Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building - Killing time with pointless rumors

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Regardless of what happens with Phil, this is not going to be a quick fix. JR built a real dumpster fire when he was scrambling to replace Bonino's absence for two years, and suffering from the effects of Tom Wilson living inside his mind.

This is going to be a multiple step, likely multiple year, sort of retooling. Getting the best return for Phil is important, but it's not going to solve things. Just like removing JJ is important, but it isn't the only move the blueline needs. Maatta's as big an issue as JJ is, albeit for different reasons. I still hate Gudbranson making $4 million to be a #6. I don't think Petts is best used as the LD on the second pairing, certainly not if we're keeping Gudbranson around. I'm not convinced Schultz is the guy we need on that second pairing either.

And that's just the blueline. Geno needs at the very least one significant, Jake-caliber winger.

 

[Extra Texture]

Love NHL network’s panels, especially with Rupp and Weeks. They’re fair to the players but also sensible in what they say, without being sensationalist or over the top. It’s always worth listening to, which is something you really can’t say about most sports coverage today

 

[Gurglesons]

Agreed, but I'm not sure what that should have to do with the Pens willingness to shop Schultz, because he certainly hasn't been a 5.5M a year defenseman since signing his 3 year deal.

Is that really his fault? The fact he was even somewhat decent last year given his injury was a miracle and the year before he got two concussions.

 

[Turin]

Regardless of what happens with Phil, this is not going to be a quick fix. JR built a real dumpster fire when he was scrambling to replace Bonino's absence for two years, and suffering from the effects of Tom Wilson living inside his mind.

This is going to be a multiple step, likely multiple year, sort of retooling. Getting the best return for Phil is important, but it's not going to solve things. Just like removing JJ is important, but it isn't the only move the blueline needs. Maatta's as big an issue as JJ is, albeit for different reasons. I still hate Gudbranson making $4 million to be a #6. I don't think Petts is best used as the LD on the second pairing, certainly not if we're keeping Gudbranson around. I'm not convinced Schultz is the guy we need on that second pairing either.

And that's just the blueline. Geno needs at the very least one significant, Jake-caliber winger.

This deal, Hagelin back, plus a better defenseman eventually -> boom they have a better roster than the team that wins the Cup this year.

 

[Riptide]

JJ sucks ass, but even without him the Defence is not that good. JR better be looking for another top-4 guy...

Except that without him it goes from being critically flawed, to just "not that good". And you can win with the latter.

 

[KIRK]

Is that really his fault? The fact he was even somewhat decent last year given his injury was a miracle and the year before he got two concussions.

Those are tough breaks, but you need more from him for what you paid for him. It may not be entirely fair under the circumstances you note to say that, but truth be told I've NEVER seen Schultz as a 5.5M per year defender and thought that contract was too much when JR gave it.

 

[Riptide]

I think both Schultz and Maatta should be shopped.

JJ+Maatta, absolutely. There's a TON of risk in moving Schultz this summer as there's few RD PMD to replace him, and those that might be available certainly won't be cheap.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

This deal, Hagelin back, plus a better defenseman eventually -> boom they have a better roster than the team that wins the Cup this year.

You still need that scoring punch for Geno. If we get Zucker, I think he's probably playing with Sid, as he and Jake need a permanent fixture as well. I would like Hags back, but that just further muddies the middle-6 waters. If we're going after Hagelin, and we're going to have to take Rask back in the Zucker deal, I think you've got to move Hornqvist. We've got too many 2nd/3rd line tweener guys in Bjugs, McCann, Rust, Hornqvist, and now Hagelin and Rask. None of those guys bring the offensive punch we need for Geno's line, imo. Not even close.

Jake-Sid-Zucker
????-Geno-????
Bjugs/McCann/Rust/Hornqvist/Hagelin/Rask

 

[AjaxTelamon]

The difference between Zucker and Neal is that Zucker will provide something when not scoring. And more importantly is an excellent skater, which will give him a lot more options long term even if his scoring isn't amazing.

And honestly, I'd put him with Crosby and give Guentzel to Malkin.

Zucker - Crosby - McCann/Simon/Rust
Guentzel - Malkin - Hornqvist/XXXXX

I would as well, Jake and PH if he's anywhere near right would at least give Geno the support he needs. If that's the best trade we can do, then I suppose it is. I'd be concerned with what JR would do with 7m in cap space anyways.

