Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building - Locked in until July

[Riptide]

Again, you bring up irrelevant facts. How high you pick is based on how you finish in the regular season (apart from the final 4 teams getting the bottom four slots). Chicago going out early has literally zero relevance to how high they pick.

Just to clarify - that changed with the new playoff format. I'm pretty sure that prior to that, your playoff success had an impact on your draft position. AKA you exit in the 1st round, you get ranked with the other 1st round exit's based on RS points. You're out in the 2nd round, you get ranked with those guys based on RS points... and so on and so forth.

So depending on how far you're going back, that statement isn't wrong.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Bergeron was a 3rd rounder. Kucherov was a 2nd rounder. Kuznetsov and Giroux were mid/late 1sts. Karlsson was a mid 1st. Yes, the best way to get elite talent is picking top 5. But many quality players get drafted a lot later then that.

yes. I just listed 3 of them that we drafted.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

We’ve drafted a top four defensemen, a top six winger, a top nine winger, and a # 1 goalie while winning two cups and going to an ECF in the last five years.

If you don’t understand the impact that going on essentially three potential cup runs and consistently being a contender has on draft picks, you’re not proving anything.

Your argument was Ottawa has better picks in later rounds.

Also his argument is we haven’t drafted well in the first round and OUR two last first round picks are Maatta and Kapanen.

Now I remember why I try to refrain from having any sort of discussion with you. You read into posts what you want, then argue as though that's what the argument is.

Your second quote is just a flat out lie that I've never even said in this discussion we're having.

I mentioned Ottawa simply as an example of a team that has drafted two high end players during that time frame. No comparison made to the Pens in ANY post (go ahead and quote where I literally said "Ottawa has better picks in later rounds"). They were mentioned as an example of a team with some high-end forwards taken later in the draft.

As far as the rest, like I said, it was a simple statement about the lack of high-end players the Pens have drafted. No comparison to other teams (until you asked me to list the high-end guys other teams picked during that same time frame), no commentary on who is "better" or "worse" at drafting. Just a simple one sentence statement about the Pens not drafting a lot of high-end players.

And now you're listing guys like Bryan Rust and Simon Despres as proof that that's incorrect.

So I think we're done here.

 

[AverageJoeFan]

Bad defense is bad

 

[Rakell67]

Bergeron was a 3rd rounder. Kucherov was a 2nd rounder. Kuznetsov and Giroux were mid/late 1sts. Karlsson was a mid 1st. Yes, the best way to get elite talent is picking top 5. But many quality players get drafted a lot later then that.

Flyers GM Bobby Clarke didn’t even want to draft Giroux. He wanted a D from New Jersey that NYR selected just before Philly’s pick (Sanguinetti). You could see Clarke was pissed when he made the selection. I think he even mispronounced Giroux’s name.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Just to clarify - that changed with the new playoff format. I'm pretty sure that prior to that, your playoff success had an impact on your draft position. AKA you exit in the 1st round, you get ranked with the other 1st round exit's based on RS points. You're out in the 2nd round, you get ranked with those guys based on RS points... and so on and so forth.

So depending on how far you're going back, that statement isn't wrong.

Chicago has drafted:
11th
28th
24th
18th
18th
30th
20th
54th
39th
29th

In the Kane/Toews era. I'm not sure how many of those were traded up/traded back, or their original. But I don't think any early exits have dramatically altered any of those picks, or made them anywhere close to high enough for it to be relevant enough because it suddenly put them in a spot to draft a can't miss player.

The only "high" pick they had was 11th overall, and that was the one they got immediately after the Kane/Toews rookie year (where they were still a relatively average team).

 

[madinsomniac]

I stand by my statement... the Pens are fine at acquiring talent, but hockey as a whole has been kind of behind other sports at developing talent.... i mean it hasn't even been a decade since they decided every nhl team should have its own ahl affiliatiate, but most still haven't figured out how to use it well... and I mean its also kind of an issue that nhl level coaches almost never use young guys unless they are forced to by their talent or bosses...

Im fine with the Pens using the NFL model of college development.. that is a tried and true pathway, but there are red flags here... and im not even talking about Sprong

 

[Empoleon8771]

Cap projections staying constant, I think a safe guess is $80 million ceiling for next year. The NHLPA probably won't use the entire escalator, but they won't not use any of it.

