Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building - Locked in until July

[Ogrezilla]

Sprong played 8 games and put up points in one of them. To say he was one of our best players is just silly. He was fine.

 

[RizzleMcRib]

Sprong played 8 games and put up points in one of them. To say he was one of our best players is just silly. He was fine.

But he had good "fancy stats" and helped get Sid started.

 

[madinsomniac]

How is he an NHL talent when he can't even stick in the NHL? He has NHL potential, but so far that's pretty much it. He wasn't playing extremely well why he was up. If that was the case he would have stayed. I don't know how they are "bungling his first year". That's the same argument users harped on about Pouliot. Management seemed to be pretty right on that. Also, if we don't win the cup it is surely not because Sprong isn't up here. Sprong at this point is far from being a player who makes or breaks a team.

Again, this isnt something you or anyone can win as an arguement right now... it will take years to find out. there are lots of ways to stunt a guys development... one is backlogging him in the AHL if he is ready to play at a higher level, because in some cases lazy tendencies develop from playing lesser skilled guys.... The pens have a poor historical record with prospects, despite their current crop. NHL teams are often loathe to play guys without experiance for playoff runs... opting for some scrub vet instead.... but if we didnt let Jake play into a key role last year, or Sheary and Rust the year before, or had traded for a vet backup rather than utilizing Murray... then we probably arent back to back cup champions...

Its possible demoting sprong was the right move, its equally possible he should have been utilized earlier in the season to find out what he had. Its also completely possible injuries lead us to needing a goalscorer at some point... and it may be nice to definatively know what we have in him...

Its not worth debating until more facts are known

 

[RizzleMcRib]

Again, this isnt something you or anyone can win as an arguement right now... it will take years to find out. there are lots of ways to stunt a guys development... one is backlogging him in the AHL if he is ready to play at a higher level, because in some cases lazy tendencies develop from playing lesser skilled guys.... The pens have a poor historical record with prospects, despite their current crop. NHL teams are often loathe to play guys without experiance for playoff runs... opting for some scrub vet instead.... but if we didnt let Jake play into a key role last year, or Sheary and Rust the year before, or had traded for a vet backup rather than utilizing Murray... then we probably arent back to back cup champions...

Its possible demoting sprong was the right move, its equally possible he should have been utilized earlier in the season to find out what he had. Its also completely possible injuries lead us to needing a goalscorer at some point... and it may be nice to definatively know what we have in him...

Its not worth debating until more facts are known

Guentzel was putting up numbers when he was called up last year. That's why they let Jake play. So was Sheary and Rust. This year so is ZAR. That's why they stuck and Sprong didn't.

Edit- I forgot about the 14 games Rust had 2015-2016 / and Sheary in 2015 - 2016.

 

[pistolpete11]

Guentzel was putting up numbers when he was called up last year. That's why they let Jake play. So was Sheary and Rust. This year so is ZAR. That's why they stuck and Sprong didn't.

Yeah, Guentzel forced their hand by producing when given the opportunity. Sprong didn't.

Sheary and Rust (and Kuhnhackl) didn't produce right away, but with the injuries at the time, they got the opportunity to play through it. They simply needed warm bodies. Sprong didn't get that chance, but that's just the way it worked out. Not really anyone's fault, it's just circumstance.

 

[madinsomniac]

Guentzel was putting up numbers when he was called up last year. That's why they let Jake play. So was Sheary and Rust. This year so is ZAR. That's why they stuck and Sprong didn't.

We are talking player development... something the NHL is decades behind on because of stupid attitudes towards it for a century... Yes the typical NHL plan is

Guentzel was putting up numbers when he was called up last year. That's why they let Jake play. So was Sheary and Rust. This year so is ZAR. That's why they stuck and Sprong didn't.

.... ZAR had like 29 points in 41 games when he was called up... Sprong has 47 in 51 games... Simon has 17 points in 21 games... None of them have the goal totals Sprong has....

