Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building | Everybody's Building Ships and Boats

[Empoleon8771]

Re: the bolded.

One of the glaring issues with the Oilers is, apart from McJesus, they're a painfully slow roster. So the rationale behind Strome for Hagelin would be dealing a mediocre skater for a super fast one, similar to us dealing Perron for, ironically, Hagelin.

The hitch in that plan is part of the reason the Oilers did the Strome for Eberle deal was to cut salary. So adding Hagelin's $4 million for next season, when McDavid and Draisaitl's extensions kick in, might not work for them.

The thing about salary is why I changed it to Sheary for Strome, I don't see why they'd trade Strome for a player like Hagelin when he makes as much as he does and he's as bad as he is.

Strome, even as a disappointment, has produced roughly 30 points the past couple of seasons. That's not much below what Bonino produced in Pittsburgh. Strome, at his best, produced 50 points. I'm not sure he'd be a bandaid anymore than the other 3C options people keep talking about are.

It's actually a little bit higher than that, it's actually 34 points. That's not including the 50 point season, either.

I've seen people say "the Penguins need an impact offensive 3C" and "no more band-aides" in response to bringing in Strome, and I just have to think, do you even know who you're talking about? He's a long term solution that has a history of putting up top-6 numbers, and even in the last couple of years when he has struggled while playing on the wing, he's still putting up good 3C numbers. It's more of a reclamation project than a "band-aide", and even then, he's still a 3rd line center even as a reclamation project. If he gets back to where he was, he'll be a 2nd line center.

 

[Tom Hanks]

While trading Sheary would hurt because he’s a decent scorer. We still would have the issue of being too skilled and “weaker” on the wings especially when Sprong needs minutes. It’s a way to solve 3C longer term and our 4th line issues right now.

Going forward move Hags in the off season and try to get a stronger LW like a JVR or Kane etc.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

The thing about salary is why I changed it to Sheary for Strome, I don't see why they'd trade Strome for a player like Hagelin when he makes as much as he does and he's as bad as he is.




It's actually a little bit higher than that, it's actually 34 points. That's not including the 50 point season, either.

I've seen people say "the Penguins need an impact offensive 3C" and "no more band-aides" in response to bringing in Strome, and I just have to think, do you even know who you're talking about? He's a long term solution that has a history of putting up top-6 numbers, and even in the last couple of years when he has struggled while playing on the wing, he's still putting up good 3C numbers. It's more of a reclamation project than a "band-aide", and even then, he's still a 3rd line center even as a reclamation project. If he gets back to where he was, he'll be a 2nd line center.

Yeah, if folks want to label acquiring Ryan Strome as anything, reclamation would be better than bandaid. It would be essentially like the forward version of acquiring Justin Schultz. A struggling player, but who showed the upside is quite nice a couple of seasons prior.

 

[Shaffer]

Yeah, if folks want to label acquiring Ryan Strome as anything, reclamation would be better than bandaid. It would be essentially like the forward version of acquiring Justin Schultz. A struggling player, but who showed the upside is quite nice a couple of seasons prior.

Not for Sheary though. I’m fine trading for Strome, but along as it’s Hagelin going back. Strome doesn’t do anything for our team right now. Everyone is struggling outside of Phil and Maatta.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Yeah, if folks want to label acquiring Ryan Strome as anything, reclamation would be better than bandaid. It would be essentially like the forward version of acquiring Justin Schultz. A struggling player, but who showed the upside is quite nice a couple of seasons prior.

I don't even think the Schultz comparison works all that great, because Schultz was horrendous before being traded to Pittsburgh. Strome has been alright this year, just not worth trading Eberle for and he's on a team that is struggling.

I think a better comparison would be Perron, to be honest. He was viewed as struggling when the Penguins traded for him in 2015. He had 57 points in 78 games the year before, but he only had 19 points in 38 games before being traded to Pittsburgh in 2015. That's not bad, it's just not as good as where he was in the past. When Perron came in, he did well considering how much the Penguins struggled over that window. 22 points in 43 games isn't lighting the world on fire, but it's not bad.

