Player Discussion: Ryan Pulock Discussion Part II

[GrandmaSlices51631]

Its not necessarily overpaying them in $$$ amount - rather the term is what is an overpayment. The goal in signing those guys to long term deals is that hopefully one or more pan out and then you have a guy overperforming his contract and we get a real bargain. And the downside is pretty muted - we can send them down to the AHL without a big hit if they struggle. That logic makes sense with Pelech - he's 23 and has upside. If he continues his trajectory towards being a top 4 Dman, his contract is very reasonable. Mayfield, OTOH, doesn't really have that upside. On his good days he's a competent #6 guy and thus his contract is reasonable enough. But I don't think we'll ever see him threaten the top 4 anytime soon....or at all. No real reason to lock him in for 5 years. And the downside with him is that he could be taking up a roster spot that someone like Devon Toews needs. But I guess we can always send him down if need be. And its just a cash situation - he's not hurting our cap.

But the goal is to get players overperforming their deals. And I guess our FO thinks if you throw out enough lines, eventually you'll hook one. Not sure if that's the right approach, but that's what they've been doing.

No doubt about it. It was obvious Snow was hoping he'd have the sweetheart deal of the league when he signed Mayfield for 5 years. Here's the issue with throwing out lines and hoping you hook one - you only have so much line (Cap Space, Max 50 pro Contracts) and you only have so much space on the boat (Roster Spots). So if you want to load up on anchovies hoping one becomes the finest in the world fine, I'd rather go where the Sea Bass and bring one of those home.

In marketing the phrase "Fish Where the Fish Are" seems simplistic, almost stupidly simplistic. But so many people fail to apply this principle in many walks of life. I look towards teams who have had much more recent success and when they get a player of Pulocks caliber - they lock them up long term.

I mean, sure, we could have let Hickey, Mayfield and Pelech walk to reserve money for Pulock, but then Lou would be busy trying to round out the bottom pairing and depth defensemen roles, which would actually distract more from negotiations with Pulock. No reason to think the owner's are being cheap with Pulock's deal because of the Hickey/Mayfield/Pelech deals, and we have plenty of cap space, so it also doesn't seem like having that extra money would improve the negotiations either. These deals were made because the players were willing to accept them at a low AAV without much negotiation, and if Pulock wants to do the same I'm sure he'd be signed in a heartbeat. But he doesn't (for good reason), and that's why it's fruitless trying to compare them as you are doing; they have zero bearing on each other.

And that is why the Islanders have been the laughing stock of the league for nearly 30 years. I have faith in this new regime, however the reason these guys accepted deals at low AAVs is because they are not likely to get much more (if any more at all) on any of the 30 other teams in the league. Why? Simply because they are marginal NHL players. So, when you go gung-ho handing out numerous contracts to these players hoping you hit the jackpot you may just wind up with a bunch of lotto tickets that don't do much for you.

Bigger money deals take longer to negotiate because there is more on the line for both sides. But simply electing to not hand an unproven kid a blank check is hardly "playing hardball."

At no point in time did I imply we hand Pulock a blank check. I actually referenced Parayko's deal as a good example given their position, performance, size and upside. They are similar players. His experience is limited but to call him unproven is disingenuous. In his first full NHL season he put up 10 goals and 22 assists in 68 games. That is great production for a rookie defensemen who is billed as a creative offensive catalyst and PP QB.

Heres where the hardball comes in - recent history tells us that the organization has had trouble retaining talent. We don't need to go down that rabbit hole, look no further then CdH who just took a very amicable deal to play in Carolina of all places.

Nelson waited till the night before training camp to ink his deal that just expired and now he is headed to arbitration. I am admittedly, not the biggest Nelson fan, I'd like to see him traded and if he is looking for big time money, he can get lost. But, ON PAPER, there is a 20 goal scorer who has reached an impasse with the club.

I am a huge proponent for locking up guys like Parayko, Draisaitl, Jones and just hope that the organization makes Pulock a key cog as a part of the core group moving forward.

 

[Seph]

And that is why the Islanders have been the laughing stock of the league for nearly 30 years. I have faith in this new regime, however the reason these guys accepted deals at low AAVs is because they are not likely to get much more (if any more at all) on any of the 30 other teams in the league. Why? Simply because they are marginal NHL players. So, when you go gung-ho handing out numerous contracts to these players hoping you hit the jackpot you may just wind up with a bunch of lotto tickets that don't do much for you.

