Salary Cap: Salary Cap + Roster Building | Cap Details + Links in First Post | Phillin' Fine

[ChaosAgent]

@Riptide : on him being a net positive at ES. Many, many stats our there do not have Phil as a net-positive for us at ES right now. @Peat referenced WAR calcs at Evolving-Hockey and you can go have a look for yourself at where he ranks among our skaters this year.

You disagree and I get that. But if I believe that a player's not a net positive and won't be better next year, while they take up 8% ($6.8/$83) of next year's salary cap while an average player makes 4%, wouldn't it be rational to say that we'd be better off simply losing that $6.8M/8% outright? Now look, I'd try like crazy to get value for that 8%, and I believe something of value is out there if multiple bidders get involved (making him uncomfortable and more willing to waive his NTC would help). But at the end of the day I'd give it away for very little or even nothing.

Here's a heuristic I'd almost like to see inserted as a poll into this thread: if Phil were a pending UFA and he was demanding a 3YR/$20.4M contract ($6.8M/year), would you give it to him? You'd say yes. I'd say no, because I despise him now as you note. I wonder what the poll results would say.

 

[Tacitus Kilgore]

Man Perron has 40pts in 48 games.

Before he came here i always thought he'd work so well with Sid. It was really weird that he didn't work out but meh i mean it all ended up alright

 

[Tom Hanks]

Before he came here i always thought he'd work so well with Sid. It was really weird that he didn't work out but meh i mean it all ended up alright

When he was here he really liked to carry the puck and kind of do things on his own. At first it seemed great because we lacked wingers who could do that but it didn’t mesh well with Sid and Geno. He was a bit lazy getting back on D too.

 

[Tacitus Kilgore]

When he was here he really liked to carry the puck and kind of do things on his own. At first it seemed great because we lacked wingers who could do that but it didn’t mesh well with Sid and Geno. He was a bit lazy getting back on D too.

Did he ever play under Sully or just Johnston? Because i wonder if a difference could've been made in his play.

 

[Tom Hanks]

Did he ever play under Sully or just Johnston? Because i wonder if a difference could've been made in his play.

He did play under Sully for a month. Didn’t score a goal and was a -7 in 15 games

He didn’t really fit Sully’s style. So I imagine he let JR know that. I know Sully wanted Hags but not sure if he told JR to get him or it came up and Sully agreed.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

He did play under Sully for a month. Didn’t score a goal and was a -7 in 15 games

He didn’t really fit Sully’s style. So I imagine he let JR know that. I know Sully wanted Hags but not sure if he told JR to get him or it came up and Sully agreed.

Looking back at Rutherford's teams, he seemed to like speedy guys from the get go, so I think that was more JR's thing and Sullivan made it work. Because there are times, Sully seems to like the meh skating guys.

Perron wasn't really tried with anyone outside of Geno for the most part and because we sucked so hard under MJ, we don't know if he could have just meshed really well with Bones or not with a new system, but I don't regret it for a second because he was why we got Hagelin.


I MISS YOU HAGSY...

 

[LOGiK]

Looking back at Rutherford's teams, he seemed to like speedy guys from the get go, so I think that was more JR's thing and Sullivan made it work. Because there are times, Sully seems to like the meh skating guys.

Perron wasn't really tried with anyone outside of Geno for the most part and because we sucked so hard under MJ, we don't know if he could have just meshed really well with Bones or not with a new system, but I don't regret it for a second because he was why we got Hagelin.


I MISS YOU HAGSY...

Gotta think Hags = Guds at this point.
I still think pens sign hags in the offseason. I have the feels of love lost.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Gotta think Hags = Guds at this point.
I still think pens sign hags in the offseason. I have the feels of love lost.

First, I want to apologize to the mod that is (rightfully) going to move this to the trade forum...

Well the issue is this.

First, we needed a tough guy that can play a regular shift, we had that in Reaves, Sullivan pouted like a little bitch and didn't want to use him correctly, then he clashed with Cole, so we lost our toughness in one fell swoop. Then we got Oleksiak, because of his size everyone assumed he was the guy to play the regular shift and fight, but guess what, he's an offensive defenseman that the Pens used poorly, then he goes back to the Stars and they continue to use him poorly there again (feel for the guy, I hope someone else trades for him in the summer).

