TBN: Sabres Mailbag: Will Jason Botterill make a significant trade?

[Icicle]

Have we circled back to why Ristolainen wasn’t traded for Kadri? lol

 

[Fjordy]

Botterill sucks

 

[Rowley Birkin]

A GM can prefer younger players under team control (don't most?) but that doesn't mean every move has to be for those players. If you can't get the players you want and still have holes to fill, I don't mind the cheap route and acquiring pending UFAs for next to nothing.

I agree with you about Ristolainen. I didn't want to trade him before, and now he's showing many armchair GMs why. Fun times would be to re-post all the "Risto for garbage", "addition by subtraction" posts. It would be ten pages of proof why posters aren't as smart as they portray themselves around here.

Hutton isn't ruining this team's season. They have other problems, and Krueger has limited his starts in favor of another player (Ullmark) that fans wanted to ship out for pennies back in Oct-Nov.

As for Miller, Botterill traded for him first. He didn't have Jokiharju and Ristolainen was grumbling. The trade itself wasn't bad - it certainly filled a need at the time, and the Jokiharju trade has to happen under any circumstance, despite the Miller trade. Botterill hasn't found a better remedy for the RHD logjam since though, and that probably chalks up to cap issues around the league. He might want to save Miller for a bigger trade in the summer (the kind that gets the player he wants, not the cheap route), if he indeed wants to keep Risto and Montour (which he should).

I'm sure relative in-action around the TDL, other than trading a few pending UFAs, will further infuriate fans. Next summer is the litmus test for me. Intentional or not, specifically waiting for that time period or simply waiting on other GMs to be more flexible, next summer is shaping up to be the time for Botterill to make big moves. Obviously he can't go into next season with no significant upgrades at FW, and the organization can't afford trading away 1st rd picks either.

Refreshing to see such a sensible, logical post. It's a rarity on this forum these days.

So much easier to go the 'omgz!!111 Botts suxxx' route I guess....

Well done Sir.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

Refreshing to see such a sensible, logical post. It's a rarity on this forum these days.

So much easier to go the 'omgz!!111 Botts suxxx' route I guess....

Well done Sir.

'Preciate that, but it's worth increasingly less time to post here. I have a list of about 10-15 posters that could make their own forum that would be a lot more worthwhile.

 

[Rowley Birkin]

The desired path was to get forward help, particularly a middle 6 center.

Botts could have done that by trading for Haula instead of Miller. Risto wouldn’t have to get traded and Miller wouldn’t have to sit because he wouldn’t be here.

It’s amazing how much the better the offseason would have looked with that one simple change.

What's amazing is the failiure to acknowledge that the Joker trade hadn't happened at that point while there was white hot speculation Risto had requested a trade & was about to be shipped out.

Thankfully the former happened while the latter didn't.

I didn't actually like the Miller acquisition in terms of the actual player... albeit the value was still great. But it was a trade which made all the sense in the world at the time.

The outcome of the Vesey deal was predicted by most... But even that was a very low risk move given what was given up & the term on Veseys contract. Would have been nice to get one of those other guys instead but you can't trade for everyone.

 

[Jame]

What's amazing is the failiure to acknowledge that the Joker trade hadn't happened at that point while there was white hot speculation Risto had requested a trade & was about to be shipped out.

Thankfully the former happened while the latter didn't.

I didn't actually like the Miller acquisition in terms of the actual player... albeit the value was still great. But it was a trade which made all the sense in the world at the time.

The outcome of the Vesey deal was predicted by most... But even that was a very low risk move given what was given up & the term on Veseys contract. Would have been nice to get one of those other guys instead but you can't trade for everyone.

when is trading a 2nd for a 3rd pair defensemen with a dog shit defensive game “great value”?

 

[Icicle]

What's amazing is the failiure to acknowledge that the Joker trade hadn't happened at that point while there was white hot speculation Risto had requested a trade & was about to be shipped out.

Thankfully the former happened while the latter didn't.

I didn't actually like the Miller acquisition in terms of the actual player... albeit the value was still great. But it was a trade which made all the sense in the world at the time.

The outcome of the Vesey deal was predicted by most... But even that was a very low risk move given what was given up & the term on Veseys contract. Would have been nice to get one of those other guys instead but you can't trade for everyone.

