Salary Cap: Salary Cap + Roster building: "All of your Pittsburgh born players belong to us"

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I was calling for it to happen after the Caps series the most loudly here. Sometimes you need to be proactive and identify problems at certain time. It´s not too late for Phil to go, he could´ve go last year but I feel like this is still fine with him. Same with Hornqvist. The problem comes if we wait with them for too long.

As for Kessel. This team needs to be harder to play against. It was painful how soft and careless they were vs the Islanders and throughout the regular season as well. Phil is one of the main protagonists of this BS. This team absolutely needs some fresh concept.

Phil was always going to be a "get the most out of a few years" type of guy, I think. His inability or unwillingness to maintain a grip on his emotions and not let them dictate his play just drives coaches insane, and as we've seen, if he's not tearing it up offensively, he's a complete detriment to his line. It's time to move on, we got two Cups out of Phil but he's shifted from solution to problem quickly. Like you said, Phil's a guy you have to move a season too soon as opposed to waiting a season too late, because by then, he's an untradeable asset.

I'm conflicted when it comes to Hornqvist. I think he's definitely a problem and I do think he's going to get dramatically worse as age/injury catches up, but he still brings some things to the table that don't show up on the scoresheet. His ability to cause chaos around the net, get in the heads of goalies/defensemen, bring guys down low to create more space for the other forwards, his ability to screen goalies, and his fire are still there, and they have an impact for sure, but my rational side says that kind of stuff isn't worth paying $5.3 million a year for when the guy is scoring 4 goals (2 ES, 2 PP) over the final 45 games of the season. That's unacceptable production, and puts him in a class with a guy like Lucic for being an absolute albatross. Now, I think he'll be able to bounce back a bit, but I do think when Horny starts to decline (he has, imo), it will be a precipitous fall and those final two or three years of his deal will be absolutely miserable.

 

[Peat]

I highly doubt that's the case when it comes to Kessel. Unless you're talking about how much we'll miss certain aspects of his game. But trade wise? I don't think we're "underrating" his value as other teams see him. We'll get something decent in return, but it will be far less then what we paid for him.

I personally think we'll get roughly what we paid for him in terms of the value of the main pieces providing he's not using his list to try and prevent being traded. But that isn't all that big a return and it certainly isn't the Ekholm/Spurgeon some are hoping for - suspect that if those had been on the table for Kessel last year he'd already be moved, so don't see why that would have changed.



edit: p.s. On a tangent - but if Rutherford and the media en masse are no longer talking about it, I think Malkin trade ideas can go back on the scrap heap.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I still think that when we move Phil, our best direction to take is to get a mid-1st round pick and a strong prospect. We're never getting value in terms of a guy who is a roster player and can step in right away. You're not going to get Phil's replacement in a 1-for-1 deal. JR is going to have to get creative and go after things like picks/prospects to build a package to land someone like a Spurgeon, or a top-6 winger replacement. It's going to take multiple deals.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

The window is nearly closed.

If the Penguins had any sort of long term vision, they would start selling (Malkin, Letang, Kessel) now while these guys are worth something as opposed to becoming Chicago and watching your core wither away surrounded by turds.

This roster is beyond ****ed, and I say that without emotion - it’s pure fact. There is no “Kessel deal” that will return this team to glory. There are no more Rusts, Sheary’s in the pipeline.

Seems pretty goofy to suggest that at this stage. 30 to 40 point guys with good motors are hardly an impossible standard...we just arguably added a better one via trade with McCann, and players like Blueger, Hallander, and Bjorkqvist show that they have that potential, to say nothing of Bellerive, Almeida, Lafferty, Miletic etc.

Odds are that a couple of them will hit Rust/Sheary levels, if not better.

They need to gut half of the D group, they arguably need a 1b goalie, and the forward group has no chemistry outside of Crosby and Guenztel.

That's true, but easy enough to do if the GM can actually identify that as a problem.

As for needing a 1B goalie, here's a list of the best SV%s in the league for goalies who played at least 30 games:

Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

You'll notice our dirt cheap back-up at #17.

We’ve seen this story before. We are currently watching it play out in Chicago and Los Angeles. Accept where we are, and make sweeping changes to get younger, faster, and start the process of setting this team up for an older Crosby, and ultimately life after Crosby. The “All in for Sid” M.O was good for three cups... but continuing with that mindset at this point is setting the franchise up for failure long term...

Refusing to sell off all your core star players outside of Crosby isn't going "all-in", it's having a level head on your shoulders.

Look at Chicago and LA? How about look at San Jose and Boston.

 

[K Fleur]

I would love to have Karlsson as a Pen but that is a massive pipe dream.

 

[Slaaapshuter]

I would love to have Karlsson as a Pen but that is a massive pipe dream.