Again not trying to say the Sprong shouldnt have been sent down, but I think your narrative is off a bit... this probably had more to do with other things than Sprong being NHL ready, maybe not wanting to waive a Rowney or Kuhn... the pens have a long history of doing this stuff with top prospects, and yes, sometimes it does throw them off course...

 

[Andy99]

Yeah, Guentzel forced their hand by producing when given the opportunity. Sprong didn't.

Sheary and Rust (and Kuhnhackl) didn't produce right away, but with the injuries at the time, they got the opportunity to play through it. They simply needed warm bodies. Sprong didn't get that chance, but that's just the way it worked out. Not really anyone's fault, it's just circumstance.

Slight revisionist history...they got the opportunity to play because Sully had them in WBS and trusted them...

 

[madinsomniac]

Yeah, Guentzel forced their hand by producing when given the opportunity. Sprong didn't.

Sheary and Rust (and Kuhnhackl) didn't produce right away, but with the injuries at the time, they got the opportunity to play through it. They simply needed warm bodies. Sprong didn't get that chance, but that's just the way it worked out. Not really anyone's fault, it's just circumstance.

But I can see how people look at what some players get in terms of leeway and others dont and wonder how that flys... This is nothing new... and sometimes it has some reasonable purpose behind it, but it is something people are going to call out and justifiably so...

 

[RizzleMcRib]

We are talking player development... something the NHL is decades behind on because of stupid attitudes towards it for a century... Yes the typical NHL plan is



.... ZAR had like 29 points in 41 games when he was called up... Sprong has 47 in 51 games... Simon has 17 points in 21 games... None of them have the goal totals Sprong has....

Again not trying to say the Sprong shouldnt have been sent down, but I think your narrative is off a bit... this probably had more to do with other things than Sprong being NHL ready, maybe not wanting to waive a Rowney or Kuhn... the pens have a long history of doing this stuff with top prospects, and yes, sometimes it does throw them off course...

I meant putting up points in the NHL. Maybe I should have worded it better (I forgot about the 14 games for Rust in 2015-2016 and Sheary's not good 2015-2016). They stayed for lack of better forwards. Waiving Kuhn or Rowney does nothing for Sprong if he isn't going to be put on the 4th line because he wasn't going to be put on the 4th line.

What prospects do we have a history of doing this with?

 

[3074326]

We are talking player development... something the NHL is decades behind on because of stupid attitudes towards it for a century... Yes the typical NHL plan is



.... ZAR had like 29 points in 41 games when he was called up... Sprong has 47 in 51 games... Simon has 17 points in 21 games... None of them have the goal totals Sprong has....

Again not trying to say the Sprong shouldnt have been sent down, but I think your narrative is off a bit... this probably had more to do with other things than Sprong being NHL ready, maybe not wanting to waive a Rowney or Kuhn... the pens have a long history of doing this stuff with top prospects, and yes, sometimes it does throw them off course...

I'm confused. He said those guys produced when they were called up. They did do that more than Sprong. There really isn't any argument against that.

I think the team is just taking it slow with Sprong. Nothing more, nothing less. And I'm ok with that.

 

[pistolpete11]

Slight revisionist history...they got the opportunity to play because Sully had them in WBS and trusted them...

They wouldn't have been on the team without injuries though. Dupuis was done for the season. I think Bennett was probably hurt. Porter got hurt. Malkin missed time which if I remember correctly forced Fehr to center. Fehr missed a good deal of time as well. They dumped Plotnikov. They had already sent Sprong back to juniors. Their options were nothing but guys that Sully had in WBS.

 

[pistolpete11]

But I can see how people look at what some players get in terms of leeway and others dont and wonder how that flys... This is nothing new... and sometimes it has some reasonable purpose behind it, but it is something people are going to call out and justifiably so...

What is the purpose of calling something out if there is a reasonable purpose behind it? That's arguing against reason.

 

[Andy99]

They wouldn't have been on the team without injuries though. Dupuis was done for the season. I think Bennett was probably hurt. Porter got hurt. Malkin missed time which if I remember correctly forced Fehr to center. Fehr missed a good deal of time as well. They dumped Plotnikov. They had already sent Sprong back to juniors. Their options were nothing but guys that Sully had in WBS.