Botterill and Krueger in every single interview over the summer were worried about not having enough defenseman to start the season, and then in pre-season they had unexpected injuries. Yet Botterill plugged that hole, which was more important than 2C in priority, in excess, and hit home runs with his gambles and turned it into a strength.

This is what a good GM does in an off-season. Given the cap, et. al. he had to choose one hole to stuff and one to patch and he chose defense first and patched the center position.

People talk like Botterill won't make moves, but he did multiple to fix our defense with both prospects and NHL caliber players. So much so the raging fans take it for granted now, which I find hilarious. It was so easy to come into this season having to depend on Bogosian to be healthy to keep Nelson out of the daily line-up. Instead we have all of our defenseman except Bogosian playing better than they were before, except Miller who was the new guy struggling to play without a dedicated partner (hard thing to scout). We actually turned Scandella into a positive asset! Heroics. The type of things not a single stats guy would've ever considered possible given how Scandella looked in their metrics.

 

[Jim Bob]

Botterill and Krueger in every single interview over the summer were worried about not having enough defenseman to start the season, and then in pre-season they had unexpected injuries. Yet Botterill plugged that hole, which was more important than 2C in priority, in excess, and hit home runs with his gambles and turned it into a strength.

This is what a good GM does in an off-season. Given the cap, et. al. he had to choose one hole to stuff and one to patch and he chose defense first and patched the center position.

People talk like Botterill won't make moves, but he did multiple to fix our defense with both prospects and NHL caliber players. So much so the raging fans take it for granted now, which I find hilarious. It was so easy to come into this season having to depend on Bogosian to be healthy to keep Nelson out of the daily line-up

The Miller trade was a home run?

He gave up a 2nd and a 5th for a guy that has been either a healthy scratch or a non-factor for most of this season.

Your definition of a home run and mine are quite different.

Certainly the Nylander for Joker trade was a home run.

The Miller trade looks like a weak ground out to third.

 

[Icicle]

The Miller trade was a home run?

He gave up a 2nd and a 5th for a guy that has been either a healthy scratch or a non-factor for most of this season.

Your definition of a home run and mine are quite different.

Certainly the Nylander for Joker trade was a home run.

The Miller trade looks like a weak ground out to third.

I was referring to the Joker trade, pardon the pre-coffee lack of context

 

[OkimLom]

Botterill and Krueger in every single interview over the summer were worried about not having enough defenseman to start the season, and then in pre-season they had unexpected injuries. Yet Botterill plugged that hole, which was more important than 2C in priority, in excess, and hit home runs with his gambles and turned it into a strength.

Bogosian had his surgery in April. Pilut had his in May. Their timelines were well aware of way before preseason. Montour went out with a hand injury in the preseason, to which Botterill made statements he's happy to go through the season calling Rochester guys up. During the offseason he grabbed Joker, so he had a crowded RD PRIOR to Montour going out.

This is what a good GM does in an off-season. Given the cap, et. al. he had to choose one hole to stuff and one to patch and he chose defense first and patched the center position.

Given the cap situation that HE CREATED. Even with that, he constructed a roster that was bloated in a position while struggling to receive consistent secondary scoring from our forwards, which in turned pissed off players due to limited playing time. His cap work has been atrocious.

People talk like Botterill won't make moves, but he did multiple to fix our defense with both prospects and NHL caliber players. So much so the raging fans take it for granted now, which I find hilarious. It was so easy to come into this season having to depend on Bogosian to be healthy to keep Nelson out of the daily line-up. Instead we have all of our defenseman except Bogosian playing better than they were before, except Miller who was the new guy struggling to play without a dedicated partner (hard thing to scout). We actually turned Scandella into a positive asset! Heroics. The type of things not a single stats guy would've ever considered possible given how Scandella looked in their metrics.

A GM's job is never done. It's not just about how you construct your team during the offseason. It's about how you respond to things and how quickly you can fix a situation and the foresight of your team DURING the season. Botterill had a timeline, which is not new for him, to get a move done, as at some point this season, he would be receiving 2 guys back from injuries, and he would have an already overcrowded blueline. As a GM that is okay with taking guys from Rochester as he admitted, you set yourself to get guys back, and move guys to improve your forwards. So Botterill, with a over crowded RD corp, decides to move a LD. Still have an issue with a crowded RD and you have 2 forwards who are your main "complementary goal scorers" out with injuries and your forwards continue to be terrible.

