Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building | Insert Witty Thread Title Here

[Gurglesons]

Lol Tampa? Have you seen their bottom six? Their Dcore? Our forwards and Defencemen are clearly better. Same with Toronto but Toronto has alot more depth up front than Tampa but NO D depth.

Uh. Tampa's bottom six is better than ours as it stands right now?

Paquette is better than Rowney / McClement. Namestinov and Point are 25 - 35 pt 3Cs. Add in Gourde and Callahan. And you've got Brown and Kunitz.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

May as well give up on the hunt for the 3C til next off season. Then the Pens can sign Valtteri Filppula.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I say we just give back that Cup now because clearly we don't have a 3C. It's only right.

 

[Riptide]

The only valid complaint you can make about JR's offseason is bringing in Hunwick if you think Ruhwedel can be an everyday player. Otherwise, complaints about him are unfounded. Complaining that the Penguins don't have a 3C on September 19th isn't a valid complaint. Rutherford has just done so little this offseason that I don't know how you can complain about him. What all has he even done? Brought in Niemi and Hunwick as free agents and traded for Reaves? That's really about it.

I'm one of the few who's been pumping Ruhwedel's tires since last June, and even I think the Hunwick was a good signing.

Sure it is. They do not have one, and it's a hole that they need to address. I have no issues with someone complaining about that. As long as they also understand and point out WHY JR likely hasn't filled that hole yet.

There is a difference between criticizing Rutherford for legitimate or semi legitimate reasons and then having an intelligent discussion around it, and just complaining for the sake of complaining.

 

[Riptide]

I think if you're going to tie up over 20 mil in your top four you should have confidence that lesser defensemen can fill out the bottom pairing. If Cole leaves you have two mil the spend on a #5.

Center. Teams win championships based on centers.

Hunwick can also easily slide over and take Cole's spot and Ruhwedel (if he plays like he did last year) can jump into the #6 spot. Having depth here - especially when you have Letang with the doctor on speed dial is important.

Teams also win with skilled depth. Just having center depth isn't enough... circa 2010-2015.

 

[Gurglesons]

I say we just give back that Cup now because clearly we don't have a 3C. It's only right.

That isn't what I am saying. I just think people will be surprised by the cost and it could've been slightly addressed in free agency.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Tampa Bay bottom-6:

Kunitz-Namestnikov-Callahan
Gourde/Erne-Paquette-Brown

That's really not a good bottom-6. I'd take the Penguins bottom-6 with Blueger and Rowney as their centers over that pretty easily. No one in that bottom-6 even hit 30 points last year, Kunitz only had 29, Callahan had 28, Namestnikov had 28, Brown had 6 (in 64 games, had 22 in 79 games the year before), Paquette had 10 (in 58 games, had 11 in 58 games the year before) and Gourde and Erne didn't play much more than a quarter of the season.

I'm one of the few who's been pumping Ruhwedel's tires since last June, and even I think the Hunwick was a good signing.

Sure it is. They do not have one, and it's a hole that they need to address. I have no issues with someone complaining about that. As long as they also understand and point out WHY JR likely hasn't filled that hole yet.

There is a difference between criticizing Rutherford for legitimate or semi legitimate reasons and then having an intelligent discussion around it, and just complaining for the sake of complaining.

I'm fine with signing Hunwick, but I do understand that there's a legitimate argument against it depending on how you view Ruhwedel.

I don't think people in here are just complaining about JR not filling the 3C hole, as far as I can tell. If that would be the case, this discussion would have died out long ago. People are complaining that both JR hasn't traded for a 3C and the 3C option won't be good enough, which is just way too premature to say.

 

[Riptide]

But that is assuming we go into the deadline without upgrading the #6 role which is far easier to do as we've seen in the past two years.

Do you believe a 3C is easier to replace than a #6d?

It's not. Getting a legitimate #3C is hard as ****. Even finding someone who can fake their way through it will be hard. Finding depth D (or even a 4/5 replacement) is significantly easier. That said... I still sign Hunwick and keep looking for a #3C vs signing Bonino.

You're worried about the price to upgrade the 3C spot, but think paying a 2nd and 4th to add depth on defense (Hainsey and Streit) is far easier and cheaper?

We've seen every year how expensive adding a depth defenseman is. Douglas Murray? Jordan Leopold? It's no cheaper than the price you're worried JR will pay to land a 3C at some point between now and the TDL.

Yes and yes. They might not exactly be cheap, but they're out there. Every team has 3-4 #4-7D who can play a varying amount of minutes, and there's always a solid handful available every TD. There's usually only a few centers available, and the position and role is usually a lot more demanding then what a team needs a depth D to do. And due to how few are available, the cost for them isn't cheap.