Yes, they are less talented, I stated that. And yes, that means they have less leverage, I said that too -- in fact, that was my point. That's why I keep pointing out that it's pointless to continue comparing them to Pulock's negotiations, as their negotiations are irrelevant to the situation at hand.

At no point in time did I imply we hand Pulock a blank check. I actually referenced Parayko's deal as a good example given their position, performance, size and upside. They are similar players. His experience is limited but to call him unproven is disingenuous. In his first full NHL season he put up 10 goals and 22 assists in 68 games. That is great production for a rookie defensemen who is billed as a creative offensive catalyst and PP QB.

Heres where the hardball comes in - recent history tells us that the organization has had trouble retaining talent. We don't need to go down that rabbit hole, look no further then CdH who just took a very amicable deal to play in Carolina of all places.

Nelson waited till the night before training camp to ink his deal that just expired and now he is headed to arbitration. I am admittedly, not the biggest Nelson fan, I'd like to see him traded and if he is looking for big time money, he can get lost. But, ON PAPER, there is a 20 goal scorer who has reached an impasse with the club.

I am a huge proponent for locking up guys like Parayko, Draisaitl, Jones and just hope that the organization makes Pulock a key cog as a part of the core group moving forward.

If you feel it is hardball any time a guy with leverage isn't signed immediately and don't want to do that, well, giving in to all his demands is the only way to avoid that, and that's handing him a blank check. Otherwise you take the time to negotiate.

Also, Pulock is nowhere near as proven as Parayko, Draisaitl or Jones were when they signed their deals, so they make poor comparables.

 

[GrandmaSlices51631]

Yes, they are less talented, I stated that. And yes, that means they have less leverage, I said that too -- in fact, that was my point. That's why I keep pointing out that it's pointless to continue comparing them to Pulock's negotiations, as their negotiations are irrelevant to the situation at hand.

But their presence or lack of is pivotal to the success or failure of the team. Their deals are very relevant, considering they occupy roster spots and count against the cap, as long they do those two things your not convincing me otherwise.

If you feel it is hardball any time a guy with leverage isn't signed immediately and don't want to do that, well, giving in to all his demands is the only way to avoid that, and that's handing him a blank check. Otherwise you take the time to negotiate.

Also, Pulock is nowhere near as proven as Parayko, Draisaitl or Jones were when they signed their deals, so they make poor comparables.

Guess we'll agree to disagree on this one Seph. Giving in to all of a parties demands is not the only way, I refuse to believe that. Pulock is not the caliber of player that gets the blank check you speak of and I doubt he's looking for that either.

Parayko signed his deal after 160 NHL games, with less offensive production per game (or season) then Pulock. Parayko and Draisaitl signed their deals after their second full NHL seasons, so basically at the end of this coming season, Pulock will have comparable experience to Parayko and a little less then Draisaitl.

I get what your saying about leverage, but the fact is the team will give non bluechip prospects the benefit of the doubt and sign them on very good, longer deals based on their limited production in the NHL .... but they have yet to roll the proverbial dice by giving a larger contract (not your phony blank check) to a player with significant more upside then his cohorts.

I'll roll the dice on a 23 year old who was not rushed into the league, looked poised in a playoff series (despite the team being worthless) and put up 10G 22A in 68 games this past season. I don't know about you but I don't think Pulock's season was a flash in the pan. It's all relative, sure you sign the marginal players to these kind of deals, but when you take into consideration their resumes to date and upside - it's just as risky to give out multiple long term deals to those types then to pony up the cash and lock up your future PP QB.

 

[Seph]

But their presence or lack of is pivotal to the success or failure of the team. Their deals are very relevant, considering they occupy roster spots and count against the cap, as long they do those two things your not convincing me otherwise.



Guess we'll agree to disagree on this one Seph. Giving in to all of a parties demands is not the only way, I refuse to believe that. Pulock is not the caliber of player that gets the blank check you speak of and I doubt he's looking for that either.

Parayko signed his deal after 160 NHL games, with less offensive production per game (or season) then Pulock. Parayko and Draisaitl signed their deals after their second full NHL seasons, so basically at the end of this coming season, Pulock will have comparable experience to Parayko and a little less then Draisaitl.

I get what your saying about leverage, but the fact is the team will give non bluechip prospects the benefit of the doubt and sign them on very good, longer deals based on their limited production in the NHL .... but they have yet to roll the proverbial dice by giving a larger contract (not your phony blank check) to a player with significant more upside then his cohorts.

