Salary Cap: Salary Cap + Roster Building | Cap Details + Links in First Post | Phillin' Fine

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CheckingLineCenter

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Aug 10, 2018
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Agree...but with how many guys who will be ready soon...and their potential(Bellerive, Almeida, Bjorkvist, Hallander) all at once..we could potentially have a few guys who end up closer to Guentzel then say a Rust.

I think we’re gonna be lucky if 1-2 of those guys become even a Rust, much less Guentzel. For the most part, I’d just expect some ZAR/Simon/Blueger types in a couple years. Which is great. Cheap depth that can play up the lineup.

Not the type of prospects you plan your roster around though. Build this team out as much as you can and if there’s a Guentzel or Rust in there, he’ll force his way in.
 

JimmyTwoTimes

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I don't think our hit rate is going to be nearly what you are projecting. We have a couple useful prospects, yes, but isn't the Penguins system considered squarely in the bottom of the league?

Blocking prospects would just not enter my considerations this summer. However, if/when we move Phil and Maatta I would give real consideration to adding a good PMD (Gardiner) instead of blowing it on a winger. Rust/Geno/Teddy or Rust/Geno/ZAR aren't perfect lines but I think they would be big upgrades over this year's second line. Especially if they had good PMDs behind them.

Meant out of those 4 guys we will possibly hit on one whos closer to Jake. And the others having a complete game will better their chances.

We will see what happens but if I am right and we could sign our next Kessel to put us over the top...that could be what gets Crosby/Malkin another cup Or two. I just think Kessel isnt that player anymore..at least not here. Could easily see him picking up his play again somewhere else
 
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Gurglesons

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Meant out of those 4 guys we will possibly hit on one whos closer to Jake. And the others having a complete game will better their chances.

We will see what happens but if I am right and we could sign our next Kessel to put us over the top...that could be what gets Crosby/Malkin another cup Or two. I just think Kessel isnt that player anymore..at least not here. Could easily see him picking up his play again somewhere else

Jake is what some teams have as their “elite” player.

He’s basically Panarin.
 
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KIRK

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I feel like the large market of quality FA's this summer is worrying if we want to trade Kessel.

It is.

But, Phil's 6.8M cap hit is well below what comparable guys would get, and it also depends upon JR's ask.
 

KIRK

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Colorado has cap room and needs secondary scoring, how about Kessel for Compher+?

Colorado DESPERATELY needs a 2C. That's a much bigger priority for them this summer. BUT, I suppose Phil could be of interest too if the space is there.
 

CheckingLineCenter

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Jake is what some teams have as their “elite” player.

He’s basically Panarin.

Nah. Elite scorer, but he’s nowhere near Panarin in transition or as a play driver/puck carrier. Not as dynamic either. Can always improve though.

I will say that Jake at 6M >>> Panarin at whatever he’s getting in FA.
 
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Riptide

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Kessel has to go...then you do whatever it takes to surround Malkin with players that get the most out of him. Tho I think Bellerive could be one of those guys. And possibly Bjorkvist. And we already have Rust and McCann.

So id trade Kessel at the draft and get a top pick if possible. Or try to get a guy like Zucker . They just need to be careful with how much money they tie up longer term. Dont want to see prospects blocked. If a few pan out that allows us to sign one big FA...8mil for example.

They might be... but they're probably not going to be ready for several years.

Kessel has been a mess the last two seasons...I doubt Malkin would miss him. Hes done him no favors lately. Only way to motivate Kessel is going somewhere else..feeel like hes already checked out.

Obviously we will see during these playoffs so we could all feel diff if he gets back to himself. But this has been an issue ever sinxce the deadline last year.

He's too up and down. He'll go from having a terrible game to having a game where while he's not great, he's back checking, playing deep in the DZ and playing hard on the wall digging for pucks... then he'll go back to floating for a game... very frustrating.
 

mpp9

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Colorado DESPERATELY needs a 2C. That's a much bigger priority for them this summer. BUT, I suppose Phil could be of interest too if the space is there.