 

[Gurglesons]

Hinwick can also easily slide over and take Cole's spot and Ruhwedel (if he plays like he did last year) can jump into the #6 spot. Having depth here - especially when you have Letang with the doctor on speed dial is important.

Teams also win with skilled depth. Just having center depth isn't enough... circa 2010-2015.

I agree with this, I think we will end up sacrificing winger depth for center depth though unless TB blows up in a big way.

 

[HandshakeLine]

That isn't what I am saying. I just think people will be surprised by the cost and it could've been slightly addressed in free agency.

I was just being ridiculous. I don't really care about the 3C debate du jour, but it'll be interesting to look back and see what we have once the dust settles a bit and we actually figure out what's going on.

In general, though, I do take issue with the line of thought that if a team doesn't ice a maxed out cheat-code roster, then they have no chance. I should hope last season alone showed the holes in that line of thinking.

 

[PensandCaps]

Uh. Tampa's bottom six is better than ours as it stands right now?

Paquette is better than Rowney / McClement. Namestinov and Point are 25 - 35 pt 3Cs. Add in Gourde and Callahan. And you've got Brown and Kunitz.

No. Our bottom six is clearly superior. Point, and so will one of Gourde or Names will be in their top six. Paquette, Brown,cally and Kunitz are nothing.

 

[Shrimper]

I'd be fine with giving Bluegers and Johnson both 9 game stints in the 3C spot. See what they can do.

 

[Empoleon8771]

No. Our bottom six is clearly superior. Point, and so will one of Gourde or Names will be in their top six. Paquette, Brown,cally and Kunitz are nothing.

I think their entire forward lineup will look something like:

Killorn-Stamkos-Point
Palat-Johnson-Kucherov
Kunitz-Namestnikov-Callahan
Gourde-Paquette-Brown

What people ignore is that Brown and Paquette aren't everyday caliber players and Kunitz and Callahan are ideally 4th liners on deep teams.

But yeah, the Penguins are better in basically every area than the Lightning. Even without a 3C, I'd rather have the Penguins centers than the Lightning centers. Defense (because of how bad it is after Hedman and Stralman), goaltending and wingers aren't close either, it's clearly the Penguins. I find it funny when I see people propping up the Lightning so much, their roster really isn't that good. If losing Stamkos pushes them out of the playoffs entirely, how good is their team actually?

I'd be fine with giving Bluegers and Johnson both 9 game stints in the 3C spot. See what they can do.

9 game stints are irrelevant, unless you're just saying you want to give them a chance. They're burning a year off their ELC regardless.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

I think their entire forward lineup will look something like:

Killorn-Stamkos-Point
Palat-Johnson-Kucherov
Kunitz-Namestnikov-Callahan
Gourde-Paquette-Brown

What people ignore is that Brown and Paquette aren't everyday caliber players and Kunitz and Callahan are ideally 4th liners on deep teams.



9 game stints are irrelevant, unless you're just saying you want to give them a chance. They're burning a year off their ELC regardless.

And pricey ones at that. Our bottom six isn't bad at all, it's at worst average considering how strong our wingers are. Teams with better bottom six groups more than likely have relatively poor to middling top 6 forward groups. Having an elite top 6 and an elite bottom six flat out should not happen in a salary cap league. We're one player away from being pretty darn close.

 

[Shrimper]

I think their entire forward lineup will look something like:

Killorn-Stamkos-Point
Palat-Johnson-Kucherov
Kunitz-Namestnikov-Callahan
Gourde-Paquette-Brown

What people ignore is that Brown and Paquette aren't everyday caliber players and Kunitz and Callahan are ideally 4th liners on deep teams.

But yeah, the Penguins are better in basically every area than the Lightning. Even without a 3C, I'd rather have the Penguins centers than the Lightning centers. Defense (because of how bad it is after Hedman and Stralman), goaltending and wingers aren't close either, it's clearly the Penguins. I find it funny when I see people propping up the Lightning so much, their roster really isn't that good. If losing Stamkos pushes them out of the playoffs entirely, how good is their team actually?



9 game stints are irrelevant, unless you're just saying you want to give them a chance. They're burning a year off their ELC regardless.

Don't they avoid using a year of their ELC if they play 9 or fewer games? Or something like that.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

Don't they avoid using a year of their ELC if they play 9 or fewer games? Or something like that.

The clock is already started on them regardless of NHL games. Someone like Bellerive would fall under the 9 game rule.

