Sabres Name Terry Pegula Team President

[TheBarnIsElectric]

I am a Pegula fan. They've poured money, time, and energy into improving two organizations and the city. Hell, they also bought the Amerks so they've touched Rochester too.

I believe they care. About the teams and winning. They care about the history of the teams. They care about the people in the region.

Are they perfect and 100% successful in everything they do? Of course not. There are real flaws and there've been mistakes made, but on balance, they're way far in the good column for me.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion though. If you think they're money driven, cheap-skate fools, fine. Enjoy that.

My opinion is they're great, I'm grateful to them for all they've done, and without any information about the actual reasons for this particular move, I see no reason to change my opinion.

Go Bills. Go Sabres. Go Pegulas.

 

[joshjull]

It was announced Monday that Pegula Sports and Entertainment, the umbrella company that oversaw all of the family’s non-petroleum businesses, was dissolving. The Buffalo Bills will be handled by only Bills employees. The Sabres will be handled by only Sabres employees.

Except for Pegula serving as president and John Roth as the COO of both clubs.

“Terry is extremely excited about the Sabres,” Roth said. “He loves this team. He’s fired up. He’s investing his own money in this roster and the arena. I think you can tell by his actions how highly supportive he is of the organization.”

Roth said Pegula will pay for a new KeyBank Center roof, upgrade the acoustics and replace the video scoreboard.



………An unspoken aspect of this series of business moves is how decisively Terry Pegula and Roth have come to the conclusion Kim Pegula’s biggest business ideas have proven unviable. Unable to work after a debilitating cardiac arrest last year, her creations and closest allies continue to vanish from the company.

Kim Pegula was the driving force behind PSE’s creation.

 

[joshjull]

I wonder what, if anything, the dissolution means for the non-major teams

From that Tim Graham article …….

Other entities from the PSE portfolio, including the Buffalo Bandits and Rochester Knighthawks of the National Lacrosse League, the Rochester Americans of the American Hockey League and the Black River Entertainment, will essentially remain unchanged with their respective leadership still reporting to Roth

 

[HogtownSabresfan]

Sabres are not moving guys to even bring it up is just a waste of server space.

NHL would never allow it to happen.

NHL constitution says your territory is 50 miles around the outer edge of your existing territory. It doesn't speak to whether that territorial control extends through an international boundary. The Sabres could move to the Niagara region in the Ontario side -- which has a population base of close to 500,000 and higher per capita income -- and likely not need the league or the Leafs' permission. I doubt this will ever happen, but from what I've read, the agreement to keep the team in Buffalo has expired. I think there is little question that a team in Souther Ontario is much much more money. And would be far more successful selling tickets. Personally, I love going to Buffalo even though the border is unpredictable.

Cut those costs, Terry. It’s the only thing you’re good at.

Third last in the league in payroll. Maybe he saved $1 M from all these people. Keep telling yourself, that he doesn't pinch pennies. I wonder if he paid out vacation time for these people. Likely not if not legally required.

 

[MOGlLNY]

NHL constitution says your territory is 50 miles around the outer edge of your existing territory. It doesn't speak to whether that territorial control extends through an international boundary. The Sabres could move to the Niagara region in the Ontario side -- which has a population base of close to 500,000 and higher per capita income -- and likely not need the league or the Leafs' permission. I doubt this will ever happen, but from what I've read, the agreement to keep the team in Buffalo has expired. I think there is little question that a team in Souther Ontario is much much more money. And would be far more successful selling tickets. Personally, I love going to Buffalo even though the border is unpredictable.

Jesus Christ you are in full off season overthinking warped mode recently. For a variety of reasons the NHL would never do that. Most notably the dollar. If he doesn’t need the league or Leafs approval who is going to move them to Niagara? Pegula?

You are only thinking of this as a possibility because for some reason you want to think of Pegula as some supervillain, are a self hating Sabres fan and are playing Chicken Little at all times.

 

[HogtownSabresfan]

Jesus Christ you are in full off season overthinking warped mode recently. For a variety of reasons the NHL would never do that. Most notably the dollar.

You are only thinking of this as a possibility because for some reason you want to think of Pegula as some supervillain, are a self hating Sabres fan and are playing Chicken Little at all times.

