Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building: Does it even Maatta? The defense is still absolute Jack.

[CrosbyMalkin]

Scratch JJ or limit him to 13 minutes a night and I think you can win the cup. If you didn't have Gudbranson, I'd be more confident in saying you could win with JJ. You just have to basically use him like Chicago in 2015 used their bottom pair D. Having JJ as a #6 who plays 10 minutes a night at ES and 3 minutes a night on the PK isn't going to kill you like losing a 1st for nothing would.

You do realize that Gudbranson was the only Pens player that was not a minus player in those 4 playoff games right? Also was nothing but fantastic in his 19 games with us after the trade as a plus 7 and looked really good to me. Gudbranson was a much better skater and transition player than I could of ever hoped for after hearing all the negative press. All the people that act like Pettersson carried him is nonsense. I keyed on Gudbranson specifically in his games with the Pens and he played very solid. I don’t care what he did with Vancouver in that system. I think Gudbranson was a good pick up and makes our team better not worse.

I think we are one good 2nd pairing LD away from having a top 10 defense. Dumoulin-Letang is one of the best top pairings in the NHL and I think Pettersson-Gudbranson is a top 10 3rd pairing. Schultz is a good 2nd pairing offensive defenseman so all we need to trade for either this summer or before the deadline is a veteran LD which I think will happen. JJ can fill the spot if needed until we can upgrade. Even if we do a rental bandaid like we did with Hainsey that worked for a Cup.

 

[ColePens]

Another encouraging quote from JR was the one from the prior thread about not spending assets/picks for 30 year olds. I am in full agreement with that.

 

[CrosbyMalkin]

By the end of the season, Johnson's ice time fell off a cliff. Once it became blatantly apparent that Johnson-Schultz wasn't working, Sullivan gradually decreased his ice time and gave more minutes to Pettersson-Gudbranson, which was dominant when together. I really don't see a reason to think that they're going to reverse that trend with Pettersson only improving.

I think a completely reasonable suggestion is that the Penguins run with Pettersson-Gudbranson as their 2nd pair and Johnson-Schultz as their 3rd pair, but keep Schultz's ice time near his normal levels by double shifting Pettersson or Dumoulin with him sometimes. You're going to see Johnson at only 15 or 16 minutes a night (similar to what guys like Coburn were getting) and you'll have 5 D with top-4 minutes. It's kinda the same thing they do when Ruhwedel is in the lineup.

I see we are on the same page. I agree with all of this.

 

[Empoleon8771]

You do realize that Gudbranson was the only Pens player that was not a minus player in those 4 playoff games right? Also was nothing but fantastic in his 19 games with us after the trade as a plus 7 and looked really good to me. Gudbranson was a much better skater and transition player than I could of ever hoped for after hearing all the negative press. All the people that act like Pettersson carried him is nonsense. I keyed on Gudbranson specifically in his games with the Pens and he played very solid. I don’t care what he did with Vancouver in that system. I think Gudbranson was a good pick up and makes our team better not worse.

I think we are one good 2nd pairing LD away from having a top 10 defense. Dumoulin-Letang is one of the best top pairings in the NHL and I think Pettersson-Gudbranson is a top 10 3rd pairing. Schultz is a good 2nd pairing offensive defenseman so all we need to trade for either this summer or before the deadline is a veteran LD which I think will happen. JJ can fill the spot if needed until we can upgrade. Even if we do a rental bandaid like we did with Hainsey that worked for a Cup.

You missed the point of what I was saying with that. Sheltering Johnson requires Johnson to be on the 3rd pair or be getting #6 ice time, that probably requires Johnson-Gudbranson to be put together. Now, there are creative solutions to get around that (like double shifting Dumoulin or Pettersson with Schultz and limiting how often Johnson-Schultz is deployed), but the easiest solution is to just run with Pettersson-Schultz. I wasn't criticizing Gudbranson there at all.

Edit: reading your next reply shows we're on the same page with this.

 

[Malkinstheman]

By the end of the season, Johnson's ice time fell off a cliff. Once it became blatantly apparent that Johnson-Schultz wasn't working, Sullivan gradually decreased his ice time and gave more minutes to Pettersson-Gudbranson, which was dominant when together. I really don't see a reason to think that they're going to reverse that trend with Pettersson only improving.

