Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building | Insert Witty Thread Title Here

[Gurglesons]

I really wish people would stop trying to lump not having a 3C into having issues with the bottom-6 centers. The Penguins have about half a dozen options who could probably fill the 4C spot right now to an acceptable level. Their sole issue in the bottom-6 is not having a 3C, that's it. If Rowney doesn't work as the 4C, you can try McClement. If McClement doesn't work, you can try Blueger. If Blueger doesn't work (which I find highly unlikely), you can try Johnson. If Johnson doesn't work, you can try Dea. If Dea doesn't work, you can try McKegg.

The Penguins sole problem is not having a 3C. Stop exaggerating it to be overly dramatic. Signing Boyle (who got an awful contract) or Moore (who would have pushed Cullen out of Pittsburgh) would have done nothing to change that.

I mean, we can physically put a player in the 4C role. Just because they are there doesn't mean they are effective as we saw with Craig Adams.

 

[Gurglesons]

Are we going to rehash the discussion comparing the Penguins center depth to the 2013 and 2015 Hawks center depth? Because I really don't want to have to do that again

I mean, I think you're statements regarding that depth is completely digenious to how the Crosby and Malkin era has never had center depth this bad.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I think if you're going to tie up over 20 mil in your top four you should have confidence that lesser defensemen can fill out the bottom pairing. If Cole leaves you have two mil the spend on a #5.

Center. Teams win championships based on centers.

Teams also win with a deep defense. You don't think the fact the Pens basically could roll out three 2nd pairings helped them win a Cup? The Pens didn't really have a "weak" pairing that the opposition could exploit. Meanwhile, even a team like Nashville and San Jose, who both had great top fours, had to worry about sheltering their bottom pairing so that Crosby and Co. didn't eat them alive.

I'd personally rather have some combination of Sheahan/Bjugstad and Hunwick with Ruhwedel as the injury replacement, than Bonino and Ruhwedel with Pouliot as the injury replacement.

 

[Gurglesons]

Teams also win with a deep defense. You don't think the fact the Pens basically could roll out three 2nd pairings helped them win a Cup? The Pens didn't really have a "weak" pairing that the opposition could exploit. Meanwhile, even a team like Nashville and San Jose, who both had great top fours, had to worry about sheltering their bottom pairing so that Crosby and Co. didn't eat them alive.

I'd personally rather have some combination of Sheahan/Bjugstad and Hunwick with Ruhwedel as the injury replacement, than Bonino and Ruhwedel with Pouliot as the injury replacement.

But that is assuming we go into the deadline without upgrading the #6 role which is far easier to do as we've seen in the past two years.

Do you believe a 3C is easier to replace than a #6d?

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

But that is assuming we go into the deadline without upgrading the #6 role which is far easier to do as we've seen in the past two years.

You're worried about the price to upgrade the 3C spot, but think paying a 2nd and 4th to add depth on defense (Hainsey and Streit) is far easier and cheaper?

We've seen every year how expensive adding a depth defenseman is. Douglas Murray? Jordan Leopold? It's no cheaper than the price you're worried JR will pay to land a 3C at some point between now and the TDL.

 

[Gurglesons]

You're worried about the price to upgrade the 3C spot, but think paying a 2nd and 4th to add depth on defense (Hainsey and Streit) is far easier and cheaper?

We've seen every year how expensive adding a depth defenseman is. Douglas Murray? Jordan Leopold? It's no cheaper than the price you're worried JR will pay to land a 3C at some point between now and the TDL.

I really don't think a 3C is coming at a 2nd and 4th and if it does there is a chance we are praying TB plays really well or we are making another move. I think we are starting with a 1st and adding for any 3C worth a damn.

But obviously that is the root of the issue is that you believe we can acquire a Bonino replacement a lot cheaper than I do. That's fair.

 

[Empoleon8771]

There is no cookie cutter way to make a cup caliber team. Some teams that won cups only had 1 top-6 center and were carried by their wings (2013 and 2015 Hawks). Some teams only had 2 top-6 wingers and were carried by their top-6 centers (Penguins in 2009). Some teams had a ridiculous top-4 defense and a horrendous bottom pair that hardly even touched the ice (2015 Hawks and 2008 Wings). Other teams were extremely even on defense and ran with a defense by committee (2017 Penguins and 2006 Hurricanes). Some teams won with mediocre goaltending (2009 Penguins and 2010 Hawks). Some teams relied on their goalies to win them the cup (2011 Bruins and 2012 Kings).