Not for Sheary though. I’m fine trading for Strome, but along as it’s Hagelin going back. Strome doesn’t do anything for our team right now. Everyone is struggling outside of Phil and Maatta.

Yes, I would rather absolutely fleece the Oilers, but why would they do that? How does Strome not do anything for the team? People complain about not getting enough offense from the 3rd line spot, Strome would provide the offense the Penguins need from the 3C spot. Even when he's struggling, he's still a 35 point player.

 

[Andy99]

And again, what is the point of us trading for a SLOWER roster with Strome? We got slower already from last year with Reaves and Kuhn playing. I don't mind taking a flyer on him for Hags since he puts up no points, but not for Sheary....I just don't see a deal for Hags working out with EDM

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Strome, even as a disappointment, has produced roughly 30 points the past couple of seasons. That's not much below what Bonino produced in Pittsburgh. Strome, at his best, produced 50 points. I'm not sure he'd be a bandaid anymore than the other 3C options people keep talking about are.

He produced roughly 30 points intermittently switching from wing to center, won 41% and 42% of his draws, and doesn't PK. Like...at all.

I don't know what other comparable options you're referring to, but if they're anything like that, I don't want them either. We can't just keep using our assets on dumpster dives.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Because Cole has been terrible? And Sullivan is sending a message?

Or Maybe Cole needed the time for his dental work?

 

[Empoleon8771]

And again, what is the point of us trading for a SLOWER roster with Strome? We got slower already from last year with Reaves and Kuhn playing. I don't mind taking a flyer on him for Hags since he puts up no points, but not for Sheary....I just don't see a deal for Hags working out with EDM

Strome isn't a slow player. He's not a burner, but he's certainly not slow.

He produced roughly 30 points intermittently switching from wing to center, won 41% and 42% of his draws, and doesn't PK. Like...at all.

And I like how you're conveniently not including that he missed 25 games in those 2 years combined. The Penguins don't need him to PK, so that's an irrelevant point.

I don't know what other comparable options you're referring to, but if they're anything like that, I don't want them either. We can't just keep using our assets on dumpster dives.

It's not dumpster diving. I don't even know why I bother responding to you when it comes to centers anymore, your expectations are completely out of wack. A 35 point center per 82 games that put up 50 points 3 years ago isn't dumpster diving.

Seriously, what are your expectations for a 3C? Are you expecting a Matt Duchene or a Jordan Staal for the 3C spot? Strome's production in the last 2 years isn't far below Bonino's in Pittsburgh. He's not Bonino defensively, but they don't need him to be Bonino defensively. At this point, I'm under the impression that some people think that anything less than a 2nd line center playing 3C is "dumpster diving", and if that's the case, it's not even worth discussing with them because it's so out of touch from reality. This isn't even about Sheahan, it's about you calling trading for a 35 point player per 82 games "dumpster diving" for the 3C spot. It's just completely out of touch from reality.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

He produced roughly 30 points intermittently switching from wing to center, won 41% and 42% of his draws, and doesn't PK. Like...at all.

I don't know what other comparable options you're referring to, but if they're anything like that, I don't want them either. We can't just keep using our assets on dumpster dives.

I'm talking in terms of offense from that 3C spot, which seems to be what people are bitching about since Sheahan's done perfectly fine defensively and on face offs.

Strome, offensively, is no more of a bandaid solution than names like Eakin, Lindberg, and whoever else people are gung-ho about JR acquiring to fill the 3C role.

As for "using our assets on dumpster dives", my Strome acquisition involves moving out Hagelin. At this point, his play combined with his cap hit, he's not really an asset as more as a bit of dead weight who I'd gladly swap for someone with Strome's offensive upside.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

And I like how you're conveniently not including that he missed 25 games in those 2 years combined. The Penguins don't need him to PK, so that's an irrelevant point.