Then we get Gudbranson because Hagelin wasn't producing, Gudbranson is doing his Reaves thing basically, at 3x the cost. And now, our defense is muddled again when everyone is back. We have a weak ass pipeline of defensemen and we've jobbed the f*** out of Riikola who could be a stud if he was allowed to play through his shit as much as the rest of the guys are allowed to. Wilson is now a guy that the coach loves and the GM puppets his notions because he's a guy that fights and brings it every shift against teams like the Caps. LOL...

Back to Reaves...he was a solid 4th liner in St.Louis and in Vegas, you know where he wasn't? Pittsburgh. You know who plays OUR GAME better than US? Vegas and even the Blues at this point in time. I can't help but laugh my ass off. I am more sad for Matt Cullen. He came back to this, blowing leads and a real serious shot at not making it without Geno now too and oh what does that do? The injuries just dropped a giant deuce of a scapegoat if they don't make it or if they do and are bounced in the first round.

The amount of errors is hilarious af. It's not just Rutherford, it's also Sullivan, equal parts idiots.

Some how horrible laughable GM's and coaches last year...are jobbing the f*** out of us and this team has earned it at every turn. I can admit that.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Also @shoplifter ...I am 100% on board with bringing Hagelin back. IF we move on from Kessel, a team like Nashville being the target or whomever.

People keep mentioning Zucker, if people think that deal 1 for 1 is a good one for us, yikes. Just...yikes.

What works for me is if we do this:

To Minnesota:
Olli Maatta
Phil Kessel
Our 1st
Dominik Simon

To Pittsburgh:
Jonas Brodin
Minnesota's 2nd
Minnesota's 3rd
Jason Zucker
Kevin Fiala

 

[Tom Hanks]

Looking back at Rutherford's teams, he seemed to like speedy guys from the get go, so I think that was more JR's thing and Sullivan made it work. Because there are times, Sully seems to like the meh skating guys.

Perron wasn't really tried with anyone outside of Geno for the most part and because we sucked so hard under MJ, we don't know if he could have just meshed really well with Bones or not with a new system, but I don't regret it for a second because he was why we got Hagelin.


I MISS YOU HAGSY...

I don’t think Perron and Kessel on the same team is a good idea. Sully coached Hags for a couple years and he wanted a speed game. The meh skaters might just be because of what else they brought.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I don’t think Perron and Kessel on the same team is a good idea. Sully coached Hags for a couple years and he wanted a speed game. The meh skaters might just be because of what else they brought.

I would never bring Perron back, he wasn't a good fit from the start I thought. Also, Sully ASSISTANT COACHED Hagelin.


Sully also ASSISTANT COACHED Big Game Brass.


Try not to fall when you're laughing.

 

[LOGiK]

Also @shoplifter ...I am 100% on board with bringing Hagelin back. IF we move on from Kessel, a team like Nashville being the target or whomever.

People keep mentioning Zucker, if people think that deal 1 for 1 is a good one for us, yikes. Just...yikes.

What works for me is if we do this:

To Minnesota:
Olli Maatta
Phil Kessel
Our 1st
Dominik Simon

To Pittsburgh:
Jonas Brodin
Minnesota's 2nd
Minnesota's 3rd
Jason Zucker
Kevin Fiala

I agree and I'm pretty sure the board would agree we replaced what we had and got worse with a higher spending.

I don't get the whole hags thing honestly. Only to ship him where he wouldn't be our bane, and give enough time in the season for the west to ship him to our bane. Frustrating in the least.

Yes and yes to Reevy and Cole... I do like Gud though, but he just so expensive. Maatta gotta go. Not worth his price in the least.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I agree and I'm pretty sure the board would agree we replaced what we had and got worse with a higher spending.

I don't get the whole hags thing honestly. Only to ship him where he wouldn't be our bane, and give enough time in the season for the west to ship him to our bane. Frustrating in the least.

Yes and yes to Reevy and Cole... I do like Gud though, but he just so expensive. Maatta gotta go. Not worth his price in the least.

Cole oddly is more expensive than Gudbranson right now and I get it, I would give 250k more too for what Cole brings to a defense.