There is no correct way to build a cup team. Why can't the Penguins win with only poor bottom-6 centers? Teams have won in the past with bigger holes than that. Even with poor bottom-6 centers, the Penguins still have 2 of the 3 best centers in hockey, an stacked wing depth, a very good defense and an elite starting goalie. Even if you assume that the Penguins are only going to trade for a poor 3C and all of their internal options for 4C end up as poor 4Cs at best, why can't they win with that?

Speaking of Boyle:

 

[Pens x]

I disagree. Now is not the time to trade for a 3C. Not before teams figure out what they have. What if there is a team out there with a junior center who excels in camp and starts the season in the NHL, thus making some other center available?

For example, and I am just using this as an example, but what if Cody Glass continues to score for the Golden Knights. And what if McPhee and co. decide that Glass is better off in the NHL than back in junior?

That would likely make one of William Karlsson or Oscar Lindberg available, if one of them isn't already.

This happens every year, around the league. I firmly believe JR is monitoring the situation elsewhere, while at the same time figuring out who is expendable from his own roster.

I would not be surprised if the trade for a 3C happens just before the start of the regular season...right around cutdown day.

We have a bunch guys that can play 3C for a game or two. What more do you need to see? None of these guys are the answer for a long term 3C....yet

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I really don't think a 3C is coming at a 2nd and 4th and if it does there is a chance we are praying TB plays really well or we are making another move. I think we are starting with a 1st and adding for any 3C worth a damn.

Who are you expecting to get if it's costing you a 1st and then adding? Duchene is the only guy on the market who would cost that. You really think guys like Eakin, Karlsson, Sheahan, Bjugstad would cost a 1st+?

I mean, JR paid a 1st for David Perron a couple of years ago (which didn't turn out so well). But at the time, Perron was considered a legitimate top six winger with potential to play on a top line. He wasn't a bottom six center.

Here are some of the recent bottom six centers traded and their cost:
-Boyle traded to Leafs for a conditional 2nd.
-Filppula traded to Philly for Mark Streit (who was then flipped to Pits for a 4th).
-Ott to Montreal for a 6th.
-Desharnais traded to Edmonton for Davidson.
-Stalberg to Ottawa for a 3rd.
-Fiddler to Nashville for a 4th.
-Shaw to Montreal for two 2nds.
-Eller to Washington for two 2nds.
-Teravainen and Bickell for a 2nd and a 3rd.

I don't see a single bottom six center on that list who was traded for a 1st+.

 

[ColePens]

That is horrific to hear about Boyle.

 

[Empoleon8771]

And speaking of the Perron trade, I remember before that trade that Edmonton was really shooting for Sutter in the deal, so the trade would have been Sutter for Perron. I think that shows what a perceived good 3C would cost in a trade (because Sutter for some reason was perceived to be better than he actually is). No one mentioned in here is going to cost a 1st and a roster player, the players that are going to cost that much to acquire are guys like Bozak and RNH.

 

[Gurglesons]

There is no cookie cutter way to make a cup caliber team. Some teams that won cups only had 1 top-6 center and were carried by their wings (2013 and 2015 Hawks). Some teams only had 2 top-6 wingers and were carried by their top-6 centers (Penguins in 2009). Some teams had a ridiculous top-4 defense and a horrendous bottom pair that hardly even touched the ice (2015 Hawks and 2008 Wings). Other teams were extremely even on defense and ran with a defense by committee (2017 Penguins and 2006 Hurricanes). Some teams won with mediocre goaltending (2009 Penguins and 2010 Hawks). Some teams relied on their goalies to win them the cup (2011 Bruins and 2012 Kings).

There is no correct way to build a cup team. Why can't the Penguins win with only poor bottom-6 centers? Teams have won in the past with bigger holes than that. Even with poor bottom-6 centers, the Penguins still have 2 of the 3 best centers in hockey, an stacked wing depth, a very good defense and an elite starting goalie. Even if you assume that the Penguins are only going to trade for a poor 3C and all of their internal options for 4C end up as poor 4Cs at best, why can't they win with that?

Speaking of Boyle:

You are correct. We could potentially win the cup with weak centers.

Sucks for Boyle.

 

[Gurglesons]

Who are you expecting to get if it's costing you a 1st and then adding? Duchene is the only guy on the market who would cost that. You really think guys like Eakin, Karlsson, Sheahan, Bjugstad would cost a 1st+?