After Sully took over. Bennett was injured twice, and Kunitz was out but only for a couple weeks in January....but the other injuries were not wings....Fehr, Bonino and Geno. They were giving four wings a substantial role on the big club...Sheary, Rust, Kuhn and Wilson. Porter also...Rust, Porter and Wilson got injured late too..

 

[madinsomniac]

I meant putting up points in the NHL. Maybe I should have worded it better. Waiving Kuhn or Rowney does nothing for Sprong if he isn't going to be put on the 4th line because he wasn't going to be put on the 4th line.

What prospects do we have a history of doing this with?

My gosh... not even counting the older pens teams... they did it to Letang, Fluery, Just about all their stud defensemen from the shero era... and some of them definately saw a downward trend afterwards...
In fact off subject a little, backlogging the D prospects behind all those scrub Veteran D probably ruined most of them... even Dumoulin was virtually NHL ready when we traded for him and he definately regressed for a while... and there were loads of guys simular to Sheary/Jake that never ever got a prolonged look up here....

and the whole thing about a fourth line in this NHL is you dont have to build a old school defensive grinder line... that line sees so few minutes so often it would be fine to occasionally run some prospects on it and see how it goes... especially early in the season...


And as for putting up points in the NHL... Sprong was getting great looks until he started focusing on the defensive game moreso than the whole shooting thing... It would not have bothered myself or the majority of the fans if he had been given more games up here, especially how sid was playing with him here....


Again, not saying the move was bad... but there is plenty of reasons to want sprong in the NHL over a guy like Rowney or Kuhn who doesnt really provide any offense and isnt exactly a defensive stalwarth worth always having in the lineup...

 

[pistolpete11]

After Sully took over. Bennett was injured twice, and Kunitz was out but only for a couple weeks in January....but the other injuries were not wings....Fehr, Bonino and Geno. They were giving four wings a substantial role on the big club...Sheary, Rust, Kuhn and Wilson. Porter also...Rust, Porter and Wilson got injured late too..

Fehr was a winger on that team. They had Sid, Geno, Bonino, and Cullen down the middle. So whether he was hurt himself or whether he was moved to center to fill in for Malkin or Bonino, it opened a spot for one of the WBS guys. And whether Dupuis went out before or after Sully, it still opened a roster spot that they were not anticipating.

Point being, they had roster spots they needed to fill without any other options. So those guys got a chance to stick around. This current Penguins team didn't really have the same issue when they sent Sprong down. The spots they did have went to ZAR and Simon, and based on play, rightfully so in my opinion.

 

[Gurglesons]

I think the thing about Sprong is that he is an unknown. This puts fans into a fever as the unknown is always better than the known. We know what Sheary’s faults are, but not what Sprong’s are.

I see no issue with Sprong’s development so far. He played well for four games, trailed off when we got healthy.

 

[WDYT]

I think the thing about Sprong is that he is an unknown. This puts fans into a fever as the unknown is always better than the known. We know what Sheary’s faults are, but not what Sprong’s are.

I see no issue with Sprong’s development so far. He played well for four games, trailed off when we got healthy.

That really should be end of discussion. People are making controversy where there isn’t any. They are handling Sprong’s development in a completely rational way.

 

[pistolpete11]

My gosh... not even counting the older pens teams... they did it to Letang, Fluery, Just about all their stud defensemen from the shero era... and some of them definately saw a downward trend afterwards...
In fact off subject a little, backlogging the D prospects behind all those scrub Veteran D probably ruined most of them... even Dumoulin was virtually NHL ready when we traded for him and he definately regressed for a while... and there were loads of guys simular to Sheary/Jake that never ever got a prolonged look up here....

and the whole thing about a fourth line in this NHL is you dont have to build a old school defensive grinder line... that line sees so few minutes so often it would be fine to occasionally run some prospects on it and see how it goes... especially early in the season...


