Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building | Insert Witty Thread Title Here

[SEALBound]

I agree with you on Pouliot, but I disagree with you on Sheahan. I think Sheahan would bring everything Bonino brought, but with a worse offensive ability. I think you'd have a 10 or so point drop from Bonino to Sheahan (although Sheahan is still young and he's had good offensive seasons before, so who knows), but I think Sheahan would be able to replace Bonino defensively, on the PK, at faceoffs and with possession stats.

The article for anyone who didn't read it:

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/...ed-wings-nhl-2017-season/stories/201709130143

Sheahan as a target makes sense in the "guys available now" sense. The Pouliot swap makes little sense. From both sides.

He better play at 4C. We don't need a worse offensive player than Bonino on the third line. We need someone who can get Phil the puck because that line is where Phil should be playing....

Ideally he slots in at 3C for now and closer to the TDL we bring in a legit 3C and he pops down to 4C.

Some major break pumping on Blueger needs to happen.

Said this last thread. I have hopes for the kid but a lot needs to happen first.

This is your actual issue.

Warts and all, Bonino is a very good 3C league wide. Good enough that he just got himself a fat, long 4 million per year contract in free agency. You want someone who is likely to be better - and soon. While we have the best 1-2 punch at center in the league, wicked winger depth and a high end D (at least top 10 in the league) and one of the very best goalies.

Bonino got that contract based purely on his playoff performances. He performs when it matters. To a contender, that's what they want.

That doesn't sound bad, for his size.

Problem is, he rarely uses it.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I can't speak about last season, but I watched Sheahan play his first couple years in the league and really liked him. He scored a lot of his goals right in front of the net... tips, banging in rebounds and using his big body to shield defenders. He's very good at screening goalies ala Hornqvist with his big frame.

He also had nice hands and I've seen him do some sick dangles. He even scored a goal doing the Stevie Y move and turned a few defenders inside out.

He's a big guy with skill. He could definitely use his size more, but Bones wasn't exactly a bruiser either.

I'm just shocked he's fallen like this because two years ago I was jealous the Wings drafted him and wished the Pens had a big, talented and young pivot like that.

Yeah, I didn't watch much of Detroit last year, but prior to that Sheahan looked pretty good in the games I saw. He didn't have the kind of skill (or lack of skill) that you'd think there was a possibility he'd go the entire year without scoring until the last game.

If the Pens acquired him, I wouldn't be surprised if Sheahan returned to the 15 goal, 30 point range. Maybe even a bit more if they decide to run Kessel on that line most of the season.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

How's Sheahan's skating?

He's a really big body, like 6'4 220, but he can skate well for his size. He a smooth player TBTH.

His skating doesn't make your soul ache like Bones, who has sloppy mechanics.

He's only 25 and that Wings team wasn't very good. It's a team in transition and I think losing Babcock killed some of his development. I think Sully and Recchi could get him back to form.

I think he makes sense and should be a buy low candidate.

He's definitely the kind of guy that if you can buy low on, it's well worth the risk. Big bodied, skilled pivots are at a premium in this league.

If he can turn it around, you have a premium, highly sought after asset. If not, you lose a mid round pick or so.

That's just what happens when you're playing on a collapsing organization under an incompetent coach. All of Nyquist, Tatar, Adbelkader, Sheahan, Mrazek and DeKeyser (aka their entire prime aged group) have been significantly worse since Babcock left. Nyquist and Tatar looked like they were on the way to being consistent 30-30 players in Babcock's last season, neither of them have even hit 50 points in each of the last 2 seasons. Abdelkader went from putting up a 50 point pace in Babcock's last season to not even having a 40 point pace in the last 2 years. Same kind of production dip came with Sheahan. Mrazek was at a .920 save% before Babcock left, has been at a .910 save% since. DeKeyser changed from looking like a promising top-4 D with top pair upside to only putting up 32 points in the next 2 years combined (put up 31 in Babcock's last season) while being a -20. Their entire prime aged group (or the young group when Babcock was still there) has had massive regressions under Blashill. Sheahan has just had the sharpest decline.

I didn't watch the Wings more than a couple games this year, whereas I watched them a ton before, so I don't know what went on with him.

Some guys regress and can never get back to form, and that could very well be the case here.

I just know he has a lot of attributes I really like and maybe he just needs the proverbial change of scenery like Cole, Nisky, Schultz, Daley, etc.