I mean, JR paid a 1st for David Perron a couple of years ago (which didn't turn out so well). But at the time, Perron was considered a legitimate top six winger with potential to play on a top line. He wasn't a bottom six center.

Here are some of the recent bottom six centers traded and their cost:
-Boyle traded to Leafs for a conditional 2nd.
-Filppula traded to Philly for Mark Streit (who was then flipped to Pits for a 4th).
-Ott to Montreal for a 6th.
-Desharnais traded to Edmonton for Davidson.
-Stalberg to Ottawa for a 3rd.
-Fiddler to Nashville for a 4th.
-Shaw to Montreal for two 2nds.
-Eller to Washington for two 2nds.
-Teravainen and Bickell for a 2nd and a 3rd.

I don't see a single bottom six center on that list who was traded for a 1st+.

Obviously, very very obviously our definition of the type of center we need for this team is very very different.

The only player I see in there I would make a deadline deal for is Eller. Which wouldn't happen, because that was a cap deal to bring in Shaw and I think using the majority of those deals with actual good players is silly because they are cap deals or stop gaps.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Obviously, very very obviously our definition of the type of center we need for this team is very very different.

Clearly, because I'm not sure who you think the Pens should get if you think the guys on that list aren't good enough to be 3C on a Cup winner. The bottom three names, in particular, are about on par with Bonino.

The only player I see in there I would make a deadline deal for is Eller. Which wouldn't happen, because that was a cap deal to bring in Shaw and I think using the majority of those deals with actual good players is silly because they are cap deals or stop gaps.

The point was to illustrate the cost to acquire a 3C in the last calendar year. The latter three (Shaw, Eller, and Teravainen) are probably similar to the cost JR will have to pay to acquire a 3C. I just don't see any recent deals for a bottom six center that required a 1st+.

 

[madinsomniac]

I mean, I think you're statements regarding that depth is completely digenious to how the Crosby and Malkin era has never had center depth this bad.

What about 2010... both were basically hurt the last two months and we still made the playoffs?... Crosby, Malkin, and Staal only played like 40 games each and Still they easily made the playoffs and finished 1 point shy of the best record in the east and 2nd best in the nhl that season....

 

[Gurglesons]

What about 2010... both were basically hurt the last two months and we still made the playoffs?... Crosby, Malkin, and Staal only played like 40 games each and Still they easily made the playoffs and finished 1 point shy of the best record in the east and 2nd best in the nhl that season....

And we didn't win the cup?

We are talking about chamionship teams and how they've had tremendous center depth since the lockout.

 

[Gurglesons]

Clearly, because I'm not sure who you think the Pens should get if you think the guys on that list aren't good enough to be 3C on a Cup winner. The bottom three names, in particular, are about on par with Bonino.

The point was to illustrate the cost to acquire a 3C in the last calendar year. The latter three (Shaw, Eller, and Teravainen) are probably similar to the cost JR will have to pay to acquire a 3C. I just don't see any recent deals for a bottom six center that required a 1st+.

Well, it's weird that Teravaninen and Shaw would be good 3Cs that is beyond me because they play the majority of their time on the wing.

The issue with those deals is they are cap dumps by contenders in the offseason. Rosters are much more fluid then. I would cite Hanzal as the last time we saw a legitimate 3C like Bonino moved and it was what? A 1st and two 2nds?

I think Eller is a decent 3C we could make work here, but he is the opposite of Bones in terms of "big game" play.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Guentzel-Crosby-Sprong
Rust-Malkin-Kessel
Sheary-Sheahan-Hornqvist
Hagelin-Blueger-Reaves

Maatta-Letang
Dumoulin-Schultz
Cole-Hunwick

Murray-Niemi

Is this team good enough to win a cup? If it is, then why are people so hellbent on complaining about the center depth of the Penguins? If the Penguins can win a cup with a center depth of Crosby-Malkin-Sheahan-Blueger, then why would anyone complain about their center depth not being good enough?

Here's what I think it comes down to, you either think the Penguins center situation is bad enough where they can't win with it or you think it's not good, but they can still win with it. The more complaining you do, the more I think you lean towards the first option.

 

[madinsomniac]

I think Pixie and Pens x represent the group that wants a 2c or 1c type player for our 3c.... i also think they overrate Bonino's contributions to the offense a bit... Bonino's bread and butter here was screwing with shot and passing lanes moreso than converting iffense back the other way when he got the chance...

