Salary Cap: Salary Cap + Roster Building | Cap Details + Links in First Post | Phillin' Fine

[ChaosAgent]

Another comment on Hornqvist and why he should be playing in the top 6....

HockeyBuzz.com - Ryan Wilson - The Patric Hornqvist problem

I don't disagree with him but as someone who works with data:

LABEL. THE. *****G. AXES. OF. YOUR. GRAPHS.

 

[Riptide]

I'm gonna be pissed if they don't make use of this free agency class to address adding another offensive D-man or Malkin winger. It's not often so many good players are available.

As good as Gudbranson has been, it now makes adding a Gardiner or Krug more difficult because there's no way they're trading two of JJ, Maatta and Pettersson.

Hopefully they at least look into class of wingers this summer.

Then expect to be pissed off. Because the only way we will have the cap space to do anything is if we move 2 blueliner's and/or Kessel/Bjugstad/Hornqivst. And unless Rutherford makes some type of move for a top blueliner, I don't think he's going to move 2 blueliner's.

 

[Riptide]

A MN fan proposed Phil for Zuck + 2nd on the trade board. Is that good value? I'm too anti-Phil to make an objective judgment on the exact value.

I don't think any deal around Kessel/Zucker is good without a substantial add - which a 2nd isn't. Now if that 2nd was Fiala, I'd at least be a little more interested.

 

[Riptide]

Why do they need a guy like Gardiner or Krug? They don't need a pure OFD in any way. They might benefit from adding another puck mover, but I don't think they absolutely need to add one. With how Gudbranson has played, their defense is perfectly fine with Johnson-Schultz and Pettersson-Gudbranson as the bottom-4.

On the flip side if we had someone like that, it would take a ton of pressure off of us for the games that Letang and Schultz seem to miss. And that's in addition to what they'd bring to our team when healthy with their ability to carry the puck, move the puck in transition and making plays in the OZ. And there's obviously value in that for us and how our team is constructed and how we typically play.

 

[Jacob]

I think you don’t trade Kessel to improve the team immediately, you do it to improve the team over the next 5 years.

 

[Empoleon8771]

On the flip side if we had someone like that, it would take a ton of pressure off of us for the games that Letang and Schultz seem to miss. And that's in addition to what they'd bring to our team when healthy with their ability to carry the puck, move the puck in transition and making plays in the OZ. And there's obviously value in that for us and how our team is constructed and how we typically play.

You shouldn't be building your team based on being able to survive when you have injuries. Don't bring in a bad fit when everyone is healthy because you're scared of some injuries. It's the same dumb logic people used to argue for bringing in Brassard.

 

[ChaosAgent]

You shouldn't be building your team based on being able to survive when you have injuries. Don't bring in a bad fit when everyone is healthy because you're scared of some injuries. It's the same dumb logic people used to argue for bringing in Brassard.

There shouldn't be a cap on defenders able to move the puck up the ice and who can execute fluid breakouts.

 

[Empoleon8771]

There shouldn't be a cap on defenders able to move the puck up the ice and who can execute fluid breakouts.

There should be a cap on defenders who are horrid defensively, which Gardiner especially is. You want a puck mover? Go after a Dumoulin type of puck mover, not an OFD. Building your team based on being able to survive with a massive injury to one of your cornerstones has been just an incredibly dumb argument to me.

 

[ChaosAgent]

There should be a cap on defenders who are horrid defensively, which Gardiner especially is. You want a puck mover? Go after a Dumoulin type of puck mover, not an OFD.

Is he that bad? I was under the impression that he was averageish defensively but well above-average offensively. That's a player we could use. If he isn't out there then I guess we'd just do a Kessel for Zucker trade.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Is he that bad? I was under the impression that he was averageish defensively but well above-average offensively. That's a player we could use. If he isn't out there then I guess we'd just do a Kessel for Zucker trade.

Yeah, I've heard really bad things about Gardiner defensively. I don't know if Krug is that bad, but I know Gardiner is terrible. I'm fully in support of adding another PMD, I just want it to be a Manson, Dumoulin or Desires type. The only spot they could upgrade on defense is Johnson for a better version of Johnson. If Maatta was playing to his best, I would consider this defense legitimately good.

 

[Riptide]

You shouldn't be building your team based on being able to survive when you have injuries. Don't bring in a bad fit when everyone is healthy because you're scared of some injuries. It's the same dumb logic people used to argue for bringing in Brassard.

Sure... except for the fact that Krug or Gardiner are not bad fits.

Yeah, I've heard really bad things about Gardiner defensively. I don't know if Krug is that bad, but I know Gardiner is terrible. I'm fully in support of adding another PMD, I just want it to be a Manson, Dumoulin or Desires type. The only spot they could upgrade on defense is Johnson for a better version of Johnson. If Maatta was playing to his best, I would consider this defense legitimately good.

See this is about a difference of opinion, not about a "bad fit".