I said doubt would happen. Did you actually read what I said? But the idea it can’t happen, is wrong. And the dollar? Huh? I pay about US$60 for seasons for blue line row 1 seats — amazing price. If you don’t think that seat can be sold for $100 Canadian at the very least, you’re wrong. In equivalent dollars, an Ontario team would easily bring in more gate revenue than in Buffalo. Per capita household income is much higher in Southern Ontario.
I would have rated the Sabres moving as almost zero when Pegula got the franchise. It’s close to that still but 12 years of his mismanagement has been horrible for a franchise that was run very well for a small market with a rabid fan base.

 

[brian_griffin]

Third last in the league in payroll. Maybe he saved $1 M from all these people. Keep telling yourself, that he doesn't pinch pennies. I wonder if he paid out vacation time for these people. Likely not if not legally required.

I find it hard to believe a miser so committed to minding every penny would agree to put massive sums of his own money into a new Bills stadium, execute repairs and improvements to Key Bank Center, etc.

Do those who hold the miserly view of Pegula feel those investments, and/or of that magnitude, would have been made by Tom Golisano?

It was announced Monday that Pegula Sports and Entertainment, the umbrella company that oversaw all of the family’s non-petroleum businesses, was dissolving. The Buffalo Bills will be handled by only Bills employees. The Sabres will be handled by only Sabres employees.

Except for Pegula serving as president and John Roth as the COO of both clubs.

“Terry is extremely excited about the Sabres,” Roth said. “He loves this team. He’s fired up. He’s investing his own money in this roster and the arena. I think you can tell by his actions how highly supportive he is of the organization.”

Roth said Pegula will pay for a new KeyBank Center roof, upgrade the acoustics and replace the video scoreboard.



………An unspoken aspect of this series of business moves is how decisively Terry Pegula and Roth have come to the conclusion Kim Pegula’s biggest business ideas have proven unviable. Unable to work after a debilitating cardiac arrest last year, her creations and closest allies continue to vanish from the company.

Kim Pegula was the driving force behind PSE’s creation.

1. I buy this take completely.
2. What was Kim's vision? Was PSE intended to be akin to Fenway SE, or MSG, or Jerry Jones? Or more of an agent group like Scott Boras? Or something in the Tennis arena / Florida focused? Or simply a holding company for the individual entities (it seems that answer is no)?
3. What were her ideas, large and small? One Buffalo? What else?
4. What were the biggest ideas which proved unviable?
5. Are we surprised? (I'm not, and that's not necessarily a knock on her, just a reality that ideas fail all the time, and good ideas don't necessarily last either, or they can fail to be nourished and executed correctly. e.g., Kodak invented the first digital camera in 1975, but allegedly neglected to pursue it because of the success of their film & film camera businesses.)

 

[HogtownSabresfan]

I find it hard to believe a miser so committed to minding every penny would agree to put massive sums of his own money into a new Bills stadium, execute repairs and improvements to Key Bank Center, etc.

Do those who hold the miserly view of Pegula feel those investments, and/or of that magnitude, would have been made by Tom Golisano?


1. I buy this take completely.
2. What was Kim's vision? Was PSE intended to be akin to Fenway SE, or MSG, or Jerry Jones? Or more of an agent group like Scott Boras? Or something in the Tennis arena / Florida focused? Or simply a holding company for the individual entities (it seems that answer is no)?
3. What were her ideas, large and small? One Buffalo? What else?
4. What were the biggest ideas which proved unviable?
5. Are we surprised? (I'm not, and that's not necessarily a knock on her, just a reality that ideas fail all the time, and good ideas don't necessarily last either, or they can fail to be nourished and executed correctly. e.g., Kodak invented the first digital camera in 1975, but allegedly neglected to pursue it because of the success of their film & film camera businesses.)

His latest stadium deal has massive amounts of state money — about $850 million. The hilarious part is Pegula had to contractually agree to cover overruns to get the government money for the project which is $300 m over already with the meter running. He’ll dig another well.

 

[Zman5778]

It was announced Monday that Pegula Sports and Entertainment, the umbrella company that oversaw all of the family’s non-petroleum businesses, was dissolving. The Buffalo Bills will be handled by only Bills employees. The Sabres will be handled by only Sabres employees.