Adding him and Blueger to the mix at center would definitely add some serious upgrades in skill, vs the other internal options. Not saying much, but still a valid point.

 

[Gurglesons]

I imagine his expected contract also played a large part in that. I mean we probably should have run a poll on how many would have extended him at 2m. I suspect most would have.

I doubt Sheahan will ever be better than Bonino. But (last season aside), would he really be that much worse? And honestly, given some of the #3Cs we've had... I suspect that we'll be complaining about whomever we get.

And while the concern about the downgrade at #4C is legitimate, I think that's something that can easily be rectified later on - to the point that I'm not worried about it in the least right now.



My first thought on it is "slightly better than Bonino's". He's not Hagelin or Rust, but overall it's not an issue.

Nah. Half this forum all summer has said Bonino is at best an average 3C outside of a few weeks in May and June.

I don't have an issue with Sheahan for a 3rd because I like him as a 4C for us with his contract. I also don't think there is any reason for the Wings to give him away like that as they can pump up his stats with usage and likely get rid of him for at worst a 3rd at the deadline.

That's the assumption that I hate is that teams are going to sell low because of cap implications when the only teams that have the type of centers we need are not contenders and can easily move around their cap.

What does Detroit honestly lose if AA goes to the KHL? Nothing and he is still their property. Why sell low on a player like Sheahan when you don't have to?

 

[Peat]

And in case you hadn't noticed, most of us are happy to take an average 3C for 2m, so yeah, we'd have loved Bonino for 2m.

 

[Giant Yankee Pens]

If AA goes to the KHL Detroit now has a young promising player not playing for them, or even in their system/org. They would still have his rights, but it would still be unknown when/if he would play for them. Sheahan for them looks like a player who needs a change to succeed. If they trade him for a 3rd or even a 4th or a player like DP (another player needing a change), that would likely help them more when they are able to compete again, Sheahan would hit FA by the time they are ready to win again.
At least, that's how I see it. Most teams either have a guy like Sheahan or better at 3C or don't want to spend 2M on him to be a 4C. We can afford it now, see what he is, and still have room to make an upgrade mid season or at the deadline.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I'd like Sheahan. He's at least good enough to be 3c for the short term. We can then see what we have in both him and bleuger for a few months. If we decide one is good enough for 3c but we need something better at 4c that's usually a pretty simple move. And he's cheap enough salary and likey in assets that we could still look to make a bigger 3c addition later if need be. Even if means a rental at 3c.

And maybe they both work out and we have cheap effective bottom 6 centers.

 

[Gurglesons]

If AA goes to the KHL Detroit now has a young promising player not playing for them, or even in their system/org. They would still have his rights, but it would still be unknown when/if he would play for them. Sheahan for them looks like a player who needs a change to succeed. If they trade him for a 3rd or even a 4th or a player like DP (another player needing a change), that would likely help them more when they are able to compete again, Sheahan would hit FA by the time they are ready to win again.
At least, that's how I see it. Most teams either have a guy like Sheahan or better at 3C or don't want to spend 2M on him to be a 4C. We can afford it now, see what he is, and still have room to make an upgrade mid season or at the deadline.

I don't think Detroit cares if AA leaves, much like most teams don't I mean look at Dallas and Nichuskin. AA does as much as Sheahan for them.

You are looking at it from our perspectIve and not their's. Last time they used Sheahan as an offensive player in terms of zone starts he put up 36 points.

 

[SEALBound]

And in case you hadn't noticed, most of us are happy to take an average 3C for 2m, so yeah, we'd have loved Bonino for 2m.

We "loved" Bonino at $1.9mil for 2 years. That's what made Bonino tolerable was his $1.9mil cap hit.

I feel bad, honestly, for Nashville fans having to put up with him in the RS at $4mil.

I'd like Sheahan. He's at least good enough to be 3c for the short term. We can then see what we have in both him and bleuger for a few months. If we decide one is good enough for 3c but we need something better at 4c that's usually a pretty simple move. And he's cheap enough salary and likey in assets that we could still look to make a bigger 3c addition later if need be. Even if means a rental at 3c.

And maybe they both work out and we have cheap effective bottom 6 centers.

I do also like that he is a RFA as well. Coming off a bad season in Detroit, even if he rebounds and wants to stay, we may be able to work out a 2-3yr deal for cheap.

Also why I'd like to go after Karlsson as well. Cheap RFA.

Sheahan for the 3rd/4th it will take, Karlsson for Wilson+...we'd be in business longer term.