Unfortunately yes, I think the only chance we have of signing him basically is if all the other suitors are Canadian teams.

He's definitely going UFA, but think Sharks have a good chance of signing him if they have the cap.

 

[ownal]

We could still have a window if Crosby takes "Joe Thorton" money in his older years. Sharks have extended the window with this strategy.

 

[JTG]

We could still have a window if Crosby takes "Joe Thorton" money in his older years. Sharks have extended the window with this strategy.

Sid is pretty well locked up to the point Thornton is at now. With the deals these young guys are getting now, Sid's deal already looks good.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

As far as the Sid/Geno era goes, I would say the window is closed now. For all intents and purposes, the amount of moves that need to be made, and the GM that has to make them, put this team too far out of realistic contention.

Can it be opened? Sure, but JR is the guy at the helm, and he's got three years to fix two pairings on his blueline, and remove/replace two top-9, big money wingers. Simple enough on paper, but then you realize trades don't always work out. It took two years and a ton of assets to fix the hole left by Bonino's departure, and he was just a third line center. The moves we need to make are much more significant, by orders of magnitude, and we're running out of time. Geno's gone in three years, and Letang's deal is up as well, but whether or not he finishes his contract seems a lot more up in the air than it was a few years ago.

 

[Andy99]

The window is not closed...that’s silliness. Boston and SJ prove that. The GM just has to make the right moves around Sid and G to get younger, and it’s probably not going to be next year but the year after if he does that. Do I trust the GM? Not based on his recent comments and moves...first of all, he needs to assess the coaching staff and if they’ve been tuned out by most of the core, then move on from them...don’t let that be a reason you don’t succeed...second, go young, fast and good forecheckers...get rid of the D that are anchors...if he can’t see that’s JJ, the GM needs to go...holding on to Sully and JR may be what sinks the ship more than holding on to Letang and G

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

The window is not closed...that’s silliness. Boston and SJ prove that. The GM just has to make the right moves around Sid and G to get younger, and it’s probably not going to be next year but the year after if he does that. Do I trust the GM? Not based on his recent comments and moves...first of all, he needs to assess the coaching staff and if they’ve been tuned out by most of the core, then move on from them...don’t let that be a reason you don’t succeed...second, go young, fast and good forecheckers...get rid of the D that are anchors...if he can’t see that’s JJ, the GM needs to go...holding on to Sully and JR may be what sinks the ship more than holding on to Letang and G

I don't think it's silly to think that, realistically speaking, this core's window has closed. I mean, we just barely made the playoffs on the back of a juggernaut season from Sid, and phenomenal years from Jake, Letang and maybe most importantly, Murray. We then promptly got dismantled in embarrassing fashion in the first round.

Again, it can be fixed, and it's not a supremely complex task, but there are way too many factors in play, man. JR's a complete dunce, this team needs a stud winger for Geno, it needs a stud #2 blueliner to play with Schultz, it needs to remove and replace JJ, Maatta and Gudbranson, it needs to find a permanent RW for Sid and Jake. That's a lot of stuff that needs to happen first and foremost, and it needs to go well to boot--and we have three seasons to do it, and JR is the architect.

Not optimistic.

 

[billybudd]

As far as the Sid/Geno era goes, I would say the window is closed now. For all intents and purposes, the amount of moves that need to be made, and the GM that has to make them, put this team too far out of realistic contention.

Can it be opened? Sure, but JR is the guy at the helm, and he's got three years to fix two pairings on his blueline, and remove/replace two top-9, big money wingers. Simple enough on paper, but then you realize trades don't always work out. It took two years and a ton of assets to fix the hole left by Bonino's departure, and he was just a third line center. The moves we need to make are much more significant, by orders of magnitude, and we're running out of time. Geno's gone in three years, and Letang's deal is up as well, but whether or not he finishes his contract seems a lot more up in the air than it was a few years ago.

I think that's a little premature. It's not looking good right now, but we were in worse shape going into the 2015-16 season than we are right now. It looked hopeless, but it turns out all the Penguins neeeded was three trades of the addition-by-subtraction variety, a few different guys getting scratched and a couple call-ups. I can't map out a similar fix to this roster, exactly, but it's not impossible to think it can be done or that Rutherford has it in him to do it.

 

[Turin]

This playoffs should be exact proof that the window isn’t closed.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I don't think it's silly to think that, realistically speaking, this core's window has closed. I mean, we just barely made the playoffs on the back of a juggernaut season from Sid, and phenomenal years from Jake, Letang and maybe most importantly, Murray. We then promptly got dismantled in embarrassing fashion in the first round.

Again, it can be fixed, and it's not a supremely complex task, but there are way too many factors in play, man. JR's a complete dunce, this team needs a stud winger for Geno, it needs a stud #2 blueliner to play with Schultz, it needs to remove and replace JJ, Maatta and Gudbranson, it needs to find a permanent RW for Sid and Jake. That's a lot of stuff that needs to happen first and foremost, and it needs to go well to boot--and we have three seasons to do it, and JR is the architect.