Except for Pegula serving as president and John Roth as the COO of both clubs.

“Terry is extremely excited about the Sabres,” Roth said. “He loves this team. He’s fired up. He’s investing his own money in this roster and the arena. I think you can tell by his actions how highly supportive he is of the organization.”

Roth said Pegula will pay for a new KeyBank Center roof, upgrade the acoustics and replace the video scoreboard.



………An unspoken aspect of this series of business moves is how decisively Terry Pegula and Roth have come to the conclusion Kim Pegula’s biggest business ideas have proven unviable. Unable to work after a debilitating cardiac arrest last year, her creations and closest allies continue to vanish from the company.

Kim Pegula was the driving force behind PSE’s creation.

Also from this article that I think is worth stressing:

"Nevertheless, those Sabres-are-for-sale rumors spiked again Monday. While the chances of that being true are close to nil according to team sources, that won’t stop the speculation from being revived today."

I trust Graham's sources that Terry isn't looking to sell the team.

 

[Tijuana Donkey Show]

Also from this article that I think is worth stressing:

"Nevertheless, those Sabres-are-for-sale rumors spiked again Monday. While the chances of that being true are close to nil according to team sources, that won’t stop the speculation from being revived today."

I trust Graham's sources that Terry isn't looking to sell the team.

I agree. I think that is where the reality is.

But given how absolutely terrible the team has been and the history this city has with the idea of either franchise leaving, it will always be an itch that needs, and to a certain extent deserves to be scratched until the team finds more stability.

As long as the Sabres continue to flounder with the bare minimum cap I get the speculation.

 

[Zman5778]

As long as the Sabres continue to flounder with the bare minimum cap I get the speculation.

I'm not going to worry about Terry going to the cap/spending until we start hearing serious rumors that Dahlin doesn't want to sign long-term here.

If he doesn't want to shell out the cash needed to retain Dahlin long-term, there's a problem.

 

[joshjull]

I agree. I think that is where the reality is.

But given how absolutely terrible the team has been and the history this city has with the idea of either franchise leaving, it will always be an itch that needs, and to a certain extent deserves to be scratched until the team finds more stability.

As long as the Sabres continue to flounder with the bare minimum cap I get the speculation.

The irony of that statement is that when they were spending to the max is when they were floundering. Culminating in the shit show that was the Covid shortened season.

Now they have a plan that has been moving in a positive direction. Sad as it is, last season was the most points they’ve had since 10-11 season.

 

[boots electric]

i understand people's frustrations with terry and what's happened with the sabres, and it's largely justified. but for better or worse, he's a hockey nut. penn state's hockey program was created and is operated almost exclusively due to the funding of tpegs. i think he's absolutely enjoyed the success of the bills the last few years, but i'd bet dollars to donuts he would get far more personal satisfaction from a stanley cup than he would a lombardi trophy. i would be completely shocked if he sold the team.

 

[Nikolajs Sillers]

Is he any good? Somebody knows who he is?

 

[Tijuana Donkey Show]

The irony of that statement is that when they were spending to the max is when they were floundering. Culminating in the shit show that was the Covid shortened season.

Now they have a plan that has been moving in a positive direction. Sad as it is, last season was the most points they’ve had since 10-11 season.

Oh I agree. I like the current direction. I also think the current low spending is a little by design as they sign their own going forward. I expect the Sabres to make a jump/drop over the next season or two in terms of cap space.

 

[5 Minute Major]

I said doubt would happen. Did you actually read what I said? But the idea it can’t happen, is wrong. And the dollar? Huh? I pay about US$60 for seasons for blue line row 1 seats — amazing price. If you don’t think that seat can be sold for $100 Canadian at the very least, you’re wrong. In equivalent dollars, an Ontario team would easily bring in more gate revenue than in Buffalo. Per capita household income is much higher in Southern Ontario.
I would have rated the Sabres moving as almost zero when Pegula got the franchise. It’s close to that still but 12 years of his mismanagement has been horrible for a franchise that was run very well for a small market with a rabid fan base.

I’m sure he, and others, did read the absolute garbage that you posted.

 

[HOOats]

I find it hard to believe a miser so committed to minding every penny would agree to put massive sums of his own money into a new Bills stadium, execute repairs and improvements to Key Bank Center, etc.