I'll roll the dice on a 23 year old who was not rushed into the league, looked poised in a playoff series (despite the team being worthless) and put up 10G 22A in 68 games this past season. I don't know about you but I don't think Pulock's season was a flash in the pan. It's all relative, sure you sign the marginal players to these kind of deals, but when you take into consideration their resumes to date and upside - it's just as risky to give out multiple long term deals to those types then to pony up the cash and lock up your future PP QB.

I feel like you're intentionally missing my point now, so yeah, let's just call it a day on this one.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Puluck is a key player for the Isles. There is upside, but he doesn't have the leverage to ask for the moon giving the Isles a chance to lock him up to a sweetheart deal. I would easily d0 4-4.5M for 5 years f0r him locking him up for his RFA years.

 

[skipjack]

Great deal, great player. Looking forward to see him upcoming season.

 

[Brunomics]

I think their PP this season is going to be similar to the Caps. Put Pulock at the circle and let Barzal feed him one timers.

 

[ThreeLeftSkates]

I think their PP this season is going to be similar to the Caps. Put Pulock at the circle and let Barzal feed him one timers.

I think our PP is going to be where we miss Pajama Boy the most.

 

[Kevin27NYI]

I think our PP is going to be where we miss Pajama Boy the most.

Maybe. Bailey kinda QB'ed it, he and Barzal were elite on the sides there, Lee is elite in front and Pulock is kinda elite shooting soo idk. Barzal has the entries.. I think the can survive. Have Eberle be the extra guy attacking the net and giving out options.

 

[Konk]

I think our PP is going to be where we miss Pajama Boy the most.

Really? I feel like the PP is where we'll miss him the least. Having JT's space freed up, I think allows us to move Pulock to the top unit. We still have all of the elements of a successful PP. Zone entries & QB - Barzal, distribution from the opposite side - Bailey, net front presence - Lee, shot - Pulock, and Leddy.

 

[macleod50]

Really? I feel like the PP is where we'll miss him the least. Having JT's space freed up, I think allows us to move Pulock to the top unit. We still have all of the elements of a successful PP. Zone entries & QB - Barzal, distribution from the opposite side - Bailey, net front presence - Lee, shot - Pulock, and Leddy.

Agreed. The power play was good last year, but it stalled a lot when Tavares got it on the half-wall. His decision making was a half second too slow at times, and it gave the PK time to pounce.

I think Trotz will have Pulock on the first PP unit this season.

 

[PK Cronin]

I think our PP is going to be where we miss Pajama Boy the most.

I think it was the one glaring area where he wasn't needed because of how good Barzal was. He was kind of just lost in the design of the PP by playing that bumper spots up high.

 

[crasherino]

Brady Skeji just got a 6yr/$31m deal. Just wondering if Pulock signed for something similar if people would be happy or are they content with the bridge deal in that scenario? If we wanted him long term, I think it would have had to have been in the neighborhood.

 

[Skip To My Lou]

Brady Skeji just got a 6yr/$31m deal. Just wondering if Pulock signed for something similar if people would be happy or are they content with the bridge deal in that scenario? If we wanted him long term, I think it would have had to have been in the neighborhood.

Skjei has done a lot to warrant that though. If we see another season similar to last from Pulock, then maybe.

 

[scott99]

Agreed. The power play was good last year, but it stalled a lot when Tavares got it on the half-wall. His decision making was a half second too slow at times, and it gave the PK time to pounce.

I think Trotz will have Pulock on the first PP unit this season.

The bold part, I agree, I think Trotz will use Pulock as his John Carlson, Pulock had a similar 1st full season, and Carlson didn't really break out offensively until his age 24-25 season.

 

[Lame Lambert]

Jack Capuano and Doug Weight sat Ryan for Strait and Seidenberg. Never forget.

 

[PWJunior]

Pulock is going to have a big year, that shot destroys everything in it's path.

 

[Thrasymachus]

Stud

 

[Islesfan22]

He could get 20 goals this season depending on how much pp time he gets. His overall game though has improved dramatically.

 

[Lame Lambert]

 

[Uncle Duke]

Jack Capuano and Doug Weight sat Ryan for Strait and Seidenberg. Never forget.

And in the long run may have done us a favor.

 

[Uncle Duke]

I'm sure Lehner had a perfect vantage point from which to admire Pulock's precision blasts.

 

[boredmale]

I always said Pulock's shot is like MA Bergeron but accurate

 

[SI90]

I’ll take the goalies word

 

[SI90]

I'm sure Lehner had a perfect vantage point from which to admire Pulock's precision blasts.

Thanks Capt Obvious.