He averaged 34 points per 82 games. That doesn't change anything.

Of course PKing/faceoffs are relevant. He's a 3C, and the poster I was responding to had compared him to Bonino, who won 48% and 50% of his draws, was a horse on the PK, and averaged 37 points per 82 games.

So ya know, Bones was a little better at one thing and a lot better at everything else. And I wanted us to move on from him so we could upgrade there.

Seriously, what are your expectations for a 3C? Are you expecting a Matt Duchene or a Jordan Staal for the 3C spot? Strome's production in the last 2 years isn't far below Bonino's in Pittsburgh. He's not Bonino defensively, but they don't need him to be Bonino defensively.

I expect that if we're going to get an offense-only 3C who can't PK or win faceoffs, he'd better put up a hell of a lot more offense than Strome does to justify it.

 

[Gurglesons]

Or Maybe Cole needed the time for his dental work?

Think about it this way, Letang was on the ice for seven goals against the last few games and was on for seven goals for. That evens out.

Cole was on for I think six goals against before last game. No goals for. He also took multiple undiscplined penalties.

I know people love their role players in Pittsburgh, but Cole is an uneven #5. He is exactly the type of player Sully can afford to scratch.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I'm talking in terms of offense from that 3C spot, which seems to be what people are *****ing about since Sheahan's done perfectly fine defensively and on face offs.

Strome, offensively, is no more of a bandaid solution than names like Eakin, Lindberg, and whoever else people are gung-ho about JR acquiring to fill the 3C role.

As for "using our assets on dumpster dives", my Strome acquisition involves moving out Hagelin. At this point, his play combined with his cap hit, he's not really an asset as more as a bit of dead weight who I'd gladly swap for someone with Strome's offensive upside.

What we gain in offense we lose in defense and speed. It's just re-arranging deck chairs.

Do you honestly think a 30 point center who can't PK or win faceoffs is a legitimate 3C on a team with Cup aspirations? You make this deal and we're just diluting our identity and looking more like a team with a great core and a lot of misfit toys - and that's without even taking into consideration what else we'd have to add, which would probably be significant.

 

[Empoleon8771]

He averaged 34 points per 82 games. That doesn't change anything.

Yes it does, because that production is clearly 3C caliber.

Of course PKing/faceoffs are relevant.

No it's not, especially not in this case where the Penguins are also bringing in Letestu, who would be killing penalties. The 3C doesn't need to be killing penalties, especially when the Penguins would have 2 other centers that can kill penalties on the 4th line.

He's a 3C, and the poster I was responding to had compared him to Bonino, who won 48% and 50% of his draws, was a horse on the PK, and averaged 37 points per 82 games.

Do you just complain about the 3rd line center? Because it seems like you do. First, Sheahan sucks as the 3C because he can't put up good numbers, despite being excellent defensively and PKing. Now, Strome would suck as the 3C because he doesn't kill penalties (when we don't need him to kill penalties) and because he's poor on faceoffs? I guess Malkin must suck as a 2C then, since he doesn't kill penalties and sucks at faceoffs too.

So ya know, Bones was a little better at one thing and a lot better at everything else. And I wanted us to move on from him so we could upgrade there.

Okay, so you wanted a 2nd line center as the 3C then. So your expectations were completely unrealistic.

I expect that if we're going to get an offense-only 3C who can't PK or win faceoffs, he'd better put up a hell of a lot more offense than Strome does to justify it.

You really shouldn't comment on players that you clearly aren't informed about. Strome isn't an "offensive-only 3C". He just doesn't kill penalties. Spooner is an offense only 3rd line center, Strome isn't. Over his career, Strome has had about an equal split of offensive zone starts to defensive zone starts. Strome is completely fine defensively, he's not a guy you need to shelter. He wouldn't be able to handle Sheahan's defensive minutes, but you don't need to shelter him at all.

