Salary Cap: Salary Cap + Roster Building | Cap Details + Links in First Post | Phillin' Fine

[Riptide]

The scenario below would be:

• Kessel for ELC middle-six winger + 1st round pick
  
• JJ + 3rd rounder for anything
  
• Maatta for a 2nd
• Gardiner signed for 6/$45M
• Pettersson for 2/$4.5M

Do you think that's realistic? Even ignoring Rutherford and whether he'd do it, do you think it's realistic that you could move JJ, Maatta and Kessel and only bring back 1 player on an ELC in terms of salary? Because that seems incredibly optimistic.

 

[Peat]

Do you think that's realistic? Even ignoring Rutherford and whether he'd do it, do you think it's realistic that you could move JJ, Maatta and Kessel and only bring back 1 player on an ELC in terms of salary? Because that seems incredibly optimistic.

*hand-wavey motion*

While dubious about applicability of moving that many players without taking ought back at short notice, those aren't great value trade prices for us and maybe it'd be possible as a consequence. Not to mention you could afford to take back salary there if needed.

 

[Andy99]

*hand-wavey motion*

While dubious about applicability of moving that many players without taking ought back at short notice, those aren't great value trade prices for us and maybe it'd be possible as a consequence. Not to mention you could afford to take back salary there if needed.

Agree...terrible value...and it's doable because of that...but we're a worse team with that trade unless we're signing a significant top 6 forward in FA...

 

[ChaosAgent]

Do you think that's realistic? Even ignoring Rutherford and whether he'd do it, do you think it's realistic that you could move JJ, Maatta and Kessel and only bring back 1 player on an ELC in terms of salary? Because that seems incredibly optimistic.

I suppose there's room in there to take back about $4M in salary.

From what I can gather now we're at about $-2M in cap space to bring back RFAs. I'll ignore Petterson in my above example since the RFAs is inclusive of him.

So +Gardiner at $7.5M but minus Kessel, Maatta, and Johnson (-$14M) leaves us with $4.5M left over. So in this scenario we'd be able to take back $4.5M worth of players. That's that's a lot more than an ELC.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Agree...terrible value...and it's doable because of that...but we're a worse team with that trade unless we're signing a significant top 6 forward in FA...

Hey, if you'd rather them do that instead of a Gardiner - the money would be there to do that as well. I'm just illustrating that if we expand what we're looking for in terms of being offensively-minded to Dmen, then that decreases the chances of striking out.

I also think if anyone is expecting to get a lot more than that for Phil, JJ or Maatta signed to market value contracts when they have already peaked in terms of upside...I don't know, man. What do you think they are worth for another team? You think Olli at 3 yrs/$4.1M per year is worth a 1st for someone when we're hoping he doesn't even replace Pettersson when he comes back?

Beyond just Kessel I think we need more turnover on the team this offseason. Especially if we crash out early. You have to target average players making decent money for it to happen.

Edit: I believe Malkin would be just as effective between Rust + a skilled-ish grinder like Simon/ZAR/Teddy/Hornqvist as he would with Rust + skilled-scoring-winger-with-pedigree. So I'm not trying to replace Kessel like-for-like unless a home run comes available.

 

[Peat]

Agree...terrible value...and it's doable because of that...but we're a worse team with that trade unless we're signing a significant top 6 forward in FA...

You wouldn't in that scenario because you're spending the money on a significant PMD instead. And I have a lot of love for that idea tbh. This team has been so reliant on it and if we want to keep attacking in this grinding, cycling way, having dmen that use the puck when it comes back to the points is going to be huge.

But I don't love Gardiner at 7.5m

I think there's a version of this idea where its easier to make the trades and you end up stronger where you trade Kessel for the PMD, Maatta for a good cheap forward, and Johnson for the space. And I think that could be a real winner.

Shame that its probably never going to happen...

 

[Pancakes]

If we were going to move Kessel for mostly futures, I'd consider targeting Tolvanen from Nashville. He's 19 and has been playing in the AHL so might be ready soon to step in. Nashville seems like the type of team that might consider Kessel as well to try and put them over the top.

That said Nashville likes Tolvanen a lot so dunno if they'd even consider doing that.

 

[ChaosAgent]

But I don't love Gardiner at 7.5m

I was just trying to be realistic on what he'd get on 7/1, using the Carlson and Niskanen deals + some inflation as my anchoring point.

You're right that if we get a top-4 PMD back as the main chip for Kessel, then that may be better value.

 

[Andy99]

Hey, if you'd rather them do that instead of a Gardiner - the money would be there to do that as well. I'm just illustrating that if we expand what we're looking for in terms of being offensively-minded to Dmen, then that decreases the chances of striking out.

