Salary Cap: Salary Cap + Roster Building | Cap Details + Links in First Post | Phillin' Fine

[Riptide]

I don't get why more people on here aren't cool with that type of move this summer. He's exactly the type of player who'd help get us back to a 2016 speed/tenacity type of team. He's got Hagelin wheels, McCann empty net powers and Guentzel type fearlessness and smarts around the net with legit finishing ability.

He's small and had injury issues in the past so there's a risk, sure. But in terms of play style and ES scoring, he's pretty ideal. Combine that with him having almost moved at the deadline for a meh roster player and a pick, that's something we should be all over. And maybe JR was, but it's not something we could do with the injury situation on defense and with a Kessel move making more sense in the summer.

Because in addition to those injury issues, he's having a pretty rough season (21g/39pts) and carries a very big contract at 5.5m for 4 additional seasons. And he runs the very real risk of making us easier to play against as he's significantly more dependent on his center then Kessel is to create something offensively.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

I don't get why more people on here aren't cool with that type of move this summer. He's exactly the type of player who'd help get us back to a 2016 speed/tenacity type of team. He's got Hagelin wheels, McCann empty net powers and Guentzel type fearlessness and smarts around the net with legit finishing ability.

He's small and had injury issues in the past so there's a risk, sure. But in terms of play style and ES scoring, he's pretty ideal. Combine that with him having almost moved at the deadline for a meh roster player and a pick, that's something we should be all over. And maybe JR was, but it's not something we could do with the injury situation on defense and with a Kessel move making more sense in the summer.

Zucker is a lot like Kessel but without the playmaking ability / vision. He's absolutely no better on the boards or defensively, and as you say, he gets injuries because he's even smaller than Kessel and relies on some goals in front of the net. He would be better than Kessel at setting up in the slot and getting off a one-timer, but his wrist shot in and of itself is probably NHL average at best. He does score an awful lot of empty netters, which inflates his goal numbers. He is generally ineffective in the post season (4 goals in 31 games), as he is easily boxed out from the net by competent defensive teams, and has difficulty beating top flight goaltenders with his shot.

He is not going to create a lot on his own due to his general lack of creativity, and you would need an incredibly strong board battler and defensive forward on the RW if you are planning on playing him with Geno. I'd suspect Geno would end up back to being the mucker and board battler if he played with Zucker.

His skill (and handedness) aren't sufficient for him to be on PP1 here, so you could expect maybe 15 ES goals a year from him on Geno's wing if they had the proper support on the RW and backend. He gets assists mainly on rebounds, not on passes.

Zucker here, with little PP time, is probably a 30-40 point player for 5.5m a year for 4 more years who does literally nothing except put up those stats. His best stat season two years ago saw him shoot 15% due to a large number of EN goals and lots of 1st unit PP time.

Rust on LW is a far better player from what I've seen, so not sure why people keep bringing this guy up. The Wild signed him because they are so starved for any kind of offense.

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

Well, I'm not sure why Minnesota wants Kessel.

Fenton's moves have been a bit odd, but I think it's clear that he's trying to make the team younger.

We'd probably need a third team involved that would want Kessel and him being satisfied with that team, if we are to get Zucker.

 

[Peat]

Well, I'm not sure why Minnesota wants Kessel.

Fenton's moves have been a bit odd, but I think it's clear that he's trying to make the team younger.

We'd probably need a third team involved that would want Kessel and him being satisfied with that team, if we are to get Zucker.

I'm inclined to agree and believe Zucker would cost Bjugstad which I'm increasingly less okay with.

 

[Shrimper]

Well, I'm not sure why Minnesota wants Kessel.

Fenton's moves have been a bit odd, but I think it's clear that he's trying to make the team younger.

We'd probably need a third team involved that would want Kessel and him being satisfied with that team, if we are to get Zucker.

Yeah, a lot of people are talking about moving Kessel but they seem to be ignoring that there might not be as much interest out there.

 

[Riptide]

Yeah, a lot of people are talking about moving Kessel but they seem to be ignoring that there might not be as much interest out there.

I don't think we'd have a problem moving him... I just don't think we'd get what most think we would, and I seriously question whether we would have a better team afterwards. Nor do I think we'd gain more than 2-4m in cap space. So while we would probably be better defensively and maybe more consistent effort wise on a nightly basis, I don't think we'd be a better team.

All in all I don't know what the solution is. Kessel's fit here is awkward at best, so it's not all that hard to make an argument that finding someone with a more well rounded game who is a better fit would make us a better team. The issue is I'm not sure it's going to be all that easy to get the player we'd want between Kessel with his flaws and his cap hit and NTC. We'll get the 1st, roster player (with salary) and a young guy. I just struggle to see that making us a better team today or in the near future.