I'm not going to have productive discussion with you when it comes to the 3C because you're not posting realistically at all when it comes to the 3C, so I'm not going to discuss this any further. You're completely unrealistic when it comes to the 3C and then complaining when your unrealistic expectations aren't met. There was 1 player the Penguins could have added that satisfied your expectations: Matt Duchene. That's it. There is not a single other player who could even remotely become available that satisfies your requirements. Even my dream scenario for the 3C in Haula, who is fantastic defensively, produces good numbers, is a great skater and kills penalties, wouldn't be good enough for you.

 

[Gurglesons]

I feel like the 3C debate is at Trump / Hilary levels on this board.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I feel like the 3C debate is at Trump / Hilary levels on this board.

That's kinda why I'm checking out with the 3C discussion with some people. It's like being a Hillary supporter and talking to a Trump supporter about why they're wrong about being a Trump supporter or vice-versa, you're just not going to convince them and it's a waste of time trying.

 

[Gurglesons]

That's kinda why I'm checking out with the 3C discussion with some people. It's like being a Hillary supporter and talking to a Trump supporter about why they're wrong about being a Trump supporter or vice-versa, you're just not going to convince them and it's a waste of time trying.

I also think our only solution in season is going to be a Strome like player. Someone that is a middle of the pack 3C who with Sheahan can contribute positively. Kind of like a lesser version of what we saw in 15-16 with Bones and Cullen. We should be able to make up for it with Jake being added to our roster though.

Strome, Tierney, etc.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

What we gain in offense we lose in defense and speed. It's just re-arranging deck chairs.

Do you honestly think a 30 point center who can't PK or win faceoffs is a legitimate 3C on a team with Cup aspirations?

I don't think Strome will only be a 30 point center in Pittsburgh, because I think we have better wingers to play him with than he's had elsewhere.

Strome has been, apart from last season, a positive possession player. Even this year, for a crappy Oilers team, he's at 53.5 CF% and FF%.

When he's played primarily at center, he's been closer to a 47% face off guy. Not great, I know, but not nearly as bad as you're making him out to be when he's actually getting regular shifts at center.

Hell, he even got some Selke votes in his 50-point season (38th in Selke voting). So he's clearly not just a one-dimensional player.

I don't know why you think Bonino's so superior to Strome defensively anyway. Prior to coming to the Pens, Bonino never once got Selke votes, and his face off percentages were in the 46-48% range, which is about where Strome is when he's played regular at center.

I mean, other than landing a guy like Duchene or re-acquiring Jordan Staal, guys like Strome are what you need to expect from that 3C spot.

 

[mpp9]

If Sheahan was more consistent offensively, I wouldn’t mind going after someone like Strome.

Neither guy is someone I trust in a 3C position. So we’d be going from having two 3Cs to potentially two 4Cs.

Tampa has Stamkos, Johnson and Point. Nashville has Johansen, Turris and Bonino with a shitload of quality centers behind that.

Our greatest position of strength historically is no longer one.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Yes it does, because that production is clearly 3C caliber.

But 30 points isn't?

No it's not, especially not in this case where the Penguins are also bringing in Letestu, who would be killing penalties. The 3C doesn't need to be killing penalties, especially when the Penguins would have 2 other centers that can kill penalties on the 4th line.

Ah yes, Letestu, the plodding center who you want to trade for so we can put him on the wing at ES.

Do you just complain about the 3rd line center? Because it seems like you do. First, Sheahan sucks as the 3C because he can't put up good numbers, despite being excellent defensively and PKing. Now, Strome would suck as the 3C because he doesn't kill penalties (when we don't need him to kill penalties) and because he's poor on faceoffs? I guess Malkin must suck as a 2C then, since he doesn't kill penalties and sucks at faceoffs too.

I wonder if you can piece it all together. Like, a 3C should either be able to play a 2-way game or be good enough offensively to make it another scoring line with Kessel.