I also think if anyone is expecting to get a lot more than that for Phil, JJ or Maatta signed to market value contracts when they have already peaked in terms of upside...I don't know, man. What do you think they are worth for another team? You think Olli at 3 yrs/$4.1M per year is worth a 1st for someone when we're hoping he doesn't even replace Pettersson when he comes back?

Beyond just Kessel I think we need more turnover on the team this offseason. Especially if we crash out early. You have to target average players making decent money for it to happen.

Edit: I believe Malkin would be just as effective between Rust + a skilled-ish grinder like Simon/ZAR/Teddy/Hornqvist as he would with Rust + skilled-scoring-winger-with-pedigree. So I'm not trying to replace Kessel like-for-like unless a home run comes available.

I agree with you that if we're moving out bottom four D men, we're at best going to get draft picks back because 1) people know we'll need the cap space; and 2) we need the cap space....you would hope Phil could bring back more than a third line winger but again, if we're asking for prospects and picks because of the cap space, we're not getting a high level player back...

I know how people think we'd like to play or are going to be playing, but still, Sid and G aren't good enough as they get older to make due with the Rust and McCanns of the world for us to be contenders...because that's what we're talking about, not just fielding a "good" team....we need the kind of skill on at least L2 that Jake brings to L1...Phil is not doing it right now and we need a better replacement...we're not going anywhere near the SCF without it...we at least have a PMD on the top two D pairs...imo Gardiner is less of a need if we re-sign Schultz than Panarin, Skinner etc...

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Pittsburgh did moderately well drafting over the Crosby era, but not nearly as well as Washington. Washington wasted a lot of that talent though with only one cup to show for it.

 

[Peat]

Pittsburgh did moderately well drafting over the Crosby era, but not nearly as well as Washington. Washington wasted a lot of that talent though with only one cup to show for it.

I feel like once you understand the colour coding, most of our fans could pick us out in one or two gos - not exactly surprising we're shown as getting a lot of value from the 3rd round...

 

[Andy99]

Another comment on Hornqvist and why he should be playing in the top 6....

HockeyBuzz.com - Ryan Wilson - The Patric Hornqvist problem

 

[Peat]

Another comment on Hornqvist and why he should be playing in the top 6....

HockeyBuzz.com - Ryan Wilson - The Patric Hornqvist problem

Good lords, he's not completely wrong for once

As long as Sid's time with 81 and 72 is limited, the case for moving one or t'other is only going to get stronger, unless we can drastically re-organise the 3rd line to make it pimptastic.

 

[StaalForOne]

Pittsburgh did moderately well drafting over the Crosby era, but not nearly as well as Washington. Washington wasted a lot of that talent though with only one cup to show for it.

Don't sell Washington short. They have one cup and one Martin Erat to show for it.

 

[ownal]

Nashville is 30th on the power play at 13%. Trading Phil there would make sense. Nashville would be as good as Tampa if they had even a 20% power play %. I'd like a Top 4 D and a middle 6 winger though.

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

I still think Tolvanen would be a good acquisition.

 

[mpp9]

Nashville is 30th on the power play at 13%. Trading Phil there would make sense. Nashville would be as good as Tampa if they had even a 20% power play %. I'd like a Top 4 D and a middle 6 winger though.

It's been painfully obvious for awhile now that they need another high end offensive forward. Ideally a center because Turris doesn't look up to the job as 2C, but a high end winger works as well.

They're a very good team, but they're not winning 4 rounds without a legit difference maker playing on a line separate from Forsberg/RyJo.

 

[Empoleon8771]

With how Gudbranson has played, there is no way that JR is going to touch the defense this off-season outside of moving Maatta out. It's going to be disappointing to see him leave and I actually think that one will hit the locker room hard (he's one of the longest tenured player on the Penguins at this point and is apparently big in the lockerroom), but it's painfully obvious that they're planning on going with JJ-Schultz and Pettersson-Gudbranson going forward.

You'll probably see Maatta traded for mostly futures (my guess is Maatta to Montreal for a 2nd and Brook, something like that), and you may see Kessel traded for a replacement top-9 forward and futures. I think that's about all you'll see them do this off-season.

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

It's been painfully obvious for awhile now that they need another high end offensive forward. Ideally a center because Turris doesn't look up to the job as 2C, but a high end winger works as well.

They really should be using Granlund as their 2C, but for some reason they aren't.

