing money and was out there defending the lead in the waning moments against the Sharks and Predators protecting leads. Rust makes EVERY line he's on better (save for Sid's) and scored clutch goals in series deciding games in the playoffs. Sheary, as erratic as he is, scored arguably the biggest goal of the Final when he put the Sharks down 0-2 with his OT snipe, all but ending that series.

Murray and Jake don't need me to defend their value to this team.

All if not most of those guys were on ELC's when the Pens won, an absolute must on a team paying a handful of players the bulk of the team's salary cap. The ride, the high we've been on the last two seasons are all thanks the the guys mentioned above, and the idea that the Pens do a poor job developing and trusting players is incredibly disingenuous.

 

[pistolpete11]

I think the Pens organization does well at developing players. Where they fall short a bit is in actually drafting high-end guys. But they tend to make the most of the talent the guys they do draft have.

Hard to get that high end talent when you are drafting so late in the first round every year if they even have a 1st round pick. Since they have become a perennial contender, they missed badly on their only high pick.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Hard to get that high end talent when you are drafting so late in the first round every year if they even have a 1st round pick. Since they have become a perennial contender, they missed badly on their only high pick.

True to extent. But other teams have landed elite talents in later rounds than the 1st. So it's not like the only round you can get an elite player is if you draft in the top 10 of the first round.

 

[Ogrezilla]

True to extent. But other teams have landed elite talents in later rounds than the 1st. So it's not like the only round you can get an elite player is if you draft in the top 10 of the first round.

Just real quick off the top of my head, we drafted Letang, Murray, and Guentzel all in the third round. I'm not sure who you're considering elite drafted late, but we do okay for ourselves with the picks we have.

 

[pistolpete11]

True to extent. But other teams have landed elite talents in later rounds than the 1st. So it's not like the only round you can get an elite player is if you draft in the top 10 of the first round.

True, but they also drafted Letang and Murray in the later rounds. I don't know if you'd put Guentzel or Maatta in the 'elite' category, but still above average players.

And from what I've heard, they've got this Sprong guy who's ready to rip up the NHL any day now

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I mean, we drafted Letang, Murray, and Guentzel all in the third round.

Is Guentzel really elite? I was hoping he'd take a big step this year after his amazing playoff run, but I'm hesitant to call a 45-point guy "elite". He looks more like a high end complimentary piece rather than an elite player this year.

Also, it's a little telling we've got to go back 13 years to find the last elite player the Pens drafted after the first round (other than a goalie, who all tend to be crapshoots when drafting), no?