Joker has played worse than where he was earlier in the year. McCabe has been a train-wreck ALL season. Ristolainen is back to playing to his 2014-2015 level which is still lousy, but hey he's a beast on the PP out of position. Montour has been lost all year, and highly inconsistent. Dahlin JUST now is playing better than last year.

 

[Zman5778]

What's amazing is the failiure to acknowledge that the Joker trade hadn't happened at that point while there was white hot speculation Risto had requested a trade & was about to be shipped out.

Thankfully the former happened while the latter didn't.

I didn't actually like the Miller acquisition in terms of the actual player... albeit the value was still great. But it was a trade which made all the sense in the world at the time.

The outcome of the Vesey deal was predicted by most... But even that was a very low risk move given what was given up & the term on Veseys contract. Would have been nice to get one of those other guys instead but you can't trade for everyone.

I think it's very important to put the Miller trade in context -- we needed an RHD as we only had a kvetching Risto, Montour and a broken Bogosian. Borgen may or may not have been ready. Botts identified what he thought was a solid deal and made it. Yeah, maybe a little pricey at the time.......but a 3rd pairing RHD under term for a 2nd rounder? Not a terrible overpayment for a guy who should have anchored PP2 and played a decent enough 15-17 min per game.

But THEN the Nylander/Jokiharju deal came across his desk. It's a deal that had to be made. And the deal was probably made with the thinking that he'd spend some time in Rochester.


Annnnnnnnd then Joki proved to be an actual, honest-to-god NHL Defenseman and suddenly we've got a logjam. My gut feeling is that if the Nylander/Joki deal happens first.......the Miller deal doesn't happen at all. And I cannot blame him for not doing Nylander for Jokiharju first because I think literally the only GM in the league that would do that deal is one that had a particular and keen interest in acquiring Nylander.......which I feel like was only Stan Bowman.

 

[N.Y. Orangeman]

I think we need to be honest...the majority of people were thrilled with the Miller trade at the time.

 

[sabrebuild]

His defensive game has been stronger than his offensive game IMO. Though I don't agree with him when he says Skinner should be there instead of Olofsson, if anything Reinhart needs to be bumped to the second line.

Am I misunderstanding or are you saying Olofsson, the almost ppg guy, has been better defensively than offensively?

 

[Zman5778]

I think we need to be honest...the majority of people were thrilled with the Miller trade at the time.

https://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/sabres-acquire-colin-miller-from-vgk-for-stls-2nd-round-pick-in-2021-and-a-5th-round-pick-in-2022.2662609


Yeah. Even people now slamming him for the Miller trade were quite optimistic at the time.

 

[Rowley Birkin]

when is trading a 2nd for a 3rd pair defensemen with a dog **** defensive game “great value”?

He's a third pair D on a good team - at worst. At the time of trade he was likely a top 4 lock for the Sabres.

He is signed to a reasonable contract with perfect term.

The pick is an extra year into the future & probably a late one.

It was great value.

Everyone except the strongest Botts detractors thought so at the time.

 

[Jame]

He's a third pair D on a good team - at worst. At the time of trade he was likely a top 4 lock for the Sabres.

He is signed to a reasonable contract with perfect term.

The pick is an extra year into the future & probably a late one.

It was great value.

Everyone except the strongest Botts detractors thought so at the time.

when you’re as bad as Colin Miller, you’re a 3rd pair on all teams. The only difference is in good teams, his liabilities can be masked. Any Sabres fan watching should see that by now.

People fell for charts and metrics they didn’t fully comprehend (when it comes to Miller offseason love fest)

 

[is the answer jesus]

He prioritized getting a bottom pairing RHD and a useless winger in Vesey instead of a capable 2nd line center. That alone is moronic. Let's not defend this idiot. Haula went for scraps and would have filled a bigger hole than Miller did. I didn't hate the Miller trade at the time because I assumed there'd be another corresponding move that he had already lined up. Apparently that was too much multitasking for Jason to pull off.
I expect him to make some significant moves this offseason and to put it kindly I'll just say I'm not optimistic they'll be good moves for the future of this team.

 

[Jame]

https://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/sabres-acquire-colin-miller-from-vgk-for-stls-2nd-round-pick-in-2021-and-a-5th-round-pick-in-2022.2662609


Yeah. Even people now slamming him for the Miller trade were quite optimistic at the time.