I think a completely reasonable suggestion is that the Penguins run with Pettersson-Gudbranson as their 2nd pair and Johnson-Schultz as their 3rd pair, but keep Schultz's ice time near his normal levels by double shifting Pettersson or Dumoulin with him sometimes. You're going to see Johnson at only 15 or 16 minutes a night (similar to what guys like Coburn were getting) and you'll have 5 D with top-4 minutes. It's kinda the same thing they do when Ruhwedel is in the lineup.

Guerin mentioned that they think Riikola will make a 'bigger' impact this season. I'd imagine him and JJ rotate in and out of the line-up.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

If Buffalo offers you Eichel (say, they want to get cheaper because of Skinner and view their window as 3-4 years from now) - you take it and run. People argue that Hughes is the 'next coming' and it takes a massive overpayment for him. Give me a proven talent 9/10 times versus a 'maybe'.

What if Toronto offers you Marner for the same reason? These are guys who are all-stars but not generational.

I mean I agree with this.

Hfboards posters (Devs fans) are just super excited about Hughes. Any GM offering 90-100 point superstars in their early 20s for a mystery box should be fired. Shero would likely take those offers.

Side note: But at the same time there’s good reason to be excited if you’re a Devils fan. Hughes will go 1OA because he has the best chance of being a superstar center in the draft. I will say that I haven’t been more impressed by an American prospect (besides Eichel who was downright batshit insane in his draft year) than by this kid. I expect him to be awesome.

 

[molon labe]

JJ needs to be moved & was incredibly stupid to sign him to a 5-year deal.

It would have been less vomit inducing if it was a 2-3 year deal at most.

Moving a guy like Rust is incredibly stupid, we need more guys like rust not moving them off the team because... TRADES!!1!!

If you want to clear spots & money there are about 4-6 other players that should be shot to the moon rather than moving a very versatile player like rust.

If you want to know who those players are; look at my previous posts, I usually mention them a lot. There are way more vanilla trash players to be expelled over a guy like Rust.

What version of Rust are you defending here? Certainly not 2018 or 2019..

We DO have more guys like Rust - potentially better ones. McCann and Kahuna are here. They cost 1.25M and 925K respectively - Rust costs almost double what they do (combined).

Moving a guy like Rust, who should hold really solid value league-wide is exactly what separates longevity from eventual mediocrity. He really under-performed after his raise, and now that we have other youthful guys (just like he, Sheary, and Guentzel once were) who are here BEFORE raises, you flip him for value. Believe me, I love what Rust has done. I'll NEVER forget his two goals against Tampa in Game 7 - but it's probably time.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Guerin mentioned that they think Riikola will make a 'bigger' impact this season. I'd imagine him and JJ rotate in and out of the line-up.

This definitely is another possibility. I think the important thing to note is that the Penguins top-5 D clearly does not include Johnson and that trend is only going to continue. Johnson is their #6 defenseman, he may play with Schultz normally, but he'll be getting #6 ice time when everyone is healthy. That is assuming he stays, of course.

 

[Peat]

Totally disagree! Way too many people base this Penguins team off 4 games.

This is not happening. It's based on two years.

I know both of us love Rusty and every thing he has done, but Rust on the Jets is a nice fit. Ehlers on the Pens is a nice fit. That's just one of those win/win type scenarios.

I'm just thinking in terms of the idea for how the players would play on one another's team.

It would be win/win if they we wouldn't need to add more to be their best bid and if we wouldn't have real problems finding space for Ehlers' cap hit

Never said anything about Kakko other than including him in the comment about getting hyped. That said - for a top pick I wouldn't stack him in either the top echelon (Sid, Ovi, McDavid) or the group right below (Matthews/Eichel). This is a draft year below those two - and even those top two classes require help in other areas on your roster. I'd have to seriously consider Kakko over Hughes to an extent - but I'm no scout.

It sounds like talking in absolutes but I rather mean to speak in a logic-based sense. Hughes may end up lighting the world on fire, but usually when you have a guy like that you begin hearing about them at a younger age - and they become unanimous picks. Of course the inverse can happen - anything can happen. Hughes has shifted for his draft year in what seems like every other month. I don't remember such waffling in generational draft years - nor even that tier below.

And because you don't think Miller is worth his contract he's "soo overrated" - how's that reasonable? Mentioning a guy a lot does not make them overrated.