Not optimistic.

Honestly, this is pretty defeatist. Half our problems would be solved if JR simply realized that JJ and Maatta suck ass and Sully realized that ZAR should never see a scoring line role.

The 2nd pair doesn't need a stud #2 blueliner with Schultz, it simply needs *NotMaattaJJ. f***ing Ian Cole made that pairing function, I don't understand why we'd need a miracle worker now, particularly when Pettersson looked capable of more this year at 22.

Geno doesn't need a stud winger, he simply needs a fast two-way winger in the Hagelin mold on his LW (we have a perfect fit for that role in-house, only the coach can't bear to put him anywhere but RW) and *NotMaattaJJ playing behind him. McCann was great with Sid and Jake this year, the problem was that they only played together in one playoff game.

Until these very obvious and very solvable issues are addressed, people ought to hold off the Chicken Little pronouncements. We're getting the easy stuff wrong. Our superstars aren't the problem, the shitty players that the org insists on putting in prominent roles are.

 

[ownal]

Kessel for Jarnrok/Ekholm
Get Rid of Gudbranson/Johnson and sign a #3 D.
Maatta traded for a cheaper #6 D on an ELC.
Go big game hunting for either Skinner/Duchene and Ferland.

Gentzel - Crosby - Bjugstad
Skinner - Malkin - Ferland
McCann - Jarnrock - Rust
Zar - TB - Johnson


Dumo - Letang
Ekholm - Schultz
Pettersson - x/Riikola

I could see a championship from this squad.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I think that's a little premature. It's not looking good right now, but we were in worse shape going into the 2015-16 season than we are right now. It looked hopeless, but it turns out all the Penguins neeeded was three trades of the addition-by-subtraction variety, a few different guys getting scratched and a couple call-ups. I can't map out a similar fix to this roster, exactly, but it's not impossible to think it can be done or that Rutherford has it in him to do it.

I understand that we've been here before, don't get me wrong, but in 2015-16 Sid and Geno were 27/28, not 32/33. That's a big, big difference, particularly when it comes to Geno. I know he's one season removed from a near 100pt performance, but Phil's one season removed from a 92pt performance and he was utter misery on skates for a huge portion of the season, and as potentially played himself out of town, all factors Phil-related considered. We also had Botterill, who I think was instrumental in building that team that went back to back. At the very least, it's shocking to see the complete shift in the approach this team has taken with regard to building the team after Botterill left. I think he had a far bigger hand in directing JR away from stupid moves and toward smart ones than people realize. There's just way too many significant moves that need to be made, they need to go right, and they need to be made by a guy who has been the epitome of a rudderless ship the past two seasons.

Again, I know it's not a literal impossibility, but I'd say it's probably 80-20 or 90-10 that we can't fix this and make another strong run before Geno's done in three years. It'd require the stars aligning as far as the moves are concerned, and a dramatic and complete about-face from JR with regard to his approach to building this team. He's building the Penguins to vie for Cups in 2003, not 2019.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

JJ played the 3rd most minutes on our blueline this year, and Maatta played the 4th most:

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?rep...eam.5&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,1&sort=timeOnIce

Think about how many problems stem from that fact alone. The 2nd pairing, Malkin, Kessel...you name it.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Honestly, this is pretty defeatist. Half our problems would be solved if JR simply realized that JJ and Maatta suck ass and Sully realized that ZAR should never see a scoring line role.

The 2nd pair doesn't need a stud #2 blueliner with Schultz, it simply needs *NotMaattaJJ. ****ing Ian Cole made that pairing function, I don't understand why we'd need a miracle worker now, particularly when Pettersson looked capable of more this year at 22.

Geno doesn't need a stud winger, he simply needs a fast two-way winger in the Hagelin mold on his LW (we have a perfect fit for that role in-house, only the coach can't bear to put him anywhere but RW) and *NotMaattaJJ playing behind him. McCann was great with Sid and Jake this year, the problem was that they only played together in one playoff game.

Until these very obvious and very solvable issues are addressed, people ought to hold off the Chicken Little pronouncements. We're getting the easy stuff wrong. Our superstars aren't the problem, the ****ty players that the org insists on putting in prominent roles are.

Ian Cole is on Colorado's top pairing. I don't think he's an elite guy, but to brush him off as "f***ing Ian Cole" is a bit odd to me. As for Geno, to say he doesn't need a stud winger is bonkers to me. He needs, more than ever, a guy who can drive production from the wing. A guy that's dramatically better than Kessel at ES and without the puck on his stick. It's a dire need, imo. McCann and Rust or McCann and Hornqvist, or whatever combo we can currently give him, is simply not good enough. Jake aside, I don't think we've got a legit scoring line winger on this team. At least not a guy who can drive production. McCann, Rust, even Hornqvist at this juncture--they're all third wheel guys who excel when they're not asked to produce big numbers, but they can play their respective styles.

