Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building - Locked in until July

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Ogrezilla

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Is Guentzel really elite? I was hoping he'd take a big step this year after his amazing playoff run, but I'm hesitant to call a 45-point guy "elite". He looks more like a high end complimentary piece rather than an elite player this year.

Also, it's a little telling we've got to go back 13 years to find the last elite player the Pens drafted after the first round (other than a goalie, who all tend to be crapshoots when drafting), no?
which teams have done better?

And no, Guentzel isn't elite. But how many teams are drafting elite players on a regular basis?
 

Sidney the Kidney

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which teams have done better?

And no, Guentzel isn't elite. But how many teams are drafting elite players on a regular basis?

Where did I say regular basis? I simply stated that the one area the Pens have fallen short is in drafting high-end players. And maybe I wasn't clear enough, but I was referring to the time period during Malkin and Crosby's career when they're already on the roster.

A team like Tampa instantly comes to mind, with Kucherov and Point, as well as a guy like Palat. Although I guess Palat is closer to Guentzel level than elite. Or even Ottawa with Stone and Hoffman.

Like I said, my original post wasn't meant as a bashing the Pens thing. It was more about them being good at developing, but if there's one area to critique, it's recent ability to draft high-end guys rather than complimentary pieces.
 

Ogrezilla

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Where did I say regular basis? I simply stated that the one area the Pens have fallen short is in drafting high-end players. And maybe I wasn't clear enough, but I was referring to the time period during Malkin and Crosby's career when they're already on the roster.

A team like Tampa instantly comes to mind, with Kucherov and Point, as well as a guy like Palat. Although I guess Palat is closer to Guentzel level than elite. Or even Ottawa with Stone and Hoffman.

Like I said, my original post wasn't meant as a bashing the Pens thing. It was more about them being good at developing, but if there's one area to critique, it's recent ability to draft high-end guys rather than complimentary pieces.
you just listed one elite player. Maybe some others will get there. But maybe Jake will too.
 

Gurglesons

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Is Guentzel really elite? I was hoping he'd take a big step this year after his amazing playoff run, but I'm hesitant to call a 45-point guy "elite". He looks more like a high end complimentary piece rather than an elite player this year.

Also, it's a little telling we've got to go back 13 years to find the last elite player the Pens drafted after the first round (other than a goalie, who all tend to be crapshoots when drafting), no?

No, it isn’t.

Also, please tell me more about all these elite players teams like Chicago, Los Angeles, and Boston have drafted outside the 1st round because those are the only perennial contenders you should be comparing our drafting too.
 

Gurglesons

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Where did I say regular basis? I simply stated that the one area the Pens have fallen short is in drafting high-end players. And maybe I wasn't clear enough, but I was referring to the time period during Malkin and Crosby's career when they're already on the roster.

A team like Tampa instantly comes to mind, with Kucherov and Point, as well as a guy like Palat. Although I guess Palat is closer to Guentzel level than elite. Or even Ottawa with Stone and Hoffman.

Like I said, my original post wasn't meant as a bashing the Pens thing. It was more about them being good at developing, but if there's one area to critique, it's recent ability to draft high-end guys rather than complimentary pieces.

Tampa Bay missed the playoffs multiple times in the last ten years. Of course they have a better prospect pool.

Also, who is elite outside of Kucherov?
 
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Turin

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Tampa Bay missed the playoffs multiple times in the last ten years. Of course they have a better prospect pool.

Also, who is elite outside of Kucherov?

A lot of people seem unwilling to pay the price of success. Tampa has one Cup, Pittsburgh has five.
 
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Gurglesons

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A lot of people seem unwilling to pay the price of success. Tampa has one Cup, Pittsburgh has five.

Well, the other issue is it changes your drafting style.

The Penguins are going to go for players they know can come in and be factors versus risks. They have their all stars in Letang, Crosby, and Malkin.
 

Sidney the Kidney

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you just listed one elite player. Maybe some others will get there. But maybe Jake will too.
What? How did I just list one elite player?

No, it isn’t.

Also, please tell me more about all these elite players teams like Chicago, Los Angeles, and Boston have drafted outside the 1st round because those are the only perennial contenders you should be comparing our drafting too.

Outside the first round? Or outside the top 10? Because the Pens have been drafting in the 1st round, just not high. So ignoring players taken in the last first round is kind of disingenuous since the Pens have had picks in that range throughout the Crosby/Malkin era, they've just done very little with those picks (Bennett, Morrow, Esposito, etc.).

