Salary Cap Discussion

[BattleBorn]

I told all of you this would be a problem for next year. Reaves and Holden were dumb deals by GMGM. I really don't see how anyone can be a fan of Reaves. There's so many players that can do what he does for a million dollars.

I've seen a euro female hockey writer that lives here fight with sinbin Ken and Granger about who should stay and who should go and I believe that she easily has more hockey knowledge than both of them who have only covered hockey for one year each.

I really don't think we've got major issues. Of the potential players to move, only one has an issue (Smith's 8 team NTC) and he's the one I'd least like to lose. Holden and Reaves can get moved as well, and we needed them this season, Holden at least.

The overpayments, and I'll agree that Reaves got extra, aren't huge mistakes. Don't forget we can also work with the Clarkson thing by sending the contract to some cap floor team or LTIR.

 

[GKG18]

At least now we don't have to listen to clowns who believed we would be able to sign Erik Karlsson. He would have added at least $2.5 million more to the cap than Stone. GMGM has a plan. It may hurt (as in losing a beloved player such as Pebbles), but he knows what needs to be done.

 

[CupInSIX]

At least now we don't have to listen to clowns who believed we would be able to sign Erik Karlsson. He would have added at least $2.5 million more to the cap than Stone. GMGM has a plan. It may hurt (as in losing a beloved player such as Pebbles), but he knows what needs to be done.

GMGM wanted Karlsson badly, so according to this logic he's a clown.

It didn't work out, they added 2 wingers to form a new top line and are paying 16.5m for them. I'm very happy with Stone over Karlsson.

 

[GKG18]

By 'clowns' I was referring to the fans who were clamoring for EK, not GMGM. I think his interest was not as high as advertised. If he has proven one thing it's that he is willing to do what it takes to get his man for better or worse. I am happy with Stone as well.

 

[BattleBorn]

Scenarios change constantly. EK made a lot of sense at the time and if that had deal gone down we likely weren't in on Stone.

It should go without saying, but everyone really needs to evaluate decisions made based on the info available and the circumstances at the time. For example, if we got Erik Karlsson last season I don't think someone can say missing out on Stone a year later would make the EK deal worse. Likewise, If EK was here, they'd make different moves to manage the cap than they will make now that Stone, Pacioretty, and Stastny are here.

If they didn't get/sign Stone, EK may have been in the plans if he hits free agency this July.

 

[Vegan Knight]

Yeah, clowns is harsh and false in most cases. Especially considering that top 4 RD is still our most glaring weakness.

Furthermore, if we got EK we probably only get one of Stone or Pacioretty. If this team had EK instead of Pacioretty they may be more balanced and a better team.

Your math is probably wrong too, no way EK gets or ever was going to get 12M. But I think that may have been narrative driven math.

 

[LadyStanley]

I really don't see how anyone can be a fan of Reaves. There's so many players that can do what he does for a million dollars.

He'll never be a superstar, but he fills a role on the team. And you need guys like him on the team.

He's what I would call a "glue" guy: someone who helps hold the team together.

First, he's got the cred to take a leadership position on the team.

Second, he's got the personality to help keep the mood light and break the tension. (Even Lozoff has to contend with his antics during pregame interviews and has taken to carrying an umbrella or wear a rain coat.)

Third, he's WILLING to drop the gloves to protect a teammate, right a wrong. And don't think this is a small thing. It's a HUGE thing. It's not every game, nor every situation, but there are times when you need to take justice into your own hand. He's good at it too, not taking stupid penalties.

Fourth, he's a decent player, not a good or great one. But his other qualities make up for it.



Putting a team together is a bit like a dating game where lots of factors go into finding a good mix of personalities and characteristics to make the team a unit.

 

[The Duck Knight]

At this point I'd say the priority needs to be keep the top 6 we have + Tuch. Trim some cap fat elsewhere. Start with Eakin/Holden/Miller and then move on to Haula if need be.

 

[Vegan Knight]

At this point I'd say the priority needs to be keep the top 6 we have + Tuch. Trim some cap fat elsewhere. Start with Eakin/Holden/Miller and then move on to Haula if need be.

I think we have Gusev and Glass to try to accommodate so I think a top six winger has to go between Smith, Marchessault or Pacioretty.

 

[GKG18]

Yeah, clowns is harsh and false in most cases. Especially considering that top 4 RD is still our most glaring weakness.