Missed this when I posted -

Hughes went wire to wire as the 1OA on nearly every list, despite Kakko having an amazing season. He was in the top 50 of Hockey News' prospects under 21 when he was 16. There were quite a few people who said that if Hughes had been available last season, he'd have gone 1OA ahead of Dahlin. I don't know how you missed this, but Hughes is exactly what you were talking about in terms of being projected for greatness from far, far out.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Another encouraging quote from JR was the one from the prior thread about not spending assets/picks for 30 year olds. I am in full agreement with that.

We don't have much of a choice. I think JR understands this. Unlike popular opinion on this board, JR is a good GM. You do not win three championships with two different (and I mean COMPLETELY different) organizations if you are not good at what you do.

Our prospects cupboard is pretty much bare. The average age on the team is not terrible, especially when you subtract 42-year-old Matt Cullen (lol), but the core is getting older and that is the scary thing. Almost every trade or move JR has made recently has gotten us a little younger than before. So, there are encouraging signs here.

Now that the Malkin-Kessel garbage has died down, I am a lot more positive about our outlook moving forward.

 

[molon labe]

I mean I agree with this.

Hfboards posters (Devs fans) are just super excited about Hughes. Any GM offering 90-100 point superstars in their early 20s for a mystery box should be fired. Shero would likely take those offers.

Side note: But at the same time there’s good reason to be excited if you’re a Devils fan. Hughes will go 1OA because he has the best chance of being a superstar center in the draft. I will say that I haven’t been more impressed by an American prospect (besides Eichel who was downright bat**** insane in his draft year) than by this kid. I expect him to be awesome.

Those are true hypothetical but also very realistic. You have a guy who will likely be a 55 point guy right away (I argue that he doesn't go much higher but who knows - you seem to put him in the light) - do those 55 points for ELC money not make you a better team than a 100 point guy at 11.5M? Or 10M? That's why someone may consider it, especially if they have redundancy in their roster (Toronto).

But what about a team that may have a pick in the 5-10 region. What if they offer you a #2 D man + 5th-10th pick..or even another + on top of that? I think when you hit the top-3 pick range you should consider every option and not get disillusioned like so many seem to do. Where I recant that stance is in generational years - nothing should interest you more than a guy like Sid/Ovi/McDavid - who will keep your franchise in the light, better TV deals, jersey sales, trophy cases, etc etc.

 

[CrosbyMalkin]

You missed the point of what I was saying with that. Sheltering Johnson requires Johnson to be on the 3rd pair or be getting #6 ice time, that probably requires Johnson-Gudbranson to be put together. Now, there are creative solutions to get around that (like double shifting Dumoulin or Pettersson with Schultz and limiting how often Johnson-Schultz is deployed), but the easiest solution is to just run with Pettersson-Schultz. I wasn't criticizing Gudbranson there at all.

Edit: reading your next reply shows we're on the same page with this.

I read your post after I wrote that. I agree totally with your assessment.

 

[Malkinstheman]

 

[Shrimper]

Feels odd to have a 1st and not be trading it

 

[Riptide]

You do realize that Gudbranson was the only Pens player that was not a minus player in those 4 playoff games right? Also was nothing but fantastic in his 19 games with us after the trade as a plus 7 and looked really good to me. Gudbranson was a much better skater and transition player than I could of ever hoped for after hearing all the negative press. All the people that act like Pettersson carried him is nonsense. I keyed on Gudbranson specifically in his games with the Pens and he played very solid. I don’t care what he did with Vancouver in that system. I think Gudbranson was a good pick up and makes our team better not worse.

While I agree with you about Gudbranson I'm hesitant about him. And I think we also need to be careful with who we give him for a partner. I mean I think JJ/EG would be an absolute disaster. I'm not even sure about Riikola with him.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

For me, yes. Because Ehlers is quite a bit younger (same difference between he and Zucker as Zucker and Kessel) and more productive at ES over that span in 16 fewer games.

Ehlers is also coming off a more productive season at ES, with 30 ES points in 62 games opposed to Zucker's 28 in 81.

He's a good enough version of what I'd want at ES - with room still to grow and a longer deal signed through his absolute prime - that he would be a suitable replacement for Kessel where Zucker wouldn't hit the mark.