 

[Empoleon8771]

On the discussion from yesterday, the Penguins have been pretty good at drafting and developing since 2010. They've missed on a lot of 1st rounders (usually only yielding depth players), but their mid round picks have been very successful and they've done a really good job of developing players. They have also done extremely well with developing prospects that other teams drafted and young players who haven't hit their potential in the NHL. Who cares if they didn't get a Kucherov or a Point in the 5th round? Only a handful of teams are doing that.

From 2010-2017, the Penguins have drafted and churned out all of these guys into being NHLers to some capacity:

Bennett: 3rd liner that got derailed due to injuries
Rust: 2nd liner
Kuhnhackl: 4th liner
Agostino: fringe NHLer that puts up huge AHL numbers
Morrow: depth defenseman who's a regular on a bad team
Harrington: depth defenseman who's a regular on a bad team
Archibald: 4th liner
Wilson: 3rd liner on a bad team, 4th liner on a good team
Pouliot: 3rd pair defenseman
Maatta: fringe 1st/2nd pair defenseman
Sundqvist: 13th forward
Murray: great starting goalie
Jarry: looking like a starting goalie
Guentzel: top-6 forward
Kapanen: currently a bottom-6er with top-6 potential
Sprong: projects to be a top-6er really soon
Simon: probably a 3rd liner

You also have guys like ZAR and Sheary for undrafted guys becoming NHLers. I don't really get why anyone would complain about the Penguins drafting and developing. Sure, they're not getting guys like Kucherov, but they're getting NHLers with probably 50% of their picks. That's a great rate.

 

[Shaffer]

I’m down to a defensive shakeup. Maatta should 100% be available. We need a more complete #3D than Maatta. Scandella would be of interest, but Buffalo has no reason to trade him.

Who knows, Karlsson is available as well

 

[Empoleon8771]

I’m down to a defensive shakeup. Maatta should 100% be available. We need a more complete #3D than Maatta. Scandella would be of interest, but Buffalo has no reason to trade him.

Who knows, Karlsson is available as well

Maatta isn't the Penguins' #3. Schultz is. The issue with the Penguins defense is that it's only fine when everyone is playing well. Letang, Dumoulin, Schultz, Maatta and Oleksiak as your #1-#5 is just fine, unless they're all playing to the best of their abilities. I think the Penguins would be smart to target another #3 defenseman to push Maatta to the bottom pair with Oleksiak. How they're going to add that, I have no idea.

 

[Peat]

I’m down to a defensive shakeup. Maatta should 100% be available. We need a more complete #3D than Maatta. Scandella would be of interest, but Buffalo has no reason to trade him.

Who knows, Karlsson is available as well

You want a more complete 3D, so you'd trade for a guy who's only once got near the season total Maatta is online for, a total Maatta has got before? I feel like I'm missing something here.

 

[Phil68]

If the Pens miss the playoffs, who leaves who stays you guys think?

 

[Shaffer]

Maatta isn't the Penguins' #3. Schultz is. The issue with the Penguins defense is that it's only fine when everyone is playing well. Letang, Dumoulin, Schultz, Maatta and Oleksiak as your #1-#5 is just fine, unless they're all playing to the best of their abilities. I think the Penguins would be smart to target another #3 defenseman to push Maatta to the bottom pair with Oleksiak. How they're going to add that, I have no idea.

IMO, Maatta doesn’t fit next year if Letang, Schultz, and Oleksiak are our RDs. Oleksiak could play LD, though. I just think Maatta should be traded this offseason IF we get fast, more defensive partner(as I have a Maatta shirt on right now).

Dumoulin-Letang
??????-Schultz
??????-Oleksiak

That’s what I’ll base it off of. Getting a faster, more defensive partner for Schultz and getting a shot-blocking D for Oleksiak is key. Now, Oleksiak could just play LD and Ruhwedel be his RD.

Whatever our defense is now, is not working. I’m trying to suggest the most realistic possibility, because I could easily suggest trading Letang.