Some of us called him a 3rd pair D from the beginning... and called out the problem of having both Montour and Miller (2 righties who both need sheltered roles). A problem that was certainly lessened with the acquisition of Joki, and the known ascension of Pilut.... which led us to where we are now... which was investing numerous high value assets in a 3rd pair.... barf

 

[OkimLom]

https://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/sabres-acquire-colin-miller-from-vgk-for-stls-2nd-round-pick-in-2021-and-a-5th-round-pick-in-2022.2662609


Yeah. Even people now slamming him for the Miller trade were quite optimistic at the time.

Yep, it was seemingly accepted as a good move. But much like everything lately, the execution of using the player in the lineup has been terrible.

 

[Bendium]

I think it's very important to put the Miller trade in context -- we needed an RHD as we only had a kvetching Risto, Montour and a broken Bogosian. Borgen may or may not have been ready. Botts identified what he thought was a solid deal and made it. Yeah, maybe a little pricey at the time.......but a 3rd pairing RHD under term for a 2nd rounder? Not a terrible overpayment for a guy who should have anchored PP2 and played a decent enough 15-17 min per game.

But THEN the Nylander/Jokiharju deal came across his desk. It's a deal that had to be made. And the deal was probably made with the thinking that he'd spend some time in Rochester.


Annnnnnnnd then Joki proved to be an actual, honest-to-god NHL Defenseman and suddenly we've got a logjam. My gut feeling is that if the Nylander/Joki deal happens first.......the Miller deal doesn't happen at all. And I cannot blame him for not doing Nylander for Jokiharju first because I think literally the only GM in the league that would do that deal is one that had a particular and keen interest in acquiring Nylander.......which I feel like was only Stan Bowman.

I 100% agree with this and laid out the timeline in the post below a month ago.

Jason Botterrill Discussion Part 4

If you are honest about the timeline and situation you will see that the Miller trade was a very good choice at the time. Joker was a wildcard and great trade. It worked out so well it created a logjam. None if this is bad. The only thing bad was not figuring out how to move a few players earlier to relieve it. However, as much as RFA's and the cap slowed things down, I also think having a new coach and wanting to give Ralph time to figure out which ones he would want to keep before shipping one or two out may have also played in the delay.

 

[KeyserSoze81]

I 100% agree with this and laid out the timeline in the post below a month ago.

Jason Botterrill Discussion Part 4

If you are honest about the timeline and situation you will see that the Miller trade was a very good choice at the time. Joker was a wildcard and great trade. It worked out so well it created a logjam. None if this is bad. The only thing bad was not figuring out how to move a few players earlier to relieve it. However, as much as RFA's and the cap slowed things down, I also think having a new coach and wanting to give Ralph time to figure out which ones he would want to keep before shipping one or two out may have also played in the delay.

Agreed, we were all ready to ship out Ristolainen, but that trade never materialized. We are a better team with Jokiharju and Risto, which means one of Miller or Montour need to go. Botts would need to take a loss on moving either one, but despite his MBA, he has not shown an ability to overcome the sunk cost fallacy.

 

[Bendium]

Yep, it was seemingly accepted as a good move. But much like everything lately, the execution of using the player in the lineup has been terrible.

I think this is a great point. I couldn't find it just now, but a few weeks ago read an article that painted Miller as the second most skilled defensemen on the Sabres after Dahlin, but noted he had been fighting Ralph's system a bit and thus not getting playing time. That's on both the coach and the player. Last night against Vegas you could see the good Miller on display quite a bit. On multiple occasions instead of passing the puck from the end line he very quickly skated hard up ice an looked for the outlet pass along the way. The defense often tried to cover the pass lanes and left him alone to skate right through the neutral zone and even a couple of times right into the offensive zone. That ability to skate the puck out of the zone instead of stand still passing it is one of the reasons they traded for him. Now whether that fits with the rest of our defensive core at the moment is another thing, but the skill is there with Miller if he is put in the right role with the right line mate…..which to me is a third pairing with a heavy defensive partner......Borgan?

 

[Icicle]

Bogosian had his surgery in April. Pilut had his in May. Their timelines were well aware of way before preseason. Montour went out with a hand injury in the preseason, to which Botterill made statements he's happy to go through the season calling Rochester guys up. During the offseason he grabbed Joker, so he had a crowded RD PRIOR to Montour going out.


Given the cap situation that HE CREATED. Even with that, he constructed a roster that was bloated in a position while struggling to receive consistent secondary scoring from our forwards, which in turned pissed off players due to limited playing time. His cap work has been atrocious.