Do those who hold the miserly view of Pegula feel those investments, and/or of that magnitude, would have been made by Tom Golisano?

I don't think the Pegulas should be celebrated for investing capital (and getting the public to match) into a massively profitable asset as if it's some sort of charitable donation. NFL team values are doubling every decade, the least owners can do is invest some of that value back into the supposedly valuable asset itself.

i understand people's frustrations with terry and what's happened with the sabres, and it's largely justified. but for better or worse, he's a hockey nut. penn state's hockey program was created and is operated almost exclusively due to the funding of tpegs. i think he's absolutely enjoyed the success of the bills the last few years, but i'd bet dollars to donuts he would get far more personal satisfaction from a stanley cup than he would a lombardi trophy. i would be completely shocked if he sold the team.

I've asked before and I'm still curious: anyone know how many games he's been to in the last five seasons? I don't think it's many. If I were a 70 year old who purchased my apparent lifelong dream toy, I know I'd be at more than a game or two per year. I'd love to chat him up about the league and players right now because I don't think he's a hockey nut in the way we are, at all. I think he's a wealthy dullard guy who got very, very lucky in life.

 

[HogtownSabresfan]

I’m sure he, and others, did read the absolute garbage that you posted.

Whatever. Pegula is a genius and the Sabres are powerhouse franchise in the strongest market in the NHL. Does that make you happy? I love the Sabres playing in Buffalo. Going to games in the city is special. It’s an amazing place for hockey. Terry Pegula has really tested a very loyal, albeit small, hockey market for 12 years. The guy spent like a lunatic on bad stuff and now looks like he has his hands pack in his pocket. He locks down Dahlin and Power for seven years and it will go a long way to believing in him.

The proof is in the pudding. I would say the next 12-24 months Pegula will be key. Not spending last year and staying below cap this year is annoying. He locks down his two amazing d men and i probably don’t care much.

And before you give me crap, I’ve spent $5 K on this team every year for a decade.

 

[drew5580]

Also from this article that I think is worth stressing:

"Nevertheless, those Sabres-are-for-sale rumors spiked again Monday. While the chances of that being true are close to nil according to team sources, that won’t stop the speculation from being revived today."

I trust Graham's sources that Terry isn't looking to sell the team.

Far from nil

 

[BuffaloGooner]

Far from nil

Tim Graham is the best investigative journalist in this city.

 

[Gras]

I don't think the Pegulas should be celebrated for investing capital (and getting the public to match) into a massively profitable asset as if it's some sort of charitable donation. NFL team values are doubling every decade, the least owners can do is invest some of that value back into the supposedly valuable asset itself.

I've asked before and I'm still curious: anyone know how many games he's been to in the last five seasons? I don't think it's many. If I were a 70 year old who purchased my apparent lifelong dream toy, I know I'd be at more than a game or two per year. I'd love to chat him up about the league and players right now because I don't think he's a hockey nut in the way we are, at all. I think he's a wealthy dullard guy who got very, very lucky in life.

Historically sports stadiums never live up to the promised revenue numbers that help get them the public funding in the first place and generally are a net loss to the taxpayers in the area.

If TPegs is living in FL full time, plus you had the two Covid seasons with restrictions plus the health issues with Kim so you can't really fault him for not making many games.

 

[brian_griffin]

I don't think the Pegulas should be celebrated for investing capital (and getting the public to match) into a massively profitable asset as if it's some sort of charitable donation. NFL team values are doubling every decade, the least owners can do is invest some of that value back into the supposedly valuable asset itself.

I've asked before and I'm still curious: anyone know how many games he's been to in the last five seasons? I don't think it's many. If I were a 70 year old who purchased my apparent lifelong dream toy, I know I'd be at more than a game or two per year. I'd love to chat him up about the league and players right now because I don't think he's a hockey nut in the way we are, at all. I think he's a wealthy dullard guy who got very, very lucky in life.

I'm not arguing Pegulas should be celebrated. And all (or nearly all) such deals involve public financing. Teams intentionally threaten / strong-arm / leverage the municipalities and States, and the municipalities and States willingly go along as it's a largely legal way for them to divert taxpayer dollars into the pockets of campaign contributors (contractors on the stadium projects), who then (from the profits, after payroll and expenses) can kick a portion of that that back to the politicians.