 

[Gurglesons]

Those are tough breaks, but you need more from him for what you paid for him. It may not be entirely fair under the circumstances you note to say that, but truth be told I've NEVER seen Schultz as a 5.5M per year defender and thought that contract was too much when JR gave it.

I mean it was overpayment. But that was because JS had a career year and basically took nothing on the way to being a big part of a cup win.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I've been operating under the assumption that this roster is going to take multiple off-seasons to fix. At least this summer, this upcoming season, and next summer--if things work out well. This GM took two seasons and like a dozen assets to fix the hole simply left by Bonino leaving, and it caused him to neglect other areas of the roster as well. Then he let Tom Wilson in his head, switched up a winning formula for no reason, and here we are.

Even if we put in the effort, there's no real telling if/when this team fixes things. Moving Phil is the first piece, and a crucial one, but there are way more things that need to happen for us to be legitimate competitors for the Cup again before Geno and Letang's deals are up in three years.

 

[KIRK]

I mean it was overpayment. But that was because JS had a career year and basically took nothing on the way to being a big part of a cup win.

No, I get that, but when you have a team loaded with fair contracts and slight overpayments, there's next to no margin for error for a GM.

 

[Gurglesons]

No, I get that, but when you have a team loaded with fair contracts and slight overpayments, there's next to no margin for error for a GM.

JR had a margin. He just basically made lazy ass signings for worse players while letting good ones walk..

And actually got commended for it by some around here..

 

[Ginormousthumbs]

I might put down $20 on the Pens not making the playoffs this season.

 

[SEALBound]

Zucker, Rust, AND McCann on their off wings. Very Penguins like . . .

Young one, let me tell you the tale of James "The Real Deal" Neal...

I'd be content with them just moving Johnson and not touching the defense otherwise. It's risky, but I'm okay with it.

Dumo-Tang
Maatta-Schultz
Petts-Gudbranson

I'm content with that. Doesn't mean I'm in love with it but if the forward group improves, this would suffice. Doesn't mean you can't look for an in-season trade, something along the lines of Scuds-Daley but with Maatta and a guy like Martinez or Scandella or...maybe someone struggling a bit.

JJ sucks ass, but even without him the Defence is not that good. JR better be looking for another top-4 guy...

I think it's a capable defense. I think there's more to fixing the team defense than just fixing the defensive players. JJ gone will help, I think we all agree on that. But so much more, so-so-SO-SOOOOOO much more needs to happen in terms of structure, systems, and commitment. That more than anything will help.

If Phil truly wants to play with great players, he won’t go to Minn...no one is there...of course, maybe that’s less important than getting away from Sully...

I think he's one of those "guys that are content at this point in their career having won 2 Cups" guys. At this point too, he's gonna be an odd UFA. He'll be, what 33-34 when his deal expires. Does he retire after that? One-year contract? Will anyone want him at that point? I think at this stage in his game, his "where am I going to play out my career and retire" has to start creeping in.

 

[Malkinstheman]

Except that without him it goes from being critically flawed, to just "not that good". And you can win with the latter.

Sure, you can win but you're just putting yourself at a disadvantage. Although if your forwards atleast mesh really well then its a different story. Last year everything was a mess for the team.

 

[Tom Hanks]

I've been operating under the assumption that this roster is going to take multiple off-seasons to fix. At least this summer, this upcoming season, and next summer--if things work out well. This GM took two seasons and like a dozen assets to fix the hole simply left by Bonino leaving, and it caused him to neglect other areas of the roster as well. Then he let Tom Wilson in his head, switched up a winning formula for no reason, and here we are.

Even if we put in the effort, there's no real telling if/when this team fixes things. Moving Phil is the first piece, and a crucial one, but there are way more things that need to happen for us to be legitimate competitors for the Cup again before Geno and Letang's deals are up in three years.

Things can change pretty quickly especially when you have the main components we do.

Although it can be for better or worse.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Things can change pretty quickly especially when you have the main components we do.

Although it can be for better or worse.

Eh, I don't know. Again, it took us multiple seasons and a ton of assets to fix the Bonino void. I'm not sure this team's capable of fixing things to the degree they need to be fixed by the time Geno and Letang are done. Revamp the 2nd pairing. Find a RW for Jake and Sid. Find at least one winger of Jake-caliber for Geno. Move out all the players needed to necessitate those changes. And the moves can't miss, or it just tacks on more time wasted.