 

[Shaffer]

You want a more complete 3D, so you'd trade for a guy who's only once got near the season total Maatta is online for, a total Maatta has got before? I feel like I'm missing something here.

Whatever our defense is now, is not working. What is going to change if we don’t change anything? Who leaves the lineup then?

 

[Empoleon8771]

I made this comment to KIRK a couple of days ago in one of the PGTs. The Penguins need to get another defensemen capable of eating actual #3 minutes. I don't know if the Penguins choose to allocate their minutes like this, but they don't give their middle pair enough minutes and give their bottom pair too many minutes. I firmly believe your entire top-4 should be getting more than 20 minutes a night and your bottom pair should be below 17 minutes a night. The Penguins seem to like running with much more even 2nd and 3rd pairs than I'd like to see a team have. It causes guys like Hunwick to play 18 minutes a night, when they should only be closer to 15, and Letang to have to eat more minutes than he should.

The Penguins should build their defense like the Hawks had their defense. They had a capable bottom pair a lot of the time, they still relied on their top-4 though. Their bottom pair in 2013-2014 was Leddy-Roszival, which is a very capable bottom pair. They both had less than 17 minutes TOI per game.

Your bottom pair should be good enough to handle more minutes, but you shouldn't plan on having your bottom pair be playing the minutes that the Penguins current bottom pair is playing. If you want your bottom pair to be playing the minutes you're giving it, you need a top-4 defenseman on your bottom pair. That's what the Kings did in 2014, when they had Regehr as their #5.

Basically, to sum up what I'm saying, the Penguins don't have the personnel to run with their defense like they're currently running with. They definitely need a top-4 defenseman any way you look at it. You either need another guy capable of playing over 20 minutes a night or another top-4 D to push a top-4 D to the 3rd pair.

 

[BHD]

If the Pens miss the playoffs, who leaves who stays you guys think?

I'd entertain moving Guentzel, Shaery, and/or Maatta.

 

[Empoleon8771]

If the Pens miss the playoffs, who leaves who stays you guys think?

It's borderline impossible for the Penguins to miss the playoffs, is this a serious question?

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Bad defense is bad

Defense is badly coached, is more the issue. The players we have are not the issue and I strongly believe that. I think the coaching isn't the right fit anymore.

Jacques Martin is good with individual players, but as a collective, if you remember his style of defense, it doesn't fit well with Sullivan's uptempo style and I think it's come to a head at the moment.

 

[The Old Master]

If the Pens miss the playoffs, who leaves who stays you guys think?

could we please save this till after the playoffs.....please?

 

[MtlPenFan]

Defense is badly coached, is more the issue. The players we have are not the issue and I strongly believe that. I think the coaching isn't the right fit anymore.

Jacques Martin is good with individual players, but as a collective, if you remember his style of defense, it doesn't fit well with Sullivan's uptempo style and I think it's come to a head at the moment.

I need more than cut and paste complaints here.

I want you to explain not only why the coaching is bad right now by giving specific X's and O's examples, but what they can do strategically/systematically to fix it.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I need more than cut and paste complaints here.

I want you to explain not only why the coaching is bad right now by giving specific X's and O's examples, but what they can do strategically/systematically to fix it.

I've never been good at explaining the X's and O's of the defense, but the last few years, it worked gang busters at times because we had very mobile defensemen waiting in the wings to rotate in during injuries. Right now, we still have a fairly mobile group, but the pairings are a problem and the team is so married to some that they refuse to try anything new in fear of it getting worse.

The defense doesn't come up often enough to rush as a 5 man unit with the forwards like it did the last 2yrs, they forwards are also not coming in as deep anymore to provide puck support, where as the last 2yrs, you saw forwards come in deep and then provide that puck support, but the defense, the communication seems to be lacking as well as what to do when they are pressured by the forecheck, the defense just defaults to "pass back into our zone, regroup" instead of skating it out of trouble, they pin themselves in, hem themselves behind the net or in the corners by passing it off the boards which every team reads against us this year instead of skating it out and passing it up on the transition, Letang seems to want to hold on to it far too long and then loses the puck and then turns it over, but that's a whole different problem with him.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I made this comment to KIRK a couple of days ago in one of the PGTs. The Penguins need to get another defensemen capable of eating actual #3 minutes. I don't know if the Penguins choose to allocate their minutes like this, but they don't give their middle pair enough minutes and give their bottom pair too many minutes. I firmly believe your entire top-4 should be getting more than 20 minutes a night and your bottom pair should be below 17 minutes a night. The Penguins seem to like running with much more even 2nd and 3rd pairs than I'd like to see a team have. It causes guys like Hunwick to play 18 minutes a night, when they should only be closer to 15, and Letang to have to eat more minutes than he should.