 

[Empoleon8771]

And pricey ones at that. Our bottom six isn't bad at all, it's at worst average considering how strong our wingers are. Teams with better bottom six groups more than likely have relatively poor to middling top 6 forward groups. Having an elite top 6 and an elite bottom six flat out should not happen in a salary cap league. We're one player away from being pretty darn close.

I think Toronto is the only team in hockey that has a forward group on par or better than the Penguins forward group, even without a 3rd line center. It's not even a guarantee that is true this year either, because any regression from the big 3 would take them to below the Penguins. That isn't going to last though, that won't exist when Matthews, Marner and Nylander are up for extensions and they have to get rid of JVR, Bozak and Kadri due to the cap. That Marleau contract though, yikes.

Don't they avoid using a year of their ELC if they play 9 or fewer games? Or something like that.

No, that's only if you're playing in juniors.

 

[Riptide]

Here are some of the recent bottom six centers traded and their cost:
-Boyle traded to Leafs for a conditional 2nd.
-Filppula traded to Philly for Mark Streit (who was then flipped to Pits for a 4th).
-Ott to Montreal for a 6th.
-Desharnais traded to Edmonton for Davidson.
-Stalberg to Ottawa for a 3rd.
-Fiddler to Nashville for a 4th.
-Shaw to Montreal for two 2nds.
-Eller to Washington for two 2nds.
-Teravainen and Bickell for a 2nd and a 3rd.

I don't see a single bottom six center on that list who was traded for a 1st+.

The bolded were cap moves, not trades. Pittsburgh is not in the position to make such a move, and thus said players (or similar ones) would never be available to them. Using those two as examples is disingenuous.

The DD trade was in part to address a need and in part due to the ED and Edmonton's protected list. If they didn't move him (Davidson) they were going to lose him.

And Stallberg isn't a center, having only taken 13 FOs in the last 4 years.

That leaves Boyle, Ott, Fiddler, Shaw and Eller. Only the latter pair (assuming you see Shaw as a full time C) are legitimate #3Cs, and personally I see Shaw (when he's a C) as something closer to Boyle then Eller.

Obviously, very very obviously our definition of the type of center we need for this team is very very different.

The only player I see in there I would make a deadline deal for is Eller.

I'd pay a steep price for Flippula. The guy even in a down year last year still put up 35 ES points and 42 overall, and is a pass first center, while typically being good on faceoffs and not bad defensively.

Honestly, out of all the guys even conceivably available, Flippula would rank near the top of that list.

 

[Shrimper]

The clock is already started on them regardless of NHL games. Someone like Bellerive would fall under the 9 game rule.

It's been five years since we drafted Teddy?! Jesus that went quick.

 

[madinsomniac]

And we didn't win the cup?

We are talking about chamionship teams and how they've had tremendous center depth since the lockout.

But if we could make the playoffs with the ragtag group we ran out the final two months of the season then, what is the big deal going into the season with a few things to try out then trading for someone later?

I don't know why people think a team must be set before camp or the season starts... later major acquisitions always play a part in cup runs... especially true for all pens cup winners...

 

[HandshakeLine]

But if we could make the playoffs with the ragtag group we ran out the final two months of the season then, what is the big deal going into the season with a few things to try out then trading for someone later?

I don't know why people think a team must be set before camp or the season starts... later major acquisitions always play a part in cup runs... especially true for all pens cup winners...

And more to the point, that there's not one simple equation to build a cup roster either. Nobody thought you could win a cup with rag-tag defense, but we did. We also had crazy center depth and were repeatedly bounced because there was no offensive support. There's no one way to win the cup.

It's been five years since we drafted Teddy?! Jesus that went quick.

Yeah, no kidding.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

It's been five years since we drafted Teddy?! Jesus that went quick.

Crosby is the one that gets me. Someone mentions how long he's been in the NHL and it takes me a second to process it. He in his thirteenth ****ing season now.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I wonder how his critics are going to react if Reaves becomes a really effective, physical 4th line player who takes players targeting our superstars to task.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Dreger said that 8 teams have inquired about Duchene, but basically all of them feel like they won't get him. I think this is going to drag out for a while.

 

[Riptide]

Uh. Tampa's bottom six is better than ours as it stands right now?

Paquette is better than Rowney / McClement. Namestinov and Point are 25 - 35 pt 3Cs. Add in Gourde and Callahan. And you've got Brown and Kunitz.

Key part. While I think Point is (for now) underrated, you can't look at this team without their #3C and say well I'd take that team because our C depth sucks. At least wait until we attempt to fill it - then you might have a point.