 

[mpp9]

With how Gudbranson has played, there is no way that JR is going to touch the defense this off-season outside of moving Maatta out. It's going to be disappointing to see him leave and I actually think that one will hit the locker room hard (he's one of the longest tenured player on the Penguins at this point and is apparently big in the lockerroom), but it's painfully obvious that they're planning on going with JJ-Schultz and Pettersson-Gudbranson going forward.

You'll probably see Maatta traded for mostly futures (my guess is Maatta to Montreal for a 2nd and Brook, something like that), and you may see Kessel traded for a replacement top-9 forward and futures. I think that's about all you'll see them do this off-season.

I'm gonna be pissed if they don't make use of this free agency class to address adding another offensive D-man or Malkin winger. It's not often so many good players are available.

As good as Gudbranson has been, it now makes adding a Gardiner or Krug more difficult because there's no way they're trading two of JJ, Maatta and Pettersson.

Hopefully they at least look into class of wingers this summer.

 

[NMK11]

I'm gonna be pissed if they don't make use of this free agency class to address adding another offensive D-man or Malkin winger. It's not often so many good players are available.

As good as Gudbranson has been, it now makes adding a Gardiner or Krug more difficult because there's no way they're trading two of JJ, Maatta and Pettersson.

Hopefully they at least look into class of wingers this summer.

As good as Guds is playing right now, I'm still against the trade for this reason.

I think our best hope is that Pets rounds out into someone who can consistently play simple and smart when moving the puck. He's shown that he can, just needs to do it for a season and maybe do it on a higher pairing. Maybe you just trade Maatta, and hope Riikola also continues to improve as an offensive defenseman and can step in if Letang or Schultz goes down. Dunno.

 

[Peat]

As good as Guds is playing right now, I'm still against the trade for this reason.

I think our best hope is that Pets rounds out into someone who can consistently play simple and smart when moving the puck. He's shown that he can, just needs to do it for a season and maybe do it on a higher pairing. Maybe you just trade Maatta, and hope Riikola also continues to improve as an offensive defenseman and can step in if Letang or Schultz goes down. Dunno.

That would be some improvement.

Johnson's the real problem there. Gudbranson's compounded it, but its the overcrowding on the left that makes improving so difficult.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I'm gonna be pissed if they don't make use of this free agency class to address adding another offensive D-man or Malkin winger. It's not often so many good players are available.

They're going to be using the Kessel trade to bring in a winger for Malkin. They're not just going to trade Kessel for futures and do nothing, they'll probably trade Kessel for someone like Zucker and futures.

As good as Gudbranson has been, it now makes adding a Gardiner or Krug more difficult because there's no way they're trading two of JJ, Maatta and Pettersson.

Hopefully they at least look into class of wingers this summer.

Why do they need a guy like Gardiner or Krug? They don't need a pure OFD in any way. They might benefit from adding another puck mover, but I don't think they absolutely need to add one. With how Gudbranson has played, their defense is perfectly fine with Johnson-Schultz and Pettersson-Gudbranson as the bottom-4.

Your 3rd pair has been phenomenal and Gudbranson has had an Ian Cole like impact for the Penguins so far. Your 1st pair is obviously elite. The only spot to upgrade on is the 2nd pair LD spot, and that isn't a pressing need if Johnson continues to play how he has played. If you're looking for a 2nd pair LD, you're just looking for a better version of Johnson, anyway. You'd want a Despres or a Manson type of LD for that 2nd pair, not a Gardiner or Krug type of player.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I know how people think we'd like to play or are going to be playing, but still, Sid and G aren't good enough as they get older to make due with the Rust and McCanns of the world for us to be contenders...because that's what we're talking about, not just fielding a "good" team....we need the kind of skill on at least L2 that Jake brings to L1...Phil is not doing it right now and we need a better replacement...we're not going anywhere near the SCF without it...we at least have a PMD on the top two D pairs...imo Gardiner is less of a need if we re-sign Schultz than Panarin, Skinner etc...

I don't see "making do" with a Rust or McCann. Those players add a lot to a line. Speed, mucking in corners. Winning pucks. Getting the puck out of the D-zone and letting Geno play in the offensive zone. And they have more skill than you think, they just don't carry themselves as "skilled wingers."

The only question is can they make the dagger pass or finish it as well as a Phil can (or used to be able to do).

Look if Panarin indicates interest in coming here though for something like 7/$75, I'd flip my plans around in a heartbeat.

 

[ChaosAgent]

They're going to be using the Kessel trade to bring in a winger for Malkin. They're not just going to trade Kessel for futures and do nothing, they'll probably trade Kessel for someone like Zucker and futures.

A MN fan proposed Phil for Zuck + 2nd on the trade board. Is that good value? I'm too anti-Phil to make an objective judgment on the exact value.