Massively profitable asset is subjective. Taking Pegula's $1.4B purchase of the Bills (now worth $4B - more on that later), with a recent operating income of $80-100M, that's equivalent to an annual stock dividend of 5.7-7% if Pegula instead bought $1.4B worth of a dividend-paying stock. The appreciation in franchise value is not profit until the franchise is sold. I understand your point about "the least the owners can do", but of course the owners are not obligated to do so - which is my point - and it's why it essentially never happens in manufacturing industry to rebuild (vs. the more economical repair) an aging factory unless there is a new product / business to fill it, or significant tax breaks / subsidies for the new re-capitalization of the building itself. I'm confident the costs, or at least Pegula's personal costs, of the new stadium will be largely if not wholly offset by increased revenue from PSL's and/or higher ticket prices, unless the contracts for the public financing portion specify the increased revenue must first be used to offset the taxpayer-funded portion of the deal.

===========
I think you second paragraph has interesting questions. Lastly, would that we all were such dullards, or so lucky in life. (I say that aligned with your blunt assessment, not in blind admiration of Pegula.)

 

[HOOats]

Historically sports stadiums never live up to the promised revenue numbers that help get them the public funding in the first place and generally are a net loss to the taxpayers in the area.

If TPegs is living in FL full time, plus you had the two Covid seasons with restrictions plus the health issues with Kim so you can't really fault him for not making many games.

Well. Living in Florida 51% of the time is his choice to put lifestyle/wealth over everything else, so no credit/respect there. Two covid seasons sure, which is why I asked about the last five. Also I imagine owners could have had special access to watch their teams during that time. Kim's health issues arose in June 2022, so that only covers last season.

He has been relatively invisible as an owner, and his "fandom" is entirely uninspiring and more and more appears cover for plain, cold business (which is why I'm paying attention to the "close to" part in "close to nil chance he sells the team.")

I'm not arguing Pegulas should be celebrated. And all (or nearly all) such deals involve public financing. Teams intentionally threaten / strong-arm / leverage the municipalities and States, and the municipalities and States willingly go along as it's a largely legal way for them to divert taxpayer dollars into the pockets of campaign contributors (contractors on the stadium projects), who then (from the profits, after payroll and expenses) can kick a portion of that that back to the politicians.

Massively profitable asset is subjective. Taking Pegula's $1.4B purchase of the Bills (now worth $4B - more on that later), with a recent operating income of $80-100M, that's equivalent to an annual stock dividend of 5.7-7% if Pegula instead bought $1.4B worth of a dividend-paying stock. The appreciation in franchise value is not profit until the franchise is sold. I understand your point about "the least the owners can do", but of course the owners are not obligated to do so - which is my point - and it's why it essentially never happens in manufacturing industry to rebuild (vs. the more economical repair) an aging factory unless there is a new product / business to fill it, or significant tax breaks / subsidies for the new re-capitalization of the building itself. I'm confident the costs, or at least Pegula's personal costs, of the new stadium will be largely if not wholly offset by increased revenue from PSL's and/or higher ticket prices, unless the contracts for the public financing portion specify the increased revenue must first be used to offset the taxpayer-funded portion of the deal.

===========
I think you second paragraph has interesting questions. Lastly, would that we all were such dullards, or so lucky in life. (I say that aligned with your blunt assessment, not in blind admiration of Pegula.)

Well-thought out stuff.

I say massively profitable because there are few businesses available that someone can park billions of dollars in, become the sole controller of, linked to such a strong brand, with a guarantee of no new competition/dilution, and unquestioned potential income/appreciation. I do think an annual dividend of 6-7% on $1.4 billion with zero risk of underperformance is an investment that most everyone would be interested in. And the NFL is a secure enough vessel that while yes, there's no profit until a capital event, there's also no chance that the $4 billion valuation disappears or even decreases. If it did, it would be because of something like WW3 and we'd all have much larger things to worry about than whether the cash in a fracking mobster's pocket is real or virtual.

Do you know whether NFL owners can borrow against the value of their franchise to free up capital to invest elsewhere? Or is selling a portion to a minority owner at the current valuation the only way to unlock funds? I could see the NFL being pretty strict on that type of transaction.