 

[madinsomniac]

I don't think we'd have a problem moving him... I just don't think we'd get what most think we would, and I seriously question whether we would have a better team afterwards. Nor do I think we'd gain more than 2-4m in cap space. So while we would probably be better defensively and maybe more consistent effort wise on a nightly basis, I don't think we'd be a better team.

All in all I don't know what the solution is. Kessel's fit here is awkward at best, so it's not all that hard to make an argument that finding someone with a more well rounded game who is a better fit would make us a better team. The issue is I'm not sure it's going to be all that easy to get the player we'd want between Kessel with his flaws and his cap hit and NTC. We'll get the 1st, roster player (with salary) and a young guy. I just struggle to see that making us a better team today or in the near future.

Yeah thats where I am at too... Kessel is durable and typically productive. He has a history of upping his game come playoffs... whats more is when he is on, he doesn’t need a Malkin or Sid to be productive...

I don’t see a trade that replaces all of that within the timeframe of this window being opened and certainly not at that cap hit...

Maybe a three way deal where you get someone to retain on a guy i guess, but there aren’t any easy options and UFAs are rarely the answer

 

[Burn]

The Pens dont need Zucker... They need Zuccerllo. Skill to play with Malkin and some grit too. He would do for Malkin what Kunitz did for Crosby.

 

[Peat]

Yeah thats where I am at too... Kessel is durable and typically productive. He has a history of upping his game come playoffs... whats more is when he is on, he doesn’t need a Malkin or Sid to be productive...

I don’t see a trade that replaces all of that within the timeframe of this window being opened and certainly not at that cap hit...

Maybe a three way deal where you get someone to retain on a guy i guess, but there aren’t any easy options and UFAs are rarely the answer

We don't seem very likely to see that anytime soon though. He's been stapled to the top 6's asses more or less all season and according to the rumour mill, that's what he's pushed for. Which is a shame because, no matter his other assets, Kessel has yet to do anything by the raw numbers that our complimentary wingers couldn't do for Sid and Geno. In terms of a good top 6 arguably his replacements are already here.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

If we want skill, give me Skinner. He and Rust flanking Geno would be great, imo. His recent struggles down the stretch could help us out this summer too when it comes to his asking price.

 

[Riptide]

The Pens dont need Zucker... They need Zuccerllo. Skill to play with Malkin and some grit too. He would do for Malkin what Kunitz did for Crosby.

I think he has the potential to be an extremely good player for us and would probably be a nice mix between Kessel's high end skill/playmaking abilities and his inconsistent game away from the puck. My concern is that Zucc will be 32 and only having career earns of ~26m (less actually when you consider escrow) means he's almost certainly looking to collect some sort of payday, which will likely result in someone giving him too much term or money.

 

[66-30-33]

I just want more fast 2 way players, so Zucker works for me. I like players hustling back after they made a mistake, or someone else did. I wont complain if we got Skinner somehow though, but I don't think we are on his list.

 

[Andy99]

If we want skill, give me Skinner. He and Rust flanking Geno would be great, imo. His recent struggles down the stretch could help us out this summer too when it comes to his asking price.

Would love Skinner or Panarin and both would kill it with Geno ...unfortunately I don’t think either wants to play in Pittsburgh...Skinner is reportedly working on a deal to stay in BUF where he’s close to family, and Panarin wants either the sun or the bright city lights and to schmooze with other Cossacks...c’est la vie

 

[AjaxTelamon]

Yeah thats where I am at too... Kessel is durable and typically productive. He has a history of upping his game come playoffs... whats more is when he is on, he doesn’t need a Malkin or Sid to be productive...

I don’t see a trade that replaces all of that within the timeframe of this window being opened and certainly not at that cap hit...

Maybe a three way deal where you get someone to retain on a guy i guess, but there aren’t any easy options and UFAs are rarely the answer

The best thing to try, and we haven't accomplished it yet this year, is putting Kessel (and Geno) in a position to succeed. When Schultz and Hags went out, it took away the two main things we need to support those guys. Putting Kessel with Brass for a stretch was terrible for Kessel, keeping in mind Brass was able to shut down anyone he played with, including Jake and Sid. Pearson did very little for Geno and Phil, and no LW was going to make up for the awful puck movement we were getting from the defense anyways.

We have the ingredients on the current roster to get a lot more out of Geno and Phil when we get Letang and Rust back. We also have a center in Bjugstad who hasn't been tried with Phil yet, and on paper that combo looks promising. If they put Rust with Sid, McCann could bring a lot of what Hags did but with more finish on LW.

We've got some options here we really need to try before we go dumping Kessel for picks/prospects and a cap dump coming the other way.

 

[Riptide]

The best thing to try, and we haven't accomplished it yet this year, is putting Kessel (and Geno) in a position to succeed. When Schultz and Hags went out, it took away the two main things we need to support those guys. Putting Kessel with Brass for a stretch was terrible for Kessel, keeping in mind Brass was able to shut down anyone he played with, including Jake and Sid. Pearson did very little for Geno and Phil, and no LW was going to make up for the awful puck movement we were getting from the defense anyways.