I don't think Detroit cares if AA leaves, much like most teams don't I mean look at Dallas and Nichuskin. AA does as much as Sheahan for them.

At their current state, I think you're right that they don't mind if he goes. However, "AA does as much as Sheahan for them" is just a pure falsehood.

 

[Andy99]

I'd like Sheahan. He's at least good enough to be 3c for the short term. We can then see what we have in both him and bleuger for a few months. If we decide one is good enough for 3c but we need something better at 4c that's usually a pretty simple move. And he's cheap enough salary and likey in assets that we could still look to make a bigger 3c addition later if need be. Even if means a rental at 3c.

And maybe they both work out and we have cheap effective bottom 6 centers.

The thing is this guy doesn't even play on Detroit's third line, yet we think they're missing something and he's good enough to center Kessel here and move up to second and first lines when Sid and Geno are out for their annual injuries? Come on. I have no problem taking a flyer on him if he's cheap, but at $2 mil salary and JR keeping a $1 mil cushion for injuries, we will not have the space to sign another 3C if he doesn't work out without significant salary going the other way

 

[Empoleon8771]

The issue with the 3C talk is that so many people are putting emphasis on being able to replace Sid or Geno when they get hurt. Guess what? The Penguins aren't going to win jack **** if either of those guys are hurt in the playoffs. You're putting both an unrealistic and unreasonable criteria on the 3C. Want to know what the 3C should be able to do? Be good enough to be a 3C. If you're only going to accept bringing in a 3C that can replace Sid or Geno when they get hurt...well, get used to not having a 3C then.

 

[Gurglesons]

The issue with the 3C talk is that so many people are putting emphasis on being able to replace Sid or Geno when they get hurt. Guess what? The Penguins aren't going to win jack **** if either of those guys are hurt in the playoffs. You're putting both an unrealistic and unreasonable criteria on the 3C. Want to know what the 3C should be able to do? Be good enough to be a 3C. If you're only going to accept bringing in a 3C that can replace Sid or Geno when they get hurt...well, get used to not having a 3C then.

I don't think anyone is worried about the playoffs.

I think it is that span from Nov - Feb where Malkin, Letang, and Crosby will miss four or five games because they are getting slashed every game.

And in terms of AA and Sheahan I just mean the Red Wings are going to suck despite who they ice

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Nick Bonino only had 19 assists last year, I guess Ian Cole can get the puck better to Kessel than he can as well.

Last year, probably. And Sheahan had about half as many for the past 2 seasons.

He's in the "slightly better than nothing scratch ticket" category.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I don't think anyone is worried about the playoffs.

I think it is that span from Nov - Feb where Malkin, Letang, and Crosby will miss four or five games because they are getting slashed every game.

And in terms of AA and Sheahan I just mean the Red Wings are going to suck despite who they ice

When both Crosby and Malkin were out in 2011, the Penguins went 21-11-4 in the games they missed. That's a pace of 105 points over a full season. Their center depth was Staal-Letestu-Talbot-Adams as their center depth. I think they'll be fine if Crosby or Malkin miss a couple of games then.

Here's where reality sinks in that people ignore for some reason: the Penguins still do extremely well when Crosby and/or Malkin are hurt. When Crosby missed 12 games to end the lockout shortened season? 9-3 with Sutter as the 3C. When Malkin missed 15 games to end last season? 13-2 with Bonino as the 3C.

Last year, probably. And Sheahan had about half as many for the past 2 seasons.

He's in the "slightly better than nothing scratch ticket" category.

So I'm guessing the only acceptable 3C solution to you is Duchene then?

 

[Giant Yankee Pens]

I don't think Detroit cares if AA leaves, much like most teams don't I mean look at Dallas and Nichuskin. AA does as much as Sheahan for them.

You are looking at it from our perspectIve and not their's. Last time they used Sheahan as an offensive player in terms of zone starts he put up 36 points.

I'm not looking at it from our perspective though. Sheahan has reportedly been on the trade block. Det is in cap hell and needs to make a move that way. Name another team who would give up more than a 3rd for Sheahan and has a need for a 3C or 2M 4C? It completely rreasonable to predict that Sheahan would be traded for a 4tth, 3rd or DP type player.

 

[Andy99]

Last year, probably. And Sheahan had about half as many for the past 2 seasons.

He's in the "slightly better than nothing scratch ticket" category.