Most centers can lob a pass behind the d for our speedy wingers to get chances...

Most 1c or even 2 c players aren't going to want a longterm 3c role here...

The best bet is either a young guy stepping up big, a midseason cheap to aquire stopgap, or a guy who has big upside but is unproven.. guys like MD are an expensive pipe dream

 

[Gurglesons]

Guentzel-Crosby-Sprong
Rust-Malkin-Kessel
Sheary-Sheahan-Hornqvist
Hagelin-Blueger-Reaves

Maatta-Letang
Dumoulin-Schultz
Cole-Hunwick

Murray-Niemi

Is this team good enough to win a cup? If it is, then why are people so hellbent on complaining about the center depth of the Penguins? If the Penguins can win a cup with a center depth of Crosby-Malkin-Sheahan-Blueger, then why would anyone complain about their center depth not being good enough?

Here's what I think it comes down to, you either think the Penguins center situation is bad enough where they can't win with it or you think it's not good, but they can still win with it. The more complaining you do, the more I think you lean towards the first option.

I mean, I think any team with Crosby and Malkin is a potential to win a cup. Would I take that team as constructed over Toronto or Tampa right now in a seven game series?

No.

 

[PensandCaps]

I mean, I think any team with Crosby and Malkin is a potential to win a cup. Would I take that team as constructed over Toronto or Tampa right now in a seven game series?

No.

Lol Tampa? Have you seen their bottom six? Their Dcore? Our forwards and Defencemen are clearly better. Same with Toronto but Toronto has alot more depth up front than Tampa but NO D depth.

 

[Riptide]

Additionally, I don't think most people are expecting the wingers to carry lesser centers this season. I think most are fine with starting the year with less than optimal centers, but will be surprised/disappointed if the 3C spot isn't upgraded sometime between Oct. 5 and the trade deadline.

Our wingers will carry them - but only to a certain extent. I do not really think that is all that debatable, as it will happen. It's just a matter of how much.

 

[ColePens]

Yeah that's crazy. I'd take the Pens on paper right now over those 2 teams. Hands down. Those 2 teams would take the Pens over them as well. And they'd trade anything to be in our situation.

But even with a great 3C, no series is a guarantee win. Toronto wasn't even a match on paper for Washington last year and they had a hell of a series. Columbus matched up with us well on paper last year and that was a laughable series.

 

[Pens x]

I think Pixie and Pens x represent the group that wants a 2c or 1c type player for our 3c.... i also think they overrate Bonino's contributions to the offense a bit... Bonino's bread and butter here was screwing with shot and passing lanes moreso than converting iffense back the other way when he got the chance...

Most centers can lob a pass behind the d for our speedy wingers to get chances...

Most 1c or even 2 c players aren't going to want a longterm 3c role here...

The best bet is either a young guy stepping up big, a midseason cheap to aquire stopgap, or a guy who has big upside but is unproven.. guys like MD are an expensive pipe dream

Again, I've never suggested the Pens pursue Duchene. All I want is a legitimate NHL player to play 3C. I don't want some clown like Rowney who totally disappeared offensively in the playoffs or a totally unproven AHL guy. I don't want Sheahan, one of the worst offensive players in the league last year, either. I don't think that's too much to ask.

Let Blueger and co get some games under their belt this season when injuries occur. These guys are still unproven to hand over the keys full time at this point.

It's an obvious weakness in the roster. Let's not drag it out. But anything I say I get ridiculed with some homer excuse or some obscure stat.

 

[Riptide]

Because JR said before even the end of last season that he'd be adding muscle? So why does it make sense to then discuss that X amount of cap space was used on said muscle?

Because we discuss and criticize everything else to death? Just because he was going to do it, doesn't mean it was the right move for the team.

Speaking directly about Reaves... I like the move, and honestly do not mind the cost. I do not see dropping back in the draft that big of a deal, nor do I see Reaves cap hit being an issue (at least this deal). Extending him would likely be expensive (2-3m), but that's another discussion.

As for whether he'll actually accomplish anything... I doubt it. But he should be very entertaining to watch and I'll be doubly happy to watch him hammer the crap out of guys like Dubinsky, Staal, Wilson, etc for the 10 minutes he'll play each game. And for the times when our guys get really abused, it's nice to know that we have someone on the roster who can go do the same to the other team. Might not affect things overall... but at least my base needs and my emotional wants can be satisfied.