 

[ChaosAgent]

Speculation: - Jake Gardiner’s UFA contract

Trade board thread on Gardiner:

1) Very good offensively
2) Fails the eye test miserably defensively
3) Analytics like him a lot though (but these are hockey analytics, not baseball, so imma take them with some grains of salt)
4) Has a really severe back injury right now

#4 scares me quite a bit. I probably pass for that reason. I'd still look for a PMD in the Phil deal, though.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Don't sell Washington short. They have one cup and one Martin Erat to show for it.

And no Forsberg, hahahahahaahhaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahhaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahhaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahhaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahhaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahhaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahhaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahhaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahhaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahhaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahhaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahhaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahhaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahhaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahhaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahhaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahhaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahhaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahhaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahhaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahhaahahahahahahahahaha...

 

[Gurglesons]

Yeah, I've heard really bad things about Gardiner defensively. I don't know if Krug is that bad, but I know Gardiner is terrible. I'm fully in support of adding another PMD, I just want it to be a Manson, Dumoulin or Desires type. The only spot they could upgrade on defense is Johnson for a better version of Johnson. If Maatta was playing to his best, I would consider this defense legitimately good.

You’re the only desires type we need Empo.

 

[Gurglesons]

Speculation: - Jake Gardiner’s UFA contract

Trade board thread on Gardiner:

1) Very good offensively
2) Fails the eye test miserably defensively
3) Analytics like him a lot though (but these are hockey analytics, not baseball, so imma take them with some grains of salt)
4) Has a really severe back injury right now

#4 scares me quite a bit. I probably pass for that reason. I'd still look for a PMD in the Phil deal, though.

I wouldn’t really trust Toronto’s fan base when it comes to evaluating players. They are basically an even more amplified version of our fan base.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I wouldn’t really trust Toronto’s fan base when it comes to evaluating players. They are basically an even more amplified version of our fan base.

In other words, if they like a player he's basically the best player ever, and if they hate a player he's basically the worst player ever.

 

[Coach Travis]

Another comment on Hornqvist and why he should be playing in the top 6....

HockeyBuzz.com - Ryan Wilson - The Patric Hornqvist problem

I'm pretty much onboard with how "Gunner Staal" evaluates Patric Hornqvist but I also am in no rush to get rid of him unless he prevents the Pens from pursuing something better. Hornqvist has an incredible knack for knocking in garbage goals but he lacks the skills to create those opportunities on his own, he's also unwilling or unable to create controlled entries.

Here's where I think Malkin's injury might be an opportunity to get things on the right foot in time for the playoffs: Since Bjugstad appears to be the 3C we all hoped and dreamed he could be, I'd like to see a 2nd line of Simon-Bjugstad-Kessel. Simon is a Corsi god, or at least a Corsi elf, in that whatever line he's on sees a boost in possession and scoring chances. Bjugstad actually has really impressive hands and an ability to protect the puck. I feel like though if he had Kessel setting up to receive a pass instead of Hornqvist crashing the net, he'd get a bit more room as players would have to respect the passing option more since when "Bjug Nick Energy" starts dangling towards the net, and Hornqvist is already at the net, it's not a big mystery as to where Nick is heading. And as hard as that large Minnesotan can shoot the puck, his aim is atrocious.

That leaves Blueger as the 3C between Hornqvist & Rust/McCann/ZAR, until Teddy is eventually relieved by Malkin. That gives us back the Crosby, Malkin and Kessel on 3 separate lines depth again.

So maybe...

Guentzel - Crosby - Rust
Simon - Bjugstad - Kessel
McCann - Bleuger - Hornqvist

Then after Malkin comes back...

Guentzel - Crosby - Rust
McCann - Malkin - Hornqvist
Simon - Bjugstad - Kessel

 

[Riptide]

I'm pretty much onboard with how "Gunner Staal" evaluates Patric Hornqvist but I also am in no rush to get rid of him unless he prevents the Pens from pursuing something better. Hornqvist has an incredible knack for knocking in garbage goals but he lacks the skills to create those opportunities on his own, he's also unwilling or unable to create controlled entries.

He's unwilling to do it because he's unable to do it consistently when he doesn't have a clear lane. As @Jesse said in an article about this very thing last year (almost to the date - link below), you don't ask your dog to meow.

Last season Hornqvist on a very consistent basis was either able to retrieve the pucks himself, or was putting them into positions where a linemate could retrieve the puck when he was dumping the puck in. Very rarely (even in games where we were getting blown out) were his dump-in's resulting in turn over's. So if he's able to get the puck into the OZ and then gain possession of it, I could care less if he dumps it in vs carrying it in - as long as we get the puck.

The catch of course is that it's all good until it isn't, and these stats are from last season with no updates for this season. But for me, as long as we have a spot and a need for him in the top 9, I'm not going to get too worked up about his poor zone entries.

Marshall: Patric Hornqvist is the ultimate space creator
NHL Possession Efficiency Ratings

 

[Peat]

Sure... except for the fact that Krug or Gardiner are not bad fits.



See this is about a difference of opinion, not about a "bad fit".