Yes, 21 assists over two years makes him a fourth line player. That's where he plays. He's 25 already and in his prime. He is what he is. He should not play on the third line here

Edit: I'm not sayin Duchene or bust. Many of the Vegas centers, Dallas, and some other names thrown around here the last two months would be better options for 3C than Sheahan

 

[Empoleon8771]

Yes, 21 assists over two years makes him a fourth line player. That's where he plays. He's 25 already and in his prime. He is what he is. He should not play on the third line here

I too like ignoring context, like how much of a cluster**** Detroit has been in the last 2 years and how almost every player has experience a downturn in effectiveness since they've lost Babcock. But I guess it's easier to just say that every player is just a worse hockey player now than they were 2 years ago. That DeKeyser guy is real trash at this point.

Edit: I'm not sayin Duchene or bust. Many of the Vegas centers, Dallas, and some other names thrown around here the last two months would be better options for 3C than Sheahan

All of those guys are either not better solutions than Sheahan (mainly Karlsson) or would cost a metric **** ton to trade for. Why is Dallas trading Faksa or Shore right now for anything less than an overpayment? Why is Sakic going to lower his asinine asking price for Duchene? He asked for one of Nashville's top-4 D and a plus for Duchene.

 

[Gurglesons]

I'm not looking at it from our perspective though. Sheahan has reportedly been on the trade block. Det is in cap hell and needs to make a move that way. Name another team who would give up more than a 3rd for Sheahan and has a need for a 3C or 2M 4C? It completely rreasonable to predict that Sheahan would be traded for a 4tth, 3rd or DP type player.

Why does Detroit need to make a cap move?

Holland has said the only reason they'll make a move is if everyone is healthy after training camp.

They are cap complacent after putting Franzen on IR and not signing AA.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Why does Detroit need to make a cap move?

Holland has said the only reason they'll make a move is if everyone is healthy after training camp.

That's not very convincing for your argument if he's saying that their cap compliance is totally dependent on some guys being injured instead of healthy.

 

[Giant Yankee Pens]

When both Crosby and Malkin were out in 2011, the Penguins went 21-11-4 in the games they missed. That's a pace of 105 points over a full season. Their center depth was Staal-Letestu-Talbot-Adams as their center depth. I think they'll be fine if Crosby or Malkin miss a couple of games then.



So I'm guessing the only acceptable 3C solution to you is Duchene then?

That seems to be what people want. A 3C to fill in for Sid or Geno if necessary just isn't available that often and you have to pay a ton.

I don't know why people try to make the 3C a position needing a Duchene, but then hate the idea to try Jake at center. If the 3C position is super vital, which is a valid argument, Jake should have more value as a 3C that as a winger right? Especially with our winger depth?

 

[Empoleon8771]

That seems to be what people want. A 3C to fill in for Sid or Geno if necessary just isn't available that often and you have to pay a ton.

I don't know why people try to make the 3C a position needing a Duchene, but then hate the idea to try Jake at center. If the 3C position is super vital, which is a valid argument, Jake should have more value as a 3C that as a winger right? Especially with our winger depth?

Guentzel would probably move to center anyway if there was an injury to Crosby or Malkin, that's another reason I don't think the "ability to replace Crosby or Malkin" should be an important criteria in judging 3Cs.

 

[Gurglesons]

That's not very convincing for your argument if he's saying that their cap compliance is totally dependent on some guys being injured instead of healthy.

Eh. They have a lot of players recovering from off season surgery.

Honestly, if they are making a move before the seasons why wouldn't they trade Green or Nyquist who would actually net them value now?

 

[Empoleon8771]

Eh. They have a lot of players recovering from off season surgery.

Honestly, if they are making a move before the seasons why wouldn't they trade Green or Nyquist who would actually net them value now?

Why would they trade either of those guys right now? The team is still deluded into believing they can make the playoffs.

 

[Gurglesons]

Why would they trade either of those guys right now? The team is still deluded into believing they can make the playoffs.

Because they actually will bring something back?

They also can move people down that are waiver eligible.

 

[Giant Yankee Pens]

Why does Detroit need to make a cap move?

Holland has said the only reason they'll make a move is if everyone is healthy after training camp.

They are cap complacent after putting Franzen on IR and not signing AA.

Because they want to sign AA. If they sign him to a 1.9 M deal that they offered him, they would need to make a mmove (unless my math is off). So unless they really want AA to go to the KHL, they would need a trade right? I just don't agree that they would rather have Sheahan instead of AA.