Furthermore, if we got EK we probably only get one of Stone or Pacioretty. If this team had EK instead of Pacioretty they may be more balanced and a better team.

Your math is probably wrong too, no way EK gets or ever was going to get 12M. But I think that may have been narrative driven math.

I'll allow that. But the market will bear the numbers out, I think.

 

[Vegan Knight]

I'll allow that. But the market will bear the numbers out, I think.

If we could sign him for around 8M I think that would be something we should look at but I think someone will might give him closer to 10M and that's not what we want for this team.

 

[Aurinko]

Unless there is some good chemistry in the playoffs with Haula in the 3rd line, I'm afraid he's the one getting traded in the summer. I base it on the fact that Eakin fits very well in the 3rd and 4th line role.

 

[theslatcher]

Unless there is some good chemistry in the playoffs with Haula in the 3rd line, I'm afraid he's the one getting traded in the summer. I base it on the fact that Eakin fits very well in the 3rd and 4th line role.

His cap is pretty minimal though so I doubt it.

 

[IceNeophyte]

Handle Clarkson, trade off Marchy, bring up Glass and let him finish his development here. Cap space issue solved. Marchy gets knocked around too much.

We're going to have to bring in some youth eventually, or we become the Kings. Glass, Hague, maybe Whitecloud.

 

[CupInSIX]

IMO it's best to not try and fix something that's not broken. The forward situation is fine for now, especially when Gusev and Glass are added.
The D could definitely use some tweaking, so they might as well shed salary while doing so.

 

[Perratrooper]

I have a trade proposal to offer that ties to helping Vegas with their current cap predicament. Also not sure where else to post them on your guys board, so sorry if this is the wrong place!

2019 draft:

To VGK:
Barrie (50% retained, 2.75mil one year left)
2019 third Avs

To Col:
Eakin (3.85mil one year left)
Haula (2.75 mil one yet left)
Miller (3.88mil three years left)
2019 first VGK

Cap savings Vegas: ~$7.73mil

The cap is projected to go up to $83 million and this will give you a bit of wiggle room given your current predicament.

Would also definitely be willing to do something around Karlsson and Eakin for Barrie, but I’m assuming that would be less desirable for you guys.

Please let me know if I’m out to lunch or if this close!

 

[BattleBorn]

I have a trade proposal to offer that ties to helping Vegas with their current cap predicament. Also not sure where else to post them on your guys board, so sorry if this is the wrong place!

2019 draft:

To VGK:
Barrie (50% retained, 2.75mil one year left)
2019 third Avs

To Col:
Eakin (3.85mil one year left)
Haula (2.75 mil one yet left)
Miller (3.88mil three years left)
2019 first VGK

Cap savings Vegas: ~$7.73mil

The cap is projected to go up to $83 million and this will give you a bit of wiggle room given your current predicament.

Would also definitely be willing to do something around Karlsson and Eakin for Barrie, but I’m assuming that would be less desirable for you guys.

Please let me know if I’m out to lunch or if this close!

I think you're overvaluing a half retained Barrie and a third rounder, or over estimating the cap crunch. While I would like another right handed dman, giving up one of the ones we've got to get one seems pointless. Plus, while we've got a few too many centers I don't see us giving up two of them, especially for some cap relief that can likely get handled just ditching Clarkson's hit either through trade or otherwise and a forward.

I also think our 2019 first rounder is completely off the table for most anything.

 

[Vegan Knight]

IMO it's best to not try and fix something that's not broken. The forward situation is fine for now, especially when Gusev and Glass are added.
The D could definitely use some tweaking, so they might as well shed salary while doing so.

Marchessault- Karlsson- Smith
Pacioretty- Stastny- Stone
Gusev- Haula- Tuch
Carrier- Bellemare- Reaves
Zykov, Carpenter

McNabb- Schmidt
Theodore- Miller
Hague- Whitecloud
Merrill, Engelland

Fleury
Subban

Trade Eakin, Holden and Clarkson.

I think this is the most expensive our forwards could get while keeping competitive defense.

 

[Perratrooper]

I think you're overvaluing a half retained Barrie and a third rounder, or over estimating the cap crunch. While I would like another right handed dman, giving up one of the ones we've got to get one seems pointless. Plus, while we've got a few too many centers I don't see us giving up two of them, especially for some cap relief that can likely get handled just ditching Clarkson's hit either through trade or otherwise and a forward.

I also think our 2019 first rounder is completely off the table for most anything.