Maatta is ass. Slow, ass.

I also like Gudbranson, I think he's been solid for us, it is just sad that we had to go a round about way to get an effective player and what this team forfeit along the way. Also, Hagelin was dumped to the Kings knowing he'd get moved, but he got moved right to the Pens rivals and can likely burn our ass in the playoffs if this team ever makes it or even faces them.

 

[LOGiK]

Cole oddly is more expensive than Gudbranson right now and I get it, I would give 250k more too for what Cole brings to a defense.

Maatta is ass. Slow, ass.

I also like Gudbranson, I think he's been solid for us, it is just sad that we had to go a round about way to get an effective player and what this team forfeit along the way. Also, Hagelin was dumped to the Kings knowing he'd get moved, but he got moved right to the Pens rivals and can likely burn our ass in the playoffs if this team ever makes it or even faces them.

I'm in no condition to look into this, but is there a team besides the penguins with more first round picks on a team?
Sid, Geno, Kessel, Guds. Maatta, JJ, Bjugs, McCann.
That is crazy.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Also @shoplifter ...I am 100% on board with bringing Hagelin back. IF we move on from Kessel, a team like Nashville being the target or whomever.

People keep mentioning Zucker, if people think that deal 1 for 1 is a good one for us, yikes. Just...yikes.

What works for me is if we do this:

To Minnesota:
Olli Maatta
Phil Kessel
Our 1st
Dominik Simon

To Pittsburgh:
Jonas Brodin
Minnesota's 2nd
Minnesota's 3rd
Jason Zucker
Kevin Fiala

That's a blockbuster, but I'd do that for sure. I don't think Minnesota would though.

 

[LOGiK]

That's a blockbuster, but I'd do that for sure. I don't think Minnesota would though.

Blockbuster is now defunct for bad moves in business.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

That's a blockbuster, but I'd do that for sure. I don't think Minnesota would though.

Salary wise, I think they win out vs us as Fiala would need a new contract and Simon is good for another year.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I'm in no condition to look into this, but is there a team besides the penguins with more first round picks on a team?
Sid, Geno, Kessel, Guds. Maatta, JJ, Bjugs, McCann.
That is crazy.

Capitals.

1. Backstrom
2. Burakovsky
3. Connolly
4. Carlson
5. Ovechkin
6. Oshie
7. Vrana
8. Eller
9. Wilson
10. Niskanen

Also for comparison...

Lightning

1. Stamkos
2. Hedman
3. Miller
4. Koekkoek
5. Vasilevskiy
6. Coburn
7. Sergachev
8. McDonagh

Leaves

1. Marner
2. Tavares
3. Matthews
4. Nylander
5. Marleau
6. Reilly
7. Kapanen
8. Kadri
9. Gardiner
10. Hainsey
11. Ennis (lol)

Loilers

1. McDavid
2. Draisaitl
3. Nugent-Hopkins
4. Nurse
5. Klefbom
6. Kassian
7. Larsson
8. Poopjuicefarty
9. Gagner
10. Yamamoto

 

[LOGiK]

Capitals.

1. Backstrom
2. Burakovsky
3. Connolly
4. Carlson
5. Ovechkin
6. Oshie
7. Vrana
8. Eller
9. Wilson
10. Niskanen

Sick. That is sick.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Sick. That is sick.

Yeah, it's funny because those teams have more than us but people whine about the Pens all the time.

1. Crosby
2. Malkin
3. Kessel
4. Bjugstad
5. McCann
6. Maatta
7. Gudbranson
8. Johnson

 

[LOGiK]

Yeah, it's funny because those teams have more than us but people whine about the Pens all the time.

1. Crosby
2. Malkin
3. Kessel
4. Bjugstad
5. McCann
6. Maatta
7. Gudbranson
8. Johnson

Bro super slick...
I had to click every penguin to find out that stat.
dedication ++ HOG - sorry, but your acro is hog

 

[Riptide]

Also @shoplifter ...I am 100% on board with bringing Hagelin back. IF we move on from Kessel, a team like Nashville being the target or whomever.

People keep mentioning Zucker, if people think that deal 1 for 1 is a good one for us, yikes. Just...yikes.