The Penguins should build their defense like the Hawks had their defense. They had a capable bottom pair a lot of the time, they still relied on their top-4 though. Their bottom pair in 2013-2014 was Leddy-Roszival, which is a very capable bottom pair. They both had less than 17 minutes TOI per game.

Your bottom pair should be good enough to handle more minutes, but you shouldn't plan on having your bottom pair be playing the minutes that the Penguins current bottom pair is playing. If you want your bottom pair to be playing the minutes you're giving it, you need a top-4 defenseman on your bottom pair. That's what the Kings did in 2014, when they had Regehr as their #5.

Basically, to sum up what I'm saying, the Penguins don't have the personnel to run with their defense like they're currently running with. They definitely need a top-4 defenseman any way you look at it. You either need another guy capable of playing over 20 minutes a night or another top-4 D to push a top-4 D to the 3rd pair.

This is why I was hoping JR would bring in another top four guy this past summer. Obviously the ship has sailed, but a guy like McDonagh would have been huge. A top pairing guy who can also log 23+ minutes and play in all situations, and who is good enough to carry his own pairing, making the second pairing essentially another top pairing.

Obviously Letang playing like he has this year has just made the issue worse, but I think the rest of our defense are more complimentary players on a pairing rather than guys who can carry or anchor a pairing. And when they're not at their best, those pairings simply fall apart.

 

[MtlPenFan]

Basically we have a legit top pairing, then a handful of other guys who are better suited for a 3rd pairing role.

Losing Cole hurt more than I thought it would.

 

[Empoleon8771]

This is why I was hoping JR would bring in another top four guy this past summer. Obviously the ship has sailed, but a guy like McDonagh would have been huge. A top pairing guy who can also log 23+ minutes and play in all situations, and who is good enough to carry his own pairing, making the second pairing essentially another top pairing.

Obviously Letang playing like he has this year has just made the issue worse, but I think the rest of our defense are more complimentary players on a pairing rather than guys who can carry or anchor a pairing. And when they're not at their best, those pairings simply fall apart.

I like the Hjalmarsson suggestion a lot, but I'm not sure how reasonable that idea is. Put Hjalmarsson with Letang, Dumoulin with Schultz and Maatta with Oleksiak. Your D pairs are instantly good with that, because you definitely have a guy who can anchor each of those pairs. Dumoulin continues to remind me more and more of Paul Martin, especially with how his offensive game has seemingly progressed this year. I know Dumoulin's point totals aren't any better, but I feel like he's been better offensively this year than in recent years. He won't reach Martin's best, but I think he can reach what Martin was most of the time.

If you don't do anything, the Penguins defense isn't bad. Letang is clearly a #1, even when he's struggling (hot take, I think he has played well in 2018 too). Dumoulin has sold me on him being a #2, and if not a #2, a #3 who can anchor the 2nd pair at worst. Schultz is....I'm not sure. He's been surprisingly effective defensively this year, but his offense is a lot worse. I think he has been more of a 2-way defensemen this year than an OFD, which isn't what you want to see. He should be a #3 OFD, but I see him this year as more of a fringe #3/4 2-way D this year. Maatta is about the same I think, I'd consider him a fringe #3/4 2-way D. I think the Penguins defense would be better off with Maatta-Letang and Dumoulin-Schultz, but I don't think you'll ever see that. The defense isn't going to change at this point.

The Penguins have a #1, a #2, 2 complementary middle pair defensemen, a complementary bottom pair defenseman (Oleksiak) and 2 #6 defensemen (Hunwick and Ruhwedel). They need a top-4 D of some capacity to push everyone below Dumoulin down a spot.