Thank you for the well thought out reply. Let me preface this with: I’m currently home sick from work and have some free time on my hands haha.

My value being off is most likely due to a mixture of over valuing Barrie at 50% plus a third as well as the Vegas cap crunch.

The first being off the table is fair and something I’d have no problem working around, but obviously decent value would need to come back.

So first off I’ll dive into the value of Barrie a bit. Since 2014/15 Barrie is tied for 9th in defensive scoring with 244 points in 366 games giving him a ppg of 0.67. In this same period Colorado has been a playoff team once (last year) and has been the bottom of the league once. This obviously suggest that he’s done pretty well in terms of offense on some pretty poor teams while also being able to remain relatively healthy. Now it might not come as a shock that Barrie isn’t the best in his own zone, but he isn’t a black hole either in his own zone. He provides a good ability to break the puck out by either skating or passing it. Now a top 10 offensive dman at $2.75 mil for a full season allows for not only better players on the team for that year, but also cuts down on the cap of another team for a full year. A third is a third, not usesless, but far from ideal.

Looking into VGK cap situation for next year according to capfriendly Vegas has ~$82.375 ties up in cap space for next season with 6 more skaters needing to be signed. Most notably Karlsson who will likely want a slight raise. Now assuming Karlsson asks for ~$6mil and Clarksons cap hit is moved I’ll make the assumption Vegas will be sitting at $83 mil with 5 players to sign. We’ll assume two rookies are brought up (~$1.85mil) that still leaves three players including a backup goaltender to be signed. So Vegas would be sitting with approximately $85mil in cap with the salary cap projected to be $83mil according to sports net and Bettman. Even if the three players are offered $1mil Vegas would be approximately $5 mil over the cap.

Now there’s obviously room to trade players like Eakin for low or negative value to help with cap or trade a valuable asset for a less valuable one, but in my proposed trade you are still getting good value top 10 offensive dman for in my opinion replaceable assests.

Would you be interested in Barrie for a different package and if so what?

 

[The Duck Knight]

The only interest we'd have in Barrie is as a pure rental if we moved Miller. So something like a 2nd/prospect. There would be no reason for us to trade any more than that for a guy we can't afford to sign.

 

[BattleBorn]

Thank you for the well thought out reply. Let me preface this with: I’m currently home sick from work and have some free time on my hands haha.

My value being off is most likely due to a mixture of over valuing Barrie at 50% plus a third as well as the Vegas cap crunch.

The first being off the table is fair and something I’d have no problem working around, but obviously decent value would need to come back.

So first off I’ll dive into the value of Barrie a bit. Since 2014/15 Barrie is tied for 9th in defensive scoring with 244 points in 366 games giving him a ppg of 0.67. In this same period Colorado has been a playoff team once (last year) and has been the bottom of the league once. This obviously suggest that he’s done pretty well in terms of offense on some pretty poor teams while also being able to remain relatively healthy. Now it might not come as a shock that Barrie isn’t the best in his own zone, but he isn’t a black hole either in his own zone. He provides a good ability to break the puck out by either skating or passing it. Now a top 10 offensive dman at $2.75 mil for a full season allows for not only better players on the team for that year, but also cuts down on the cap of another team for a full year. A third is a third, not usesless, but far from ideal.

Looking into VGK cap situation for next year according to capfriendly Vegas has ~$82.375 ties up in cap space for next season with 6 more skaters needing to be signed. Most notably Karlsson who will likely want a slight raise. Now assuming Karlsson asks for ~$6mil and Clarksons cap hit is moved I’ll make the assumption Vegas will be sitting at $83 mil with 5 players to sign. We’ll assume two rookies are brought up (~$1.85mil) that still leaves three players including a backup goaltender to be signed. So Vegas would be sitting with approximately $85mil in cap with the salary cap projected to be $83mil according to sports net and Bettman. Even if the three players are offered $1mil Vegas would be approximately $5 mil over the cap.

Now there’s obviously room to trade players like Eakin for low or negative value to help with cap or trade a valuable asset for a less valuable one, but in my proposed trade you are still getting good value top 10 offensive dman for in my opinion replaceable assests.

Would you be interested in Barrie for a different package and if so what?

I think a lot depends on if we get Gusev over next season since he'll have an ELC and will fill our hole if we trade Haula.

Here's my prediction, which has Haula on LTIR to get rid of the cap hit and not predict a trade match.

Leschyshyn is Gusev minus a couple hundred grand.