It's certainly possible, and this summer is going to be colossal in terms of what direction this team is headed, but I'm not exactly hopeful JR is capable of fixing it specifically.

 

[pensfan71]

lol Phil will get eaten alive in the West

 

[KIRK]

JR had a margin. He just basically made lazy ass signings for worse players while letting good ones walk..

And actually got commended for it by some around here..

Some . . . but not all . . .

 

[SEALBound]

Not roster related but........

f***. He doesn't get enough blame for the garbage defensive system we see on the ice. I'm a little surprised he hasn't been canned. At the same time, there's a reason he hasn't been hired.

Is that really his fault? The fact he was even somewhat decent last year given his injury was a miracle and the year before he got two concussions.

Same thing happened to Hunwick. He was quite decent before his concussion then was garbage when he came back. Didn't stop everyone here, yourself included, from railing on him night and day.

Don't me wrong, I wanted him gone too. Re: Schultz, I highly doubt we can trade and replace and be in a better position. Sorry everyone, Schultz is staying. 100%.

JJ+Maatta, absolutely. There's a TON of risk in moving Schultz this summer as there's few RD PMD to replace him, and those that might be available certainly won't be cheap.

Exactly. The guys like Schultz or better than Schultz, aren't available for what we can give up. Schultz, as of now, has more value to us than what he brings back in a trade. Now, if we want to talk to Minny about some guys and still want JJ in the mix, JJ+Schultz+Simon for Spurgeon+Rask may be a consideration.

I've been operating under the assumption that this roster is going to take multiple off-seasons to fix. At least this summer, this upcoming season, and next summer--if things work out well. This GM took two seasons and like a dozen assets to fix the hole simply left by Bonino leaving, and it caused him to neglect other areas of the roster as well. Then he let Tom Wilson in his head, switched up a winning formula for no reason, and here we are.

This is a bad comment to make for a couple reasons. One, we absolutely know that JR can take a shit roster and turn it into a Cup winner. So things 100% can be "fixed" this year. That said, the roster isn't as broken as you think it is.

Next, by what standard is it judge? What, if we don't win the cup you deem the roster "broken"? How much success, sans a cup, do we have to have for the roster not to be broken? 2017 roster was "broken" in some aspects but they still won. San Jose this year, by all means, had a fantastic roster...yet they lost. St. Louis was a bottom five team at one point...yet here they are in the SCF.

Point being, you're comment is shit.

JR had a margin. He just basically made lazy ass signings for worse players while letting good ones walk..

And actually got commended for it by some around here..

Oh yes, YES!!! Tell me...TELL ME Pixie...which "good" players did JR let walk. Oh please name who I think you're about to name. Oh please oh please.

 

[Will Hunting]

I might put down $20 on the Pens not making the playoffs this season.

Trading Phil is not gonna hurt in this regard. The other steps will tell us more, but trading Phil is necessary and step in the right direction.

 

[Tom Hanks]

Eh, I don't know. Again, it took us multiple seasons and a ton of assets to fix the Bonino void. I'm not sure this team's capable of fixing things to the degree they need to be fixed by the time Geno and Letang are done. Revamp the 2nd pairing. Find a RW for Jake and Sid. Find at least one winger of Jake-caliber for Geno. Move out all the players needed to necessitate those changes. And the moves can't miss, or it just tacks on more time wasted.

It's certainly possible, and this summer is going to be colossal in terms of what direction this team is headed, but I'm not exactly hopeful JR is capable of fixing it specifically.

Can’t fix it if you’re not looking for it which I think was the case when Sutter was here until he needed a more expensive deal we weren’t willing to pay.

Pick a style make a line up of types of players then plug in who we have/want to keep from the roster. You’d be left with some holes and some assests to trade and hopefully that’s enough. Only allow for pretty minor FA moves.

 

[dogthateats]

Haven’t read this thread, but seems like it is odd that the specifics of this trade were leaked. I don’t recall specific players names being leaked like this. Could be wrong.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

As far as Phil; I think both sides are ready to part ways. It's just a matter of getting Phil to waive for a deal that makes sense for the Pens, or getting a deal that makes sense from one of Phil's accepted teams.

I don't think it'll be too hard to get Phil to waive. He played like he wanted out this season anyway, and once he knows for certain this team no longer wants him around, he'll probably be more likely to waive. If the Pens don't get an offer they like from a team he'll accept a trade to, he'll probably end up waiving to go to Minnesota anyway--it's both parties' fall back deal, I think.