Boston, in particular, has done well. Marchand and Lucic were outside the first round, while Pastrnak was taken late in the first. Chicago's got DeBrinkat, Schmaltz, and Saad as either late first or later picks. Now, you could argue that they're on Guentzel's level rather than "elite", but that doesn't change the fact they've done it more than the Pens have.

LA's the only team who has been closer to par with the Pens, depending on your view on guys like Toffoli and Pearson and whether they're superior to the young guys the Pens have.
 

Ogrezilla

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What? How did I just list one elite player?
Well you typed a list that only included one elite player on it. I'm not sure how else to answer that question.
Outside the first round? Or outside the top 10? Because the Pens have been drafting in the 1st round, just not high. So ignoring players taken in the last first round is kind of disingenuous since the Pens have had picks in that range throughout the Crosby/Malkin era, they've just done very little with those picks (Bennett, Morrow, Esposito, etc.).

Boston, in particular, has done well. Marchand and Lucic were outside the first round, while Pastrnak was taken late in the first. Chicago's got DeBrinkat, Schmaltz, and Saad as either late first or later picks. Now, you could argue that they're on Guentzel's level rather than "elite", but that doesn't change the fact they've done it more than the Pens have.

LA's the only team who has been closer to par with the Pens, depending on your view on guys like Toffoli and Pearson and whether they're superior to the young guys the Pens have.
Marchand and Lucic were drafted only 1 year after Letang. And in all of this you continue to ignore Murray, which is just silly.
 

Sidney the Kidney

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Well you typed a list that only included one elite player on it. I'm not sure how else to answer that question.

First off, my original statement was "high-end" not "elite". So I'm not sure how Kucherov, Point, Stone and Hoffman don't qualify as "high-end".

Second, even if you stick to elite, which was not my original statement, I'd argue that a guy like Stone and Point are elite or on the verge of elite at their position. Stone's arguably one of the top 10 wingers in hockey, and Points quickly establishing himself as a Bergeron-type center (good defensively while still producing 60+ points).

Marchand and Lucic were drafted only 1 year after Letang. And in all of this you continue to ignore Murray, which is just silly.

Add Murray if you want. The reason I left him off is because goalies are such crap shoots that it's just as likely to land a stud in Round 2, 3 or 4, as it is in Round 1 when it comes to goalies. Position players (forward and defense), not so much.

I swear, this forum has a habit of nitpicking when someone dares suggest the Pens don't do everything the best. List the high-end players the Pens have drafted during the Sid/Geno era. It's literally two guys (if you include Guentzel). I'm not sure how my original statement wasn't accurate, especially when I never even said they were worse at it than Team X or Team Y.
 

Gurglesons

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What? How did I just list one elite player?



Outside the first round? Or outside the top 10? Because the Pens have been drafting in the 1st round, just not high. So ignoring players taken in the last first round is kind of disingenuous since the Pens have had picks in that range throughout the Crosby/Malkin era, they've just done very little with those picks (Bennett, Morrow, Esposito, etc.).

Boston, in particular, has done well. Marchand and Lucic were outside the first round, while Pastrnak was taken late in the first. Chicago's got DeBrinkat, Schmaltz, and Saad as either late first or later picks. Now, you could argue that they're on Guentzel's level rather than "elite", but that doesn't change the fact they've done it more than the Pens have.

LA's the only team who has been closer to par with the Pens, depending on your view on guys like Toffoli and Pearson and whether they're superior to the young guys the Pens have.

We’ve drafted a top four d man in the first round, a # 1 goaltender, a top six winger and a top nine winger. I think that is comparable to the Chicago package you’re bringing up. Also, Chicago went out in the first round 5 times in the last ten years.

Bruins got lucky with a late 1st. We drafted Despres with a late 1st who had his career derailed by injuries. We also got Maatta with a late 1st who has won us two cups playing top for minutes.

Don’t really get your argument. We also have twice as many Finals appearances as Boston have not missed the playoffs in the last ten years and have two more cups.
 

Sidney the Kidney

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We’ve drafted a top four d man in the first round, a # 1 goaltender, a top six winger and a top nine winger. I think that is comparable to the Chicago package you’re bringing up. Also, Chicago went out in the first round 5 times in the last ten years.

Again, you bring up irrelevant facts. How high you pick is based on how you finish in the regular season (apart from the final 4 teams getting the bottom four slots). Chicago going out early has literally zero relevance to how high they pick. Last year is a perfect example. They got swept in the first round, but it had zero impact on them drafting late 20s. It's not like getting swept suddenly saw them picking in the top 15.

Bruins got lucky with a late 1st. We drafted Despres with a late 1st who had his career derailed by injuries. We also got Maatta with a late 1st who has won us two cups playing top for minutes.