They get 1st overall with Hughes and that need is addressed for near league minimum.
 
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Honour Over Glory

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I get that this is sarcasm (or at least it should be), but Letang is back - so where is Riikola going to play? I mean best case scenario for him is #8 and we're still missing Maatta and Ruhwedel. That said Trotman played poorly enough for long enough that Riikola should have gotten a chance - I don't care how much Sullivan likes RD/LD balance.
A little bit sarcasm, a lot a bit legit anger.

In the 74 games, he should have been sent down a while back to get a ton of games in, instead he sat for f***ing 37.

That's f***ing idiotic. No matter how anyone wants to spin that garbage as positive, it's not.
 

Tom Hanks

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A little bit sarcasm, a lot a bit legit anger.

In the 74 games, he should have been sent down a while back to get a ton of games in, instead he sat for ****ing 37.

That's ****ing idiotic. No matter how anyone wants to spin that garbage as positive, it's not.

He never sat for very long in any stretch. This last one was the longest (9 games) but we needed 7 D men up. He’s was still training with us and a huge factor for him would have been getting paid at $925,000 instead of at $70,000.

I’m sure Riikola preferred it this way. Got paid and got some good exposure to the NHL. I don’t think it’s harmed his game at all or if it did it’d be minimal.
 

KIRK

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They might be... but they're probably not going to be ready for several years.



He's too up and down. He'll go from having a terrible game to having a game where while he's not great, he's back checking, playing deep in the DZ and playing hard on the wall digging for pucks... then he'll go back to floating for a game... very frustrating.

It's not just a game to game thing with Phil's schizo play. It's period to period. Even shift to shift.
 

KIRK

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They get 1st overall with Hughes and that need is addressed for near league minimum.

Oh for sure. Definite game changer.

Tkachuk is a nice player, but I still don't get what the hell Ottawa was thinking choosing to give Colorado their 2019 first instead of their 2018 first as part of the Duchene deal.
 

EightyOne

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Uh. Pavelski is cool and all, but he'll be looking at likely the last contract of his career. I have to imagine it'll be closer to 5 years, and I very much doubt it'll be at a pay cut...so it'll be $6+mil.

The only way those numbers are smaller is if he really doesn't want to leave SJS and wants to do a discount....I'm sure he won't really test the FA market or twist GMDW's balls much and so will finish career in SJS at 4ish years, $5mil-ish. But would never sign a contract like that for another team.

I dunno, man. I think it'll get ugly. He's already looking a little tired. Still a strong player...buuut....a gamble for sure.
 
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Gurglesons

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Uh. Pavelski is cool and all, but he'll be looking at likely the last contract of his career. I have to imagine it'll be closer to 5 years, and I very much doubt it'll be at a pay cut...so it'll be $6+mil.

The only way those numbers are smaller is if he really doesn't want to leave SJS and wants to do a discount....I'm sure he won't really test the FA market or twist GMDW's balls much and so will finish career in SJS at 4ish years, $5mil-ish. But would never sign a contract like that for another team.

I dunno, man. I think it'll get ugly. He's already looking a little tired. Still a strong player...buuut....a gamble for sure.

Try 8 mil.
 

Riptide

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I don't think our hit rate is going to be nearly what you are projecting. We have a couple useful prospects, yes, but isn't the Penguins system considered squarely in the bottom of the league? Blocking prospects would just not enter my considerations this summer.

Sure it is - but that's more so because we have no sure fire blue chip prospects who project to be top line players. I mean we could have another Guentzel in there and we'd still be ranked in the bottom of the league. And as long as Crosby and Malkin are near the top of the league in terms of their abilities, it won't be a big deal because our needs are small. We do not need a 1,2,3C, or a 1,2,3D or a 1G or a 1W. All we need out of our prospects is some cheap skilled middle 6 depth and some cheap blueline depth. And that's not asking all that much when you look at our prospect pool.