What works for me is if we do this:

To Minnesota:
Olli Maatta
Phil Kessel
Our 1st
Dominik Simon

To Pittsburgh:
Jonas Brodin
Minnesota's 2nd
Minnesota's 3rd
Jason Zucker
Kevin Fiala

Had a reply typed out and apparently didn't hit reply.

What would we be doing with the blueline?

Rutherford isn't going to trade Gudbranson. I know on the day of the trade we all hated the deal (myself included). But I don't think anyone foresaw him playing like he's been playing. He's not the 2nd coming of Letang, but he's been very very good. And while 4m isn't cheap, given how well he's played and the fact that he's a RHS/RD and comes with that size/grit that Rutherford is craving, unless he suddenly starts playing like shit, he's not going anywhere.

That leaves JJ or Maatta and I think everyone knows who would get moved (and no, it's not both - unless we're bringing someone like Fowler). So what would the point be of moving Maatta for another Maatta like blueliner? Regardless of what one thinks of Brodin, he's not good enough that he's going to force JR's hand to move one of Gudbranson or Johnson and I don't think anyone thinks he'd move Pettersson. So what would the point be of the above trade?

I could get behind something around Fiala and Zucker for Kessel (add as needed), but there's little reason to include Maatta/Brodin in it unless you have another deal lined up for Brodin already where we're not taking back salary. And if that's the case, odds are one could just do the same sort of deal with Maatta. We're not going to have an issue moving a 2 time cup winning 24/25 yr old top 4D who's signed to a nice contract with some term.

 

[Riptide]

Bro super slick...
I had to click every penguin to find out that stat.
dedication ++ HOG - sorry, but your acro is hog

NHL.com has an option in player stats to sort by the round they were drafted in. Pittsburgh actually had 12 1st rounder's on the roster this year. Filter by the team, then their draft round.

Crosby, Malkin, Kessel, Brassard, Pearson, McCann, Johnson, Maatta, Oleksiak, Bjugstad, Sheahan and Gudbranson.


http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?rep...r=gamesPlayed,gte,1&sort=points,goals,assists

 

[Peat]

I think there needs to be a massive massive asterisks on the first part here. Those less expensive options COULD be just as good, but it's far from a guarantee or they'd never be available. As for those killer things, we've also acquired some very good players while other's have taken some pretty significant steps over the past year or so.

I was referring more to what we've had and what we currently have than what we'd get. Kunitz-Malkin-Rust is as good as any Malkin-Kessel playoff line; I'd say that HMH and Hagelin-Malkin-Rust are equal to anything he's done with Phil regular season. And I'm talking the heights, there's been some pretty ordinary Malkin-Kessel combinations.

And we still have Rust (save better) and Hornqvist. Is McCann intelligent enough to do the Hagelin role (he certainly finishes better)? Is ZAR ready to be old not-that good Kunitz? I think the answer to that currently is inconsistently, but Kessel's been inconsistent as well. People would complain about him having to do it all by himself with those lines, but as I've already said he shouldn't be doing half a line's going to the dirty areas either.

And so, imo, we've kinda already got the options in house. Most times, they'll be as good as Kessel is most times. The top end potential remains in terms of numbers. And they're all less expensive than Kessel. And of course the times they're bad will be less damaging.

Of course, if Kessel as part of a killer 3rd line was still open, this'd be a rather different conversation.

I could get behind something around Fiala and Zucker for Kessel (add as needed), but there's little reason to include Maatta/Brodin in it unless you have another deal lined up for Brodin already where we're not taking back salary. And if that's the case, odds are one could just do the same sort of deal with Maatta. We're not going to have an issue moving a 2 time cup winning 24/25 yr old top 4D who's signed to a nice contract with some term.

Fiala gets paid next year anyway, making the move impossible. Not to mention it suddenly tilts our wings to being too left sided and too right sided, particularly if he throws in Simon.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

Before he came here i always thought he'd work so well with Sid. It was really weird that he didn't work out but meh i mean it all ended up alright

Thing is, he never really got much of a chance with Sid- he was with Geno a lot. The select times they did play Perron/Sid together, they were ok...would of liked to see more