I didn't even mention decent, but not high-end, players like Carlo. So if you're going to start giving credit to the Pens for guys like Despres and Maatta, who aren't "high end", then you'd have to include a bunch of guys for those teams that I didn't bother mentioning because they weren't high end.

Don’t really get your argument. We also have twice as many Finals appearances as Boston have not missed the playoffs in the last ten years and have two more cups.

How is that relevant? I'm not criticizing the Pens' organization's ability to build a winner or to develop what players it does draft. So the number of Cups they've won literally has zero to do with what I originally posted that seems to have given people such fits.
 

Gurglesons

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Seeding would be effected as the Penguins would have had 5 of their potential 10 1st round picks in the lower 20s?

If the Hawks make it farther in the playoffs the lower their 1st round picks are. If they are knocked out in the 1st round or don’t make the playoffs their 1st round picks are higher?

Also, a team losing in the 1st round is far more willing to trade for additional picks.

Boston paralayed a Kessel deal into multiple picks which they then parlayed into even more picks with the Hamilton and Seguin trades as they didn’t view themselves as a legit contender in the Case of Hamilton.
 

Sidney the Kidney

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then Guentzel makes the high end list.

Okay, and? So since Sid/Geno have been in the league, the Pens' high end guys they've drafted are Murray and (generously since his production isn't there yet) Guentzel. That's two guys, and that's if Guentzel ends up like last year's version, not like this year's.

Again, read what I originally said that sparked this (about a lack of high-end players drafted). How is that factually incorrect?

My original comment didn't even say "Pittsburgh has drafted less high-end players than any other team in the league" or "Pittsburgh is literally the worst team at drafting". I made a statement about the lack of high-end players they've drafted (during the Crosby/Malkin era) and you and pixie have run with it, despite the fact neither have actually proven the statement was incorrect.
 

Sidney the Kidney

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I think you’d have to place Maatta, Despres, Murray, And Jake as high end.

Not to mention Rust would probably be a 40- 50 pt player the past two years if healthy.

So your definition of high-end is any player who is capable of being a middle six forward or middle pairing defender? My definition is someone who can be a top line/top pairing player.
 

Gurglesons

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Okay, and? So since Sid/Geno have been in the league, the Pens' high end guys they've drafted are Murray and (generously since his production isn't there yet) Guentzel. That's two guys, and that's if Guentzel ends up like last year's version, not like this year's.

Again, read what I originally said that sparked this (about a lack of high-end players drafted). How is that factually incorrect?

My original comment didn't even say "Pittsburgh has drafted less high-end players than any other team in the league" or "Pittsburgh is literally the worst team at drafting". I made a statement about the lack of high-end players they've drafted (during the Crosby/Malkin era) and you and pixie have run with it, despite the fact neither have actually proven the statement was incorrect.

We’ve drafted a top four defensemen, a top six winger, a top nine winger, and a # 1 goalie while winning two cups and going to an ECF in the last five years.

If you don’t understand the impact that going on essentially three potential cup runs and consistently being a contender has on draft picks, you’re not proving anything.

Your argument was Ottawa has better picks in later rounds.
 

WDYT

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Murray would unquestionably be considered a "high end" player. He's had a historic start to his career, though this year has been marred by injury and personal loss.
 
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Peat

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Just looking around, I'd say most teams only have one high end skater drafted after the second since 2010. Sure some have done better than that and it would be really cool if we had done better too - or had got a Gaudreau or Kucherov instead of a Guentzel - but I'm not sure we've done badly.

It's also clearly not an area of strength like development is though. Or undrafted players.
 

Gurglesons

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Just looking around, I'd say most teams only have one high end skater drafted after the second since 2010. Sure some have done better than that and it would be really cool if we had done better too - or had got a Gaudreau or Kucherov instead of a Guentzel - but I'm not sure we've done badly.

It's also clearly not an area of strength like development is though. Or undrafted players.

Every pick after the 1st round is a crap shoot. Funny that Sidney avoids mentioning players like DeAngelo when bringing up Point or the fact Ottawa moved the pick that let St. Louis get Tarasenko in the Stone draft.

Also his argument is we haven’t drafted well in the first round and OUR two last first round picks are Maatta and Kapanen.
 

Riptide

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Just real quick off the top of my head, we drafted Letang, Murray, and Guentzel all in the third round. I'm not sure who you're considering elite drafted late, but we do okay for ourselves with the picks we have.

Bergeron was a 3rd rounder. Kucherov was a 2nd rounder. Kuznetsov and Giroux were mid/late 1sts. Karlsson was a mid 1st. Yes, the best way to get elite talent is picking top 5. But many quality players get drafted a lot later then that.
 
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