We agree on the last part though. This organization is sabotaging itself, but the problem is not that the roster can't be fixed, it's that the organization doesn't see a problem.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Ian Cole is on Colorado's top pairing. I don't think he's an elite guy, but to brush him off as "****ing Ian Cole" is a bit odd to me. As for Geno, to say he doesn't need a stud winger is bonkers to me. He needs, more than ever, a guy who can drive production from the wing. A guy that's dramatically better than Kessel at ES and without the puck on his stick. It's a dire need, imo. McCann and Rust or McCann and Hornqvist, or whatever combo we can currently give him, is simply not good enough.

We agree on the last part though. This organization is sabotaging itself, but the problem is not that the roster can't be fixed, it's that the organization doesn't see a problem.

I'm not brushing him off, but he sure as hell isn't a "stud #2". I think Pettersson could comfortably fill that role.

And no, I don't believe Malkin needs a stud winger. He was playing with a garbage LW and a garbage 2nd pair behind him all year, as was Kessel. Show me a star who can flourish with JJ and Maatta getting them the puck and I'll show you a liar.

That these guys scored as much as they did with what they were given is a miracle in itself. Kessel finished 13th in RW scoring at ES: http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?rep...filter=gamesPlayed,gte,1&sort=evPoints,points.

Let's give these guys something to work with before declaring them dead in the water.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I'm not brushing him off, but he sure as hell isn't a "stud #2". I think Pettersson could comfortably fill that role.

And no, I don't believe he needs a stud winger. He was playing with a garbage LW and a garbage 2nd pair behind him all year, as was Kessel. Show me a star who can flourish with JJ and Maatta getting them the puck and I'll show you a liar.

That these guys scored as much as they did with what they were given is a miracle in itself.

Petts is not as good as Ian Cole yet. I get being excited about the kid, and I do think he'll be an impact player for us for years, but he's still pretty raw and looked like he wore down as the season came to a close and the playoffs began. To me, he should be given bottom pairing minutes as he continues to play through growing pains and develop at the NHL level.

Agree to disagree on the Geno front though. If Phil leaves, which he will for numerous reasons, we've got zero scoring wingers for Geno to play with. That's a colossal problem.

But again, we agree on the blueline. It's an absolute dumpster fire and has dramatic effect on our ability to pressure offensively and/or score. Too bad our GM sees it as the best blueline he's had since he got here.

 

[joeyjake5]

This currently constructed Pen's team is not good enough to compete for the cup next year. Lack of speed and grit are two factors. Going down to the NYI's without a fight is a perfect example of where the Pen's are in relation to the other teams. The pen's are right up against the cap. Changes have to be made and if it means changes to the core, so be it.

 

[Gurglesons]

Petts is not as good as Ian Cole yet. I get being excited about the kid, and I do think he'll be an impact player for us for years, but he's still pretty raw and looked like he wore down as the season came to a close and the playoffs began. To me, he should be given bottom pairing minutes as he continues to play through growing pains and develop at the NHL level.

Agree to disagree on the Geno front though. If Phil leaves, which he will for numerous reasons, we've got zero scoring wingers for Geno to play with. That's a colossal problem.

But again, we agree on the blueline. It's an absolute dumpster fire and has dramatic effect on our ability to pressure offensively and/or score. Too bad our GM sees it as the best blueline he's had since he got here.

Ian Cole would still be a problem here if he was making 4+ mil.

The issue is the comparable is Jack Johnson here so anyone would be better

 

[Turin]

If the D was say...

Dumoulin-Letang
Gardiner-Spurgeon
Pettersson-Ruhwedel

I think that window is wide open.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

If the D was say...

Dumoulin-Letang
Gardiner-Spurgeon
Pettersson-Ruhwedel

I think that window is wide open.

Absolutely, but that's a lot of moving parts (four blueliners out, two significant additions) and we still don't have a good make up for Geno's line with Phil (likely) leaving this summer. Again, I don't think you can discount the JR factor either. "Pushback", "best blueline he's ever had here", focus on bigger, heavy guys that don't have the ability to play a fast game... That's a huge factor and one that can't be overlooked simply because the rest of the hockey world--down to message board dummies like us--can see the approach this team has taken the last two years is akin to sprinting in the opposite direction from the rest of the league, namely Cup chasing teams.

 

[Gurglesons]

If the D was say...

Dumoulin-Letang
Gardiner-Spurgeon
Pettersson-Ruhwedel

I think that window is wide open.

I think Spurgeon can be Schultz and we’d be fine.