Your factory example is interesting. The main difference I see is that unlike independent factory owners, NFL owners are "obligated" to build in the sense that they are required to provide or arrange a suitable venue for their team to host NFL games in, at the behest of the other 31 franchises they profit-share with. The Bills have already done the "more economical repair" twice over and are only building now because they have exhausted that avenue. As you said, like many businesses with significant infrastructure, teams facing a major capital project will often look to sell or relocate, with the result usually being new subsidies that quiet those options.

And I say it's "the least they can do" because I agree, the Pegula's will likely recoup all of their own stadium expenditure within a couple years (while also, more importantly, renewing their "right" to be a part of the NFL cabal of guaranteed profits/appreciation for another 50 years).

 

[HogtownSabresfan]

Tim Graham is the best investigative journalist in this city.

C’mon, nobody rewrites press releases like that Buffalo News columnist whose name escapes me.

 

[brian_griffin]

Well. Living in Florida 51% of the time is his choice to put lifestyle/wealth over everything else, so no credit/respect there. Two covid seasons sure, which is why I asked about the last five. Also I imagine owners could have had special access to watch their teams during that time. Kim's health issues arose in June 2022, so that only covers last season.

He has been relatively invisible as an owner, and his "fandom" is entirely uninspiring and more and more appears cover for plain, cold business (which is why I'm paying attention to the "close to" part in "close to nil chance he sells the team.")

Well-thought out stuff.

I say massively profitable because there are few businesses available that someone can park billions of dollars in, become the sole controller of, linked to such a strong brand, with a guarantee of no new competition/dilution, and unquestioned potential income/appreciation. I do think an annual dividend of 6-7% on $1.4 billion with zero risk of underperformance is an investment that most everyone would be interested in. And the NFL is a secure enough vessel that while yes, there's no profit until a capital event, there's also no chance that the $4 billion valuation disappears or even decreases. If it did, it would be because of something like WW3 and we'd all have much larger things to worry about than whether the cash in a fracking mobster's pocket is real or virtual.

Do you know whether NFL owners can borrow against the value of their franchise to free up capital to invest elsewhere? Or is selling a portion to a minority owner at the current valuation the only way to unlock funds? I could see the NFL being pretty strict on that type of transaction.

Your factory example is interesting. The main difference I see is that unlike independent factory owners, NFL owners are "obligated" to build in the sense that they are required to provide or arrange a suitable venue for their team to host NFL games in, at the behest of the other 31 franchises they profit-share with. The Bills have already done the "more economical repair" twice over and are only building now because they have exhausted that avenue. As you said, like many businesses with significant infrastructure, teams facing a major capital project will often look to sell or relocate, with the result usually being new subsidies that quiet those options.

And I say it's "the least they can do" because I agree, the Pegula's will likely recoup all of their own stadium expenditure within a couple years (while also, more importantly, renewing their "right" to be a part of the NFL cabal of guaranteed profits/appreciation for another 50 years).

(No disagreement on the above from me.)

Re: borrowing against value of the franchise - I don't know.
What I do know is common is for certain wealthy people around the world to intentionally bid up and buy real estate in high-value / high-demand markets (Upper East side Manhattan, exclusive coastal locales, I'm sure Dubai and similar foreign countries, Tokyo, French Mediterranean, etc). The banks won't deny the assessed valuation from the bid prices. Then, the buyers take a loan on the valuation and put the cash into shady activities - drug trafficking, Epstein-like enclaves, other black-market ventures, etc., with the proceeds going back to pay down the mortgage on the real estate. A legal form of money laundering. I am not, in any way, saying Pegulas would do such thing, as it is antithetical to their stated and lived values. What I am saying is the NFL would need to be wary of such a potential risk. I also don't know what, if any, restrictions the NFL poses on borrowing against franchise valuation as a condition of maintaining their anti-trust exemption. Your phrase cabal (or cartel) is apt.

Lastly, to keep this on topic, I don't think this dissolution of PSE tells us anything good or bad about Kim P.'s health prospects. It would be standard for any of us who had survived such a health episode to "clean up" our affairs such that life is simpler and the ability to focus on resorted priorities is paramount.