Agreed on worried about blocking a prospect. You leave 1 L4 spot open to competition between several players (including Wilson,etc who are NHL caliber) and if one of those kids is good enough to earn it, so be it. But if they're not, then they too can wait for injuries like Rust and others did. Or they can be so good that they force management's hand to give them a spot like Guentzel did. So while I wouldn't go giving everyone 2-4 year contracts, neither would I leave a spot completely open with the expectation that they can fill it anytime in the next 2 seasons.

However, if/when we move Phil and Maatta I would give real consideration to adding a good PMD (Gardiner) instead of blowing it on a winger. Rust/Geno/Teddy or Rust/Geno/ZAR aren't perfect lines but I think they would be big upgrades over this year's second line. Especially if they had good PMDs behind them.

Then who else is Rutherford moving out? Because we're not going to be sitting one of Johnson, Pettersson or Gudbranson based on how they've played recently. And if JJ is moved (not holding my breath), I really question whether Rutherford would then also move Maatta, or just role with who we have. And I think the latter is a lot more realistic then moving Kessel, Maatta and JJ, just so he can bring in another blueliner who's not going to be cheap.

This board is going to be a gold mine when Petts is scratched for Maatta.

Unless he starts playing like shit I don't think it'll happen - however perhaps that's just wishful thinking on my part.
 

Riptide

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Uh. Pavelski is cool and all, but he'll be looking at likely the last contract of his career. I have to imagine it'll be closer to 5 years, and I very much doubt it'll be at a pay cut...so it'll be $6+mil.

I dunno, man. I think it'll get ugly. He's already looking a little tired. Still a strong player...buuut....a gamble for sure.

I'm not so sure. I mean Marleau and Thornton have both taken 3-4 year deals every year. The only 4 yr deal for Marleau was when he was 31. All of Thornton's have been 3 yr deals until the last 2 seasons (1 yr). Burns is the oldest guy who's gotten any term in SJ, and he was 32 when he signed his 8 yr deal. So while I could maybe see him getting 4 years, I doubt he gets 5 - at least not from SJ (at least not without some massive discount like Little did).
 

Peat

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Jun 14, 2016
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Wouldn’t be hard to do, no.

But I’d prefer 5x5M in Pavelski’s case, even with his age for the immediate space.

I think one logical part of the trade Kessel idea is cap relief. Shave off 1.5-2M, get the team a little less top heavy, maybe be able to add even another T6/T9 forward (Perreault...?) if you move Maatta’s cap.

Trading Phil to give another (older) player a slightly more expensive cap hit keeps us just as top heavy salary wise, and idk, just feels meh. How much better do we get?

Fair enough. I'd prefer less term, but the long one could potentially be very good in the first few years if he bit on that. And you're right about giving a few more options.

I’m a big believer that they’re gonna need some ELC guys to come up play roles, and that the organization needs to be committed to building the farm up to maximize 87/71..

And of course they need to be mindful of financial planning long term. But at the same time I don’t want them to avoid adding proven contributors that help the team now because it could block a guy in the system that maybe will contribute down the line.

Problem is the moment for building the farm to maximise them has kinda gone. Kids we bring in this year may be 4 or so years from contributing, by which time Geno might have left. I guess this is a last chance saloon at getting some people in for if they do 6/7 years each.

I don't think our hit rate is going to be nearly what you are projecting. We have a couple useful prospects, yes, but isn't the Penguins system considered squarely in the bottom of the league?

I think we’re gonna be lucky if 1-2 of those guys become even a Rust, much less Guentzel. For the most part, I’d just expect some ZAR/Simon/Blueger types in a couple years. Which is great. Cheap depth that can play up the lineup.

Kinda echoing what Riptide said - we're fairly low because we've got no blue chip prospects, no potential 1Cs or 1Ds - but that doesn't mean we don't have talent there.