A GM's job is never done. It's not just about how you construct your team during the offseason. It's about how you respond to things and how quickly you can fix a situation and the foresight of your team DURING the season. Botterill had a timeline, which is not new for him, to get a move done, as at some point this season, he would be receiving 2 guys back from injuries, and he would have an already overcrowded blueline. As a GM that is okay with taking guys from Rochester as he admitted, you set yourself to get guys back, and move guys to improve your forwards. So Botterill, with a over crowded RD corp, decides to move a LD. Still have an issue with a crowded RD and you have 2 forwards who are your main "complementary goal scorers" out with injuries and your forwards continue to be terrible.

Joker has played worse than where he was earlier in the year. McCabe has been a train-wreck ALL season. Ristolainen is back to playing to his 2014-2015 level which is still lousy, but hey he's a beast on the PP out of position. Montour has been lost all year, and highly inconsistent. Dahlin JUST now is playing better than last year.

1. Joker has not regressed
2. McCabe started the season on fire before regressing. He has not been a ‘wreck ALL season’
3. Ristolainen is playing sub 25 minutes for the first time in forever with this 7D rotation thing not many coaches run, and is unsurprisingly to many looking great because of it. You say this is a regression? lol
4. Montour has been stuffed behind Jokiharju’s ascension. Not ‘lost’. That’s Miller, who admittedly struggles with not having a consistent partner
5. Dahlin had the *gasp* sophomore slump. Is that relevant to... anything?

Thank you, try again

 

[Bendium]

Left...............…..Right
Dahlin...............Joker
McCabe.........….Montour
Pilut............……Risto
Gilmore.........… Miller
..................….....Bogo
.....................…..Borgan

Everyone wants us to trade our excess RHD for top six forward (preferably 2C) help.......me too! However, we also have a sizable hole and fit issues at left defense. Past Dahlin we have 2 potential third pairing role defensemen in McCabe and Pilut, plus a solid AHL/NHL depth defenseman. I feel we are lacking a legit left handed defenseman in our top two pairing for the long term, and do not see that player coming up in our system right now. Bogo's contract is untradable. So if the opportunity arises to trade Risto or Miller plus a pick or other player to get a top two pairing LHD with years of team control, then I would pull the triger on that as well.

 

[joshjull]

What's amazing is the failiure to acknowledge that the Joker trade hadn't happened at that point while there was white hot speculation Risto had requested a trade & was about to be shipped out.

Thankfully the former happened while the latter didn't.

I didn't actually like the Miller acquisition in terms of the actual player... albeit the value was still great. But it was a trade which made all the sense in the world at the time.

The outcome of the Vesey deal was predicted by most... But even that was a very low risk move given what was given up & the term on Veseys contract. Would have been nice to get one of those other guys instead but you can't trade for everyone.

I’m well aware of the sequencing of events this past offseason. I also shared the opinion expressed in the bolded at the time of trade and defended it. But over time I changed my mind and eventually came to the conclusion I was wrong to defend the move. I came to view the Miller trade as a baffling/frustrating first move this past offseason for a few reasons........


1) Botts kicking off the offseason saying the defensive injuries (Bogo/Pilut) wouldn’t prevent him from making moves. That he wouldn’t be afraid to use our youth (Bryson /Borgen/Fitzgerald) to ride out Oct/early Nov. Then his first move of the offseason (Miller trade) contradicts those statements. It comes across as timid or at the very least pretty conservative.

2) Miller didn’t fill any need we had coming into the offseason. That was the case even before we acquired Joker with us already having 6 RHD in the fold; Risto, Montour, Bogo, Borgen, Nelson and Fitzgerald.** Even if your argument is he was acquired to mitigate the loss of Risto. He’s a 3rd pairing offensive RHD who wasn’t very effective on the PP. he would have done very little to mitigate the loss of Risto.

3) He acquires Joker giving us 8 RHD options and STILL doesn’t move any NHL dmen or prospects to improve our forward group. Season starts and he makes his task even harder with rosters settled and the cap a much bigger issue. He didn’t need to trade Risto to improve the forwards. He had plenty of options to move to chip away at forward help


** Think of the glaring needs we had up front, particularly a 2/3 center to placehold as the 2nd line center. Regardless of how good or bad you think those 6 RHD are. Thats 6 more options than we had for 2nd line center entering the offseason.