We have the ingredients on the current roster to get a lot more out of Geno and Phil when we get Letang and Rust back. We also have a center in Bjugstad who hasn't been tried with Phil yet, and on paper that combo looks promising. If they put Rust with Sid, McCann could bring a lot of what Hags did but with more finish on LW.

We've got some options here we really need to try before we go dumping Kessel for picks/prospects and a cap dump coming the other way.

Moving him is just going to be one of those moves that you can never take back. So it behooves us to try every signal damn thing possible to try and make it work. Because us with a decent Kessel is going to be a MUCH better team then pretty much any player we would be able to trade for with the assets we'd get for him.

 

[Peat]

Moving him is just going to be one of those moves that you can never take back. So it behooves us to try every signal damn thing possible to try and make it work. Because us with a decent Kessel is going to be a MUCH better team then pretty much any player we would be able to trade for with the assets we'd get for him.

He's been here for four years. We've tried pretty much everything possible. There's quite a few things that work... but no better than less expensive options. There's been a few killer things... but we've traded away what makes them work.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I don't know, man. Phil is playing some terrible hockey, he's an aging winger making a big chunk of money on a team with two aging superstar centers also making a big chunk of money.

It's not even entirely about his struggles, though they're just amplifying the problem. If we're going to move on from Phil, and I really think we should at least entertain that option, this is the summer to do so. If you hang on to him for fear of changing things and potentially making a mistake, you run the risk of another, more damning mistake that pretty much seals the deal on the Sid and Geno era, I think. You can't be left holding on to Phil once things go sour, he's an asset you have to move proactively as opposed to trying to solve the problems after the fact.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I don't know, man. Phil is playing some terrible hockey, he's an aging winger making a big chunk of money on a team with two aging superstar centers also making a big chunk of money.

It's not even entirely about his struggles, though they're just amplifying the problem. If we're going to move on from Phil, and I really think we should at least entertain that option, this is the summer to do so. If you hang on to him for fear of changing things and potentially making a mistake, you run the risk of another, more damning mistake that pretty much seals the deal on the Sid and Geno era, I think. You can't be left holding on to Phil once things go sour, he's an asset you have to move proactively as opposed to trying to solve the problems after the fact.

There are many, many players making less than $6.8M who would be better than Phil Kessel. Phil is, at best, an average even-strength player at this point. You should be able to get better than that for $6.8M. I'd take a mid-late 1st straight up. Maybe a GM falls in lust (Love? Rust?) with his pedigree, name recognition and lower salary and offers more.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

There are many, many players making less than $6.8M who would be better than Phil Kessel. Phil is, at best, an average even-strength player at this point. You should be able to get better than that for $6.8M. I'd take a mid-late 1st straight up. Maybe a GM falls in lust (Love? Rust?) with his pedigree, name recognition and lower salary and offers more.

I think our best bet is to find a team desperate for a scoring punch to put them over the top, or to keep them in the arms race out West. We're not going to get a massive return for the guy, but I think if we get enough space (with a Maatta trade as well, whom I would move in addition to Kessel), we can get creative.

The harsh reality is that this team is essentially operating with a nearly $7 million paperweight this season. Even if we end up with a downgrade in terms of highest potential, I'd much rather take a two-way guy like Zucker than Phil's all-or-nothing style.

Add in to all of the struggles regarding Phil, the fact that he's getting older, and this summer it's decision making time for JR. Either you hold on to the guy and pray he returns to form--which isn't out of the question--or you decide to go another direction and get a more hungry, younger player to go with Geno moving forward. Both options have potential to blow up in our faces, but I'd rather take action and mess up than stand pat, do nothing, and not even try.

 

[Tom Hanks]

I guess the thing with trading Phil is that he is a game breaker so any trade you’d have less of that effect but the team would probably be more stable in terms of giving up goals.

He is very selective when it comes to playing with that fire in the regular season. Playoffs he usually brings it.

I see this summer as good timing to move on IF we get a deal that works for us. Otherwise we keep him.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I think our best bet is to find a team desperate for a scoring punch to put them over the top, or to keep them in the arms race out West. We're not going to get a massive return for the guy, but I think if we get enough space (with a Maatta trade as well, whom I would move in addition to Kessel), we can get creative.

The harsh reality is that this team is essentially operating with a nearly $7 million paperweight this season. Even if we end up with a downgrade in terms of highest potential, I'd much rather take a two-way guy like Zucker than Phil's all-or-nothing style.