So we're a million over with Gusev and need a depth forward to scratch, which could be Nosek, Carpenter, or someone we get back from the Haula trade.

While it's a crunch, I don't think it's a huge crunch. Could dump Reaves and save a million for a similar player, can move Smith instead of Haula.

Either way, as Duck Knight said, don't think we make that move for someone we can't re-sign.

 

[Perratrooper]

Why can’t you guys afford to sign Barrie? He’ll probably be asking for $7.5-8.5 mil (this is complete speculation) the cap will likely be going up again next season so les say 3mil is covered by that, Reaves, Holden and Merrill which is about $6.5 mil not to mention another $2.75 mil from Barrie turning over. So to approximate you’d have about $13 mil in cap space with some wiggle room in rough estimates.

 

[BattleBorn]

Why can’t you guys afford to sign Barrie? He’ll probably be asking for $7.5-8.5 mil (this is complete speculation) the cap will likely be going up again next season so les say 3mil is covered by that, Reaves, Holden and Merrill which is about $6.5 mil not to mention another $2.75 mil from Barrie turning over. So to approximate you’d have about $13 mil in cap space with some wiggle room in rough estimates.

The way I see it, we don't have the pipeline of new players to keep acquiring and signing good prime aged players, especially if it's costing draft picks to get them. We're around normal team draft pick levels in the next three drafts, but without the benefit of draft picks from 3-5 years ago coming to league age.

There's definitely cap space beyond next season, but that's either getting eaten up from paying our bottom line guys, getting new bottom six guys that can contribute, or getting new top 6 guys if the current top line becomes 3rd line-ish. Due to the structure of the expansion draft, we're going to get old quickly unless we figure out how to supplement our 50 contracts with kids currently between the ages of 20/21 and 26/27.

We're going to have to import some role playing forwards to supplement our current roster as they fall off and get older and we missed out on some 2018 first/early second talent. That's part of the reason I think the 1st rounders are off the table for the immediate future.

ETA: For clarification, we're currently the 5th oldest team in the league, and we've only got the pipeline we've gotten from the previous two drafts to supplement these current players as things happen. Want players from me while I represent VGK? Send us someone in the 20-23 range with high upside and 2019/2020 draft picks. Which is pretty much what every other team wants, I'm sure.

 

[KeithfromCanada]

GMGM wanted Karlsson badly, so according to this logic he's a clown.

It didn't work out, they added 2 wingers to form a new top line and are paying 16.5m for them. I'm very happy with Stone over Karlsson.

Karlsson is perhaps the best offensive d-man in a generation and one hell of a good team leader. That said, I always preferred Stone. There's just something about the boost of energy that the team gets from him that makes him unlike anyone else.

 

[Pirate Deadpool]

Why can’t you guys afford to sign Barrie? He’ll probably be asking for $7.5-8.5 mil (this is complete speculation) the cap will likely be going up again next season so les say 3mil is covered by that, Reaves, Holden and Merrill which is about $6.5 mil not to mention another $2.75 mil from Barrie turning over. So to approximate you’d have about $13 mil in cap space with some wiggle room in rough estimates.

I still follow the Avs since my first nhl game was Roy's 3rd home game as a friend is a habs fan and was in Vegas at the time and got me to do a road trip and ok I like TBoobs, but I don't like him as much as I used to. If VGK extended him to the max amount of years, I think that there's a good chance that he'd be a burden for at least 1/3 of the contract. Take off the 1st rounder and I still don't like it, but if there are no other trades to other teams to make more cap space, I think I'd be ok with it if the space is used to keep core guys minus Engelland who should retire or be a healthy scratch/7th dman for next season. Next season is the only season that we should be in deep trouble. We'll be fine after that season.

I think value goes to the Avs if they can extend the traded players as they really need more overall solid players and a goalie. They are already getting Jack Hughes so don't be greedy.

If Reaves was to drop the gloves to be that valuable enforcer that is sometimes needed he isn't earning his paycheck in that regard as he hasn't gotten into a scrap in a long time and he should've done it vs the flames. Puck possession is the one thing he does well, but that doesn't warrant his contract. Nothing about his game and numbers should have gotten him that much money. $1.5M is what he should have gotten AAV. If there really was a team out there with a better offer then they should have let him go. The same goes for Holden. I feel like GMGM could have picked up better and cheaper bottom line players or maybe given some prospects some real time in the regular season and see if they would be valuable and cheap players like Tuch and Theodore were for the team last year.