And as for putting up points in the NHL... Sprong was getting great looks until he started focusing on the defensive game moreso than the whole shooting thing... It would not have bothered myself or the majority of the fans if he had been given more games up here, especially how sid was playing with him here....


Again, not saying the move was bad... but there is plenty of reasons to want sprong in the NHL over a guy like Rowney or Kuhn who doesnt really provide any offense and isnt exactly a defensive stalwarth worth always having in the lineup...

If playing a little bit too long in the AHL ruins your career, then maybe you just aren't that good to begin with.

 

[Gurglesons]

If playing a little bit too long in the AHL ruins your career, then maybe you just aren't that good to begin with.

I can’t think of a single player that has been destroyed in development by spending too much time in the AHL.

 

[RizzleMcRib]

My gosh... not even counting the older pens teams... they did it to Letang, Fluery, Just about all their stud defensemen from the shero era... and some of them definately saw a downward trend afterwards...
In fact off subject a little, backlogging the D prospects behind all those scrub Veteran D probably ruined most of them... even Dumoulin was virtually NHL ready when we traded for him and he definately regressed for a while... and there were loads of guys simular to Sheary/Jake that never ever got a prolonged look up here....

and the whole thing about a fourth line in this NHL is you dont have to build a old school defensive grinder line... that line sees so few minutes so often it would be fine to occasionally run some prospects on it and see how it goes... especially early in the season...


And as for putting up points in the NHL... Sprong was getting great looks until he started focusing on the defensive game moreso than the whole shooting thing... It would not have bothered myself or the majority of the fans if he had been given more games up here, especially how sid was playing with him here....


Again, not saying the move was bad... but there is plenty of reasons to want sprong in the NHL over a guy like Rowney or Kuhn who doesnt really provide any offense and isnt exactly a defensive stalwarth worth always having in the lineup...

They played the goalie they drafted #1 because they had freakin Caron and Aubin. Seems to have worked out fine for him. I don't see how Letang's progress was hindered when he only got a handful of games his first season? He seems to be working out fine. Dumoulin in his first full season seemed to be pretty much on par for what he is now. So they really didn't hinder him either. Those D prospects like Morrow? Pouliot? Despres? None of those really turned out to be much of anything.

About the Sid thing, he wasn't responsible for that. Sid had 14 points in those 8 games. Sprong contributed on 3 of those, all in 1 game. The other 11? Also if it was because of Sprong, his production would have dropped off once sprong was sent down. Which it hasn't.

 

[AverageJoeFan]

I can’t think of a single player that has been destroyed in development by spending too much time in the AHL.

I agree but I would have to think that some players would get frustrated by the slowness. I can remember being 18-20 and I remember pretty clearly I wasn't exactly a patient person. Also, these kids, that are true NHL caliber players, have been elevated their entire life only to reach the AHL and be stymied by a process. I am sure there is some frustration for them..

 

[RizzleMcRib]

I can’t think of a single player that has been destroyed in development by spending too much time in the AHL.

I want to like this, but I am trying to figure out if it is sarcasm.

 

[madinsomniac]

I can’t think of a single player that has been destroyed in development by spending too much time in the AHL.

It happens... you can rush a player and ruin him... you can let a guy who is physically and mentally ready acclimate at too low a level and they never develop other skills and moves to offset their advantages against lesser competition....


For the record... the Pens are horrible at developing guys...

 

[madinsomniac]

If you look st our roster, the homegrown guys who weren't either out of the box ready for the NHL like Sid Geno and Maatta and who weren't developed primarily through a college program the Pens had little control over are who? Letang, Simon, and Kuhnhackl???

How many 18 to 20 year olds have we really brought in from jrs to wilkes barre and developed into nhl players

 

[RizzleMcRib]

It happens... you can rush a player and ruin him... you can let a guy who is physically and mentally ready acclimate at too low a level and they never develop other skills and moves to offset their advantages against lesser competition....


For the record... the Pens are horrible at developing guys...

Considering 15 players off the current roster, and 13 players on last years Stanley Cup winning roster came up through WBS or were drafted by Pittsburgh. I wouldn't call that horrible at developing guys.