Add in to all of the struggles regarding Phil, the fact that he's getting older, and this summer it's decision making time for JR. Either you hold on to the guy and pray he returns to form--which isn't out of the question--or you decide to go another direction and get a more hungry, younger player to go with Geno moving forward. Both options have potential to blow up in our faces, but I'd rather take action and mess up than stand pat, do nothing, and not even try.

My working assumption has always been that the guy is divisive and has people who love him and hate him (like me). Some owner/GM who needs scoring or a big name may fall into the "love" category and give us something good. But again, a late 1st would be enough. Personally I'd even take a 3rd or something + the cap space but you have to think we could get a 1st or good prospect at least.

The point is that he's not a net-positive at even strength for us. And not what Malkin needs. Finally, his cliff is approaching fast; it may already be here.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

My working assumption has always been that the guy is divisive and has people who love him and hate him (like me). Some owner/GM who needs scoring or a big name may fall into the "love" category and give us something good. But again, a late 1st would be enough. Personally I'd even take a 3rd or something + the cap space but you have to think we could get a 1st or good prospect at least.

The point is that he's not a net-positive at even strength for us. And not what Malkin needs. Finally, his cliff is approaching fast; it may already be here.

He's always been a guy you take the bad in stride because of the good. The issue is that the bad is runnin' wild, Hulkamania style all over right now while the good is nowhere to be found.

If nothing else, he's certainly playing like he's made up his mind and thinks he's gone this summer.

 

[Riptide]

He's been here for four years. We've tried pretty much everything possible. There's quite a few things that work... but no better than less expensive options. There's been a few killer things... but we've traded away what makes them work.

I think there needs to be a massive massive asterisks on the first part here. Those less expensive options COULD be just as good, but it's far from a guarantee or they'd never be available. As for those killer things, we've also acquired some very good players while other's have taken some pretty significant steps over the past year or so.

I don't know, man. Phil is playing some terrible hockey, he's an aging winger making a big chunk of money on a team with two aging superstar centers also making a big chunk of money.

It's not even entirely about his struggles, though they're just amplifying the problem. If we're going to move on from Phil, and I really think we should at least entertain that option, this is the summer to do so. If you hang on to him for fear of changing things and potentially making a mistake, you run the risk of another, more damning mistake that pretty much seals the deal on the Sid and Geno era, I think. You can't be left holding on to Phil once things go sour, he's an asset you have to move proactively as opposed to trying to solve the problems after the fact.

Oh without a doubt. I think those of us who are hesitant are not so much saying "don't trade him", just that we don't want Rutherford to force something. I mean if you can trade him in a deal that at worse is fair value and doesn't leave the team worse off while having the potential (in the short-ish term) of being a home run, then you do it. But while I can only speak for myself, I think those of us who are extremely hesitant to move him do so out of a fear that that sort of deal is very unrealistic. And that instead of getting some deal that's meh at worst with potential to be great, we're going to get a lot of offers' of meh - aka the young player with potential that's not a A type prospect, a mid/late 1st and a roster player who makes 3-5m, and who isn't anything special.

Aka basically don't do what Doc is suggesting where you trade him for a late 1st or a 3rd+ to get cap space.

Both options have potential to blow up in our faces, but I'd rather take action and mess up than stand pat, do nothing, and not even try.

You f*** up a Kessel trade and you've really hurt our chances at another cup. Standing pat at the very least gives you more time to find the 'right' deal, vs 'any' deal. And no Zucker probably isn't a better option then Kessel.

There are many, many players making less than $6.8M who would be better than Phil Kessel. Phil is, at best, an average even-strength player at this point. You should be able to get better than that for $6.8M. I'd take a mid-late 1st straight up. Maybe a GM falls in lust (Love? Rust?) with his pedigree, name recognition and lower salary and offers more.

No one questions that. The issue is that A) few of those would actually be available for us to acquire and B) are almost certainly not on teams that Kessel would waive his NTC to go to (assuming he'd even be open to waiving/relaxing it at all).

Watch what some of the UFA's sign for this summer. I think you're going to get surprised by exactly how much these player's will sign for. As for what you'd take, that's rather irrelevant considering your extreme dislike for him. You might take a late 1st 1-1 for Kessel, but no one else in their right mind would, because even if you hate him you should still be able to recognize that he has more value then that. That and moving him for a late 1st would be Pejorative Slured - let alone even entertaining the idea of accepting a 3rd+.

But again, a late 1st would be enough. Personally I'd even take a 3rd or something + the cap space but you have to think we could get a 1st or good prospect at least.

The point is that he's not a net-positive at even strength for us. And not what Malkin needs. Finally, his cliff is approaching fast; it may already be here.

The stats say otherwise. And the 2nd bold is pure conjecture with little to back it up other than 1 struggling season - a struggling season where he's still a PPG player.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Zucker is a better option than this Kessel. I think this Kessel is the Kessel we're going to see far more likely than not from here on out, sadly.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Man Perron has 40pts in 48 games.