Tbh, I think if Sully's reign has taught us anything, its that we can have 3 very offensive dmen without it being a fit. Sure, its also taught us that we don't have to do things that way... but we can.

And I think the longer this cycle heavy approach to the game goes on, and the more other teams twig to it, the more difficult things are going to get if we don't have very many dmen who can cycle well themselves or whose point shots demand respect.

 

[NMK11]

I'm pretty much onboard with how "Gunner Staal" evaluates Patric Hornqvist but I also am in no rush to get rid of him unless he prevents the Pens from pursuing something better. Hornqvist has an incredible knack for knocking in garbage goals but he lacks the skills to create those opportunities on his own, he's also unwilling or unable to create controlled entries.

Here's where I think Malkin's injury might be an opportunity to get things on the right foot in time for the playoffs: Since Bjugstad appears to be the 3C we all hoped and dreamed he could be, I'd like to see a 2nd line of Simon-Bjugstad-Kessel. Simon is a Corsi god, or at least a Corsi elf, in that whatever line he's on sees a boost in possession and scoring chances. Bjugstad actually has really impressive hands and an ability to protect the puck. I feel like though if he had Kessel setting up to receive a pass instead of Hornqvist crashing the net, he'd get a bit more room as players would have to respect the passing option more since when "Bjug Nick Energy" starts dangling towards the net, and Hornqvist is already at the net, it's not a big mystery as to where Nick is heading. And as hard as that large Minnesotan can shoot the puck, his aim is atrocious.

That leaves Blueger as the 3C between Hornqvist & Rust/McCann/ZAR, until Teddy is eventually relieved by Malkin. That gives us back the Crosby, Malkin and Kessel on 3 separate lines depth again.

So maybe...

Guentzel - Crosby - Rust
Simon - Bjugstad - Kessel
McCann - Bleuger - Hornqvist

Then after Malkin comes back...

Guentzel - Crosby - Rust
McCann - Malkin - Hornqvist
Simon - Bjugstad - Kessel

The one issue here I've brought up before, is which is your matchup line? You need a line that plays more than 10 minutes (aka not the fourth) to feel comfortable throwing out against top lines. One of the reasons I feel like Brassard didn't work well is that he was being paired with guys like Kessel and Simon, two of our worst defensive wings, and still getting heavy dzone starts. Simon-Bjugstad-Kessel looks great, but that line needs matchups and to play in the ozone. Only way that works is if Crosby's and/or Malkin's line sees tougher starts and opponents, which most people seem to be against.

 

[Peat]

The one issue here I've brought up before, is which is your matchup line? You need a line that plays more than 10 minutes (aka not the fourth) to feel comfortable throwing out against top lines. One of the reasons I feel like Brassard didn't work well is that he was being paired with guys like Kessel and Simon, two of our worst defensive wings, and still getting heavy dzone starts. Simon-Bjugstad-Kessel looks great, but that line needs matchups and to play in the ozone. Only way that works is if Crosby's and/or Malkin's line sees tougher starts and opponents, which most people seem to be against.

I'm okay with spreading that defensive load a bit more evenly if a Bjugstad-Kessel line took off. Both Sid and Geno can do it with the right support - and arguably respond well to playing match up - and if all three lines are taking off, you get less dzone starts anyway.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Sure... except for the fact that Krug or Gardiner are not bad fits.

They aren't good fits though. They fit the Penguins play style, but they don't fit at all on the defense. The only spot you can upgrade on is the 2nd pair LD spot, and neither of those guys complement Schultz at all.

See this is about a difference of opinion, not about a "bad fit".

Saying 2 undersized OFD wouldn't fit well on a pair with another undersized OFD isn't a "difference of opinion", it seems pretty self explanatory.

You're not going to pay Krug or Gardiner $6+ million to play on the 3rd pair. Neither of them fit on pairs with Letang or Schultz. I'm really not seeing where they fit here

 

[StaalForOne]

I feel like Simon's possession stats are a bit misleading. I think he has a lot of non threatening shots, and is very willing to throw pucks on net from anywhere. I am not saying he is bad, as a matter of fact I think he's a good player, but I think this is a case where the possession stats are a bit inflated.

As others have mentioned I like the Bjugstad-Kessel idea with another worker bee on LW. Malkin and Kessel is feast or famine. When they are on together they are so dangerous, but if they are both off its frustrating. If Malkin/Kessel themselves insist on staying together then Hornqvist is fine on that third line with Bjug/Simon. There needs to be an energy guy with Malkin and Kessel (McCann or Rust).

 

[Peat]

So, uh, kinda obvious thought that I don't think anybody here has brought up -

How about 7D now Maatta is fit? Its not like we're really using our 12th forward right now. Ease him back in slowly, give the chemistry a jiggle and see who looks most disposable with them all playing the same system. I don't see it happening, but it would seem to make sense to me as an option.

 

[JRS91]

I think Gudbranson would be the odd man out.

He's been good, but I feel like they'll sit him against less physical teams in favor of playing Maatta.