Can't score more than around 20-25 points? Not a good 3C for us.
Can't PK or win faceoffs and averages 34 points per 82 games? Also not a good 3C for us.

Okay, so you wanted a 2nd line center as the 3C then. So your expectations were completely unrealistic.

Or I just want someone as good or better than we had last year and could have re-signed over the summer.

You really shouldn't comment on players that you clearly aren't informed about. Strome isn't an "offensive-only 3C". He just doesn't kill penalties. Spooner is an offense only 3rd line center, Strome isn't. Over his career, Strome has had about an equal split of offensive zone starts to defensive zone starts. Strome is completely fine defensively, he's not a guy you need to shelter. He wouldn't be able to handle Sheahan's defensive minutes, but you don't need to shelter him at all.

Yeah I'm sure Sully's salivating at the prospect of a 3C who wins a hair above 40% of his faceoffs taking defensive zone draws, and is so capable in his own end that he's averaged 1 second per game on the PK the last couple years. Won't ever have to shelter that guy.

 

[Tom Hanks]

I feel like the 3C debate is at Trump / Hilary levels on this board.

I burst out laughing at this.

Emps proposal seemed fair for both teams and suited our needs. I also understand if people want to keep Sheary and look at other trades.

 

[Gurglesons]

One thing I’ll bring up is this association with face offs as a sign of something we need.

First off, the stat is horribly structured and honestly, the best face off teams in the league the past couple of years have been some of the worst.

 

[Empoleon8771]

If Sheahan was more consistent offensively, I wouldn’t mind going after someone like Strome.

If Sheahan was more consistent offensively, he'd be a legit 3C though. The only thing keeping him from being a good 3C so far in Pittsburgh is that he needs to score more goals, he's a 3C everywhere else than that.

If you want an offensive 3rd line center who's not bad defensively, Strome is the kind of guy you look at. At worst, you get good 3rd line numbers from him in the 3C spot with alright defense. At best, he gets back to where he was in the past while playing center again and you have a 2C in the 3C spot.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I don't think Strome will only be a 30 point center in Pittsburgh, because I think we have better wingers to play him with than he's had elsewhere.

Strome has been, apart from last season, a positive possession player. Even this year, for a crappy Oilers team, he's at 53.5 CF% and FF%.

When he's played primarily at center, he's been closer to a 47% face off guy. Not great, I know, but not nearly as bad as you're making him out to be when he's actually getting regular shifts at center.

Hell, he even got some Selke votes in his 50-point season (38th in Selke voting). So he's clearly not just a one-dimensional player.

I don't know why you think Bonino's so superior to Strome defensively anyway. Prior to coming to the Pens, Bonino never once got Selke votes, and his face off percentages were in the 46-48% range, which is about where Strome is when he's played regular at center.

I mean, other than landing a guy like Duchene or re-acquiring Jordan Staal, guys like Strome are what you need to expect from that 3C spot.

You're better than using nepotistic Selke votes in this discussion, Sidney. Eric Fehr had the same single 4th place vote that year for God's sake, and I'm more than confident Bones is a better defensive player than him too.

Bones is my standard for whatever 3C we land. If the guy we get is as good or better, I'll be happy. If not, then we made a mistake in not re-signing him.

 

[mpp9]

If Sheahan was more consistent offensively, he'd be a legit 3C though. The only thing keeping him from being a good 3C so far in Pittsburgh is that he needs to score more goals, he's a 3C everywhere else than that.

If you want an offensive 3rd line center who's not bad defensively, Strome is the kind of guy you look at. At worst, you get good 3rd line numbers from him in the 3C spot with alright defense. At best, he gets back to where he was in the past while playing center again and you have a 2C in the 3C spot.

Im saying to replace what we’ve had in the past, we need more than a mediocre 3C offensively and a guy who can’t score. That’s well behind Bones and Cullen. And other teams have gotten better.