Sure, if given the option, I'd take Ehlers too, but people have been making Zucker out to be some kind of talentless grinder but the fact is he'd be a really, really good pickup.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Believe it or not, the Penguins are the only team in the league who have never bought anyone out. . (Not counting Vegas). I guess we really havent had any putrid contract during the Sid era (until now). Scuderi stands out but we were able to get rid of it.

This should be obvious to any Pens fan, but if this team is going to make another run or two, JR absolutely has to stop shitting the bed in FA.

I almost don’t want them to have any cap space for UFA, as much as I enjoy that time of year. However, I feel there are some guys he can add in FA that can really help... but he never seems to make the right choices in FA... so it’s a catch 22 for me.

 

[Riptide]

You missed the point of what I was saying with that. Sheltering Johnson requires Johnson to be on the 3rd pair or be getting #6 ice time, that probably requires Johnson-Gudbranson to be put together. Now, there are creative solutions to get around that (like double shifting Dumoulin or Pettersson with Schultz and limiting how often Johnson-Schultz is deployed), but the easiest solution is to just run with Pettersson-Schultz. I wasn't criticizing Gudbranson there at all.

Edit: reading your next reply shows we're on the same page with this.

That's not how it played out in the POs. Out of his 39 ES minutes, 35 were with Schultz. Schultz averaged 20 minutes a game and JJ was averaging 15 minutes a game.

 

[Malkinstheman]

Dreger mentioned that Trouba's list might have only been 1 or 2 teams.

 

[CrosbyMalkin]

This definitely is another possibility. I think the important thing to note is that the Penguins top-5 D clearly does not include Johnson and that trend is only going to continue. Johnson is their #6 defenseman, he may play with Schultz normally, but he'll be getting #6 ice time when everyone is healthy. That is assuming he stays, of course.

That was proven when Johnson and Maatta had been the ones getting benched for the playoffs. First game was JJ and then Maatta played poorly so they put in JJ. No doubt he is the 6th defenseman now and I agree Riikola has a
Legit shot to take that spot. Will see how he uses his rookie experience from last year and learns from it. I am sure he is busting his butt this offseason to get in the lineup. I can live with that for the first half of the season and see how that develops. Like I posted a few posts ago at worse we trade for a veteran rental like we did with Hainsey. We can only hope it works out that well again.

 

[Empoleon8771]

That's not how it played out in the POs. Out of his 39 ES minutes, 35 were with Schultz. Schultz averaged 20 minutes a game and JJ was averaging 15 minutes a game.

Literally the next sentence:

"Now, there are creative solutions to get around that (like double shifting Dumoulin or Pettersson with Schultz and limiting how often Johnson-Schultz is deployed)"

Also this post:

I think a completely reasonable suggestion is that the Penguins run with Pettersson-Gudbranson as their 2nd pair and Johnson-Schultz as their 3rd pair, but keep Schultz's ice time near his normal levels by double shifting Pettersson or Dumoulin with him sometimes. You're going to see Johnson at only 15 or 16 minutes a night (similar to what guys like Coburn were getting) and you'll have 5 D with top-4 minutes. It's kinda the same thing they do when Ruhwedel is in the lineup.

 

[iFishyHD]

Feels odd to have a 1st and not be trading it

Feel like I have heard that before.

 

[TimmyD]

Rust+Addison+1st for Ehlers?

 

[Riptide]

Literally the next sentence:

"Now, there are creative solutions to get around that (like double shifting Dumoulin or Pettersson with Schultz and limiting how often Johnson-Schultz is deployed)"

Also this post:

In which case "sheltering Johnson" doesn't require him playing with Gudbranson.

 

[Peat]

This should be obvious to any Pens fan, but if this team is going to make another run or two, JR absolutely has to stop ****ting the bed in FA.

I almost don’t want them to have any cap space for UFA, as much as I enjoy that time of year. However, I feel there are some guys he can add in FA that can really help... but he never seems to make the right choices in FA... so it’s a catch 22 for me.

Given the way he's been trying to prevent himself from having cap space in the summer by trading expiring free agents for guys with term, it's almost like he recognises he constantly craps the bed there and is removing temptation from his path.

Rust+Addison+1st for Ehlers?

I like it, but

a) Where am I getting the extra cap space for Ehlers?
b) How am I fixing the defence if I've spaffed all our futures and cap space on Ehlers?