And our main need - a never ending stream of middle 6 wingers - is something we're strong in. WBS is about to get inundated with guys projecting around that level with strong junior and college careers. And since they've already ran the first half of the race and since we've got so many, I feel its fair to expect some good results. I don't think its guaranteed to get a Rust, but when we've got three guys hitting WBS soon who (imo) have a higher projected ceiling than Rust, I don't think it'd be lucky to get 1.

Of course you can't plan on something that big it until it happens.

edit: Actually, thinking about it, if you give each of Bellerive, Almeida and Hallander a 1 in 6 chance of being as good as Rust, and each of Bjorkqvist/Angello/Miletic/Johnson/Drozg/Lucchini a 1 in 20 chance, you have a 16 in 20 chance that one of them will be as good as Rust. And I feel like maybe you can plan on those odds... insomuch as you can plan for something that might be 2 years down the line.

Admittedly, those numbers were just pulled from my behind, but none of them are high. Its more a matter of we're firing a lot of shots in quick succession.

And that's not even considering the possibility of ZAR/Simon/Bloogs finding extra gears/Lafferty finding a future at W, not C/unexpected turnarounds from Blandisi/Di Pauli.

Then who else is Rutherford moving out? Because we're not going to be sitting one of Johnson, Pettersson or Gudbranson based on how they've played recently. And if JJ is moved (not holding my breath), I really question whether Rutherford would then also move Maatta, or just role with who we have. And I think the latter is a lot more realistic then moving Kessel, Maatta and JJ, just so he can bring in another blueliner who's not going to be cheap.

They're not playing that well. They're boxing out great and taking away a lot of dangerous stuff but they're allowing a ton of shots and getting a lot of support from the forwards while giving SFA back. I am grateful for what they're doing but the blueline is an obvious weakness and while it mightn't be realistic to expect Rutherford to get gung ho about fixing it, its still very desired.
 
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Big Friggin Dummy

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JR has to get guys roughly 25 or so years old. The whole point in moving on from Phil is not that he's struggling, though that's not helping matters, it's to get a younger group around Sid and Geno as they get older and decline. Phil does nothing for that, as he's the same age and will go through the same decline, likely at a more rapid pace.
 

ChaosAgent

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Then who else is Rutherford moving out? Because we're not going to be sitting one of Johnson, Pettersson or Gudbranson based on how they've played recently. And if JJ is moved (not holding my breath), I really question whether Rutherford would then also move Maatta, or just role with who we have. And I think the latter is a lot more realistic then moving Kessel, Maatta and JJ, just so he can bring in another blueliner who's not going to be cheap.

Couple things here:
1) bringing in Gardiner or someone like him is a normative suggestion on my part. What I want. If I'm talking about what I want for the team, what is realistic for Rutherford given his ego and favorites does not factor into my consideration. There's that whole positive (what's gonna happen knowing who runs the team)/normative (what's best in a fan's opinion) question of social sciences that I think we get mixed up in sometimes.

2) based on what others are saying, Maatta is gone regardless simply as a cap casualty. So he's not really facilitating Gardiner (or Gardiner-type)

3) going from the normative to the positive for a second, if JR landed a high-profile defenseman like Gardiner it becomes much easier for him to save face in moving JJ. "Well, we had a chance to get Jake Gardiner. We like Jack and he's a good player, but we have a salary cap..."

The scenario below would be:
  • Kessel for ELC middle-six winger + 1st round pick
  • JJ + 3rd rounder for anything
  • Maatta for a 2nd
  • Gardiner signed for 6/$45M
  • Pettersson for 2/$4.5M
Yes, we'd have an incredibly expensive defense but I'm cool with following the Nashville model + having Crosby/Malkin/Jake up front. If you think about it, from a forward perspective Crosby/Jake is about $24M worth of players that will be taking up $14.7M against the Cap. If 2017-2018 Geno is still in there, that's a $12-$13M player for $9.5 as well. So I'd suppose I'd say that we pay market value for our defense and our surplus value versus the Cap - what makes us good - is with the forwards.
 
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