Confirmed with Link: Ryan O'Reilly traded to STL for Tage Thompson, Patrik Berglund, Vladimir Sobotka, 2019 1st, 2021 2nd

[Jame]

Boston universally was thought to go off the board on all three picks. Bad example.

The draft is a crap shoot. The fact that you don’t see language like “universally thought” as proof of that is just bizarre.
An NHL front office missed on multiple studs with 3 consecutive picks... and the same thing happens every single year with dozens of picks.

Outside the top top of the draft... crap shoot

 

[Icicle]

The draft is a crap shoot. The fact that you don’t see language like “universally thought” as proof of that is just bizarre.
An NHL front office missed on multiple studs with 3 consecutive picks... and the same thing happens every single year with dozens of picks.

Outside the top top of the draft... crap shoot

Coming from the guy who forms strong opinions about draft selections every year...

Didn’t do so well this go around?

 

[sabrebuild]

From just the first page of searching “Matt Duchene Ryan O’Reilly”

Chambers: Ryan O’Reilly-Matt Duchene pair not healthy – The Denver Post

Matt Duchene says Ryan O'Reilly was a good teammate "at the rink"

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxsports.com/nhl/story/nhl-buffalo-sabres-colorado-avalanche-ryan-o-reilly-matt-duchene-did-not-get-along-012016?amp=true

Ryan O'Reilly Finding the Home in Buffalo He Never Found in Colorado

As a heads up, any generalizatio I make about what people think is not directed at you, but this forum in general.

So I appreciate the effort, but I’m aware of how to do research and I have seen the article’s he has used before, basically one, which you pulled. I just want him to actually justify his hot takes.

But I read those articles and I see two sources used, 1 per two articles.

The first two links both described the same comment from Duchene, basically indicating that O’Reilly was great at the rink, in the gym, etc. The implication that icicle and others want to take, is that means he was bad out of the rink, which I guess means something... I mean for it to fit with the general theories around here, he should some obnoxious dude in the locker room or when tandem biking is happening.

But what the implication seems to be about is the contract disputes that O’Reilly had with Colorado, which the next two links discuss. Which has a couple of interesting comments.

First, I think it’s revealing that O’Reilly is quoted saying he didn’t care about getting a letter in Colorado and that his not feeling comfortable was about continual short contracts.

Second, his contract disputes were the whole thing. And typically pro athletes support each other in contract disputes. That Duchene was miffed that O’Reilly wouldn’t go for a lesser bridge deal, tells me something about Duchene. So I have a hard time with the general premise that O’Reilly was a problem in the locker room. At best he pissed off a prima Donna who agreed to a cheap deal after a terrible last year of his elc, and was surprised that O’Reilly didn’t want to take a lesser deal than him.

I think it also says something that, high and pure Duchene, demanded to get out a couple year later and people use that to show how culture change is big.

So which is it, O’Reilly was the problem because he made Duchene pissed for not taking less money?

Or Duchene was the problem because Colorado got his butt out of there after a couple of bad seasons, and then team got good?

Or were both guys the problem? But how could that be, they carried that team to the playoffs during a great regular season. And then management let Stasny ho and never replaced a top six quality player and the team fell apart the next year.

Maybe the real problem is not culture at all. And is in fact culture in pro sports is built on winning, talent, money and consistency. You need the talent and the money to have a hope. You need the consistency to keep everything and everyone in one direction, good stable coach and management.

Trading difference makers is seldom the answer. Does Boston have another title with 5 years of prime Seguin, Bergeron and Krecji?

 

[Icicle]

As a heads up, any generalizatio I make about what people think is not directed at you, but this forum in general.

So I appreciate the effort, but I’m aware of how to do research and I have seen the article’s he has used before, basically one, which you pulled. I just want him to actually justify his hot takes.

But I read those articles and I see two sources used, 1 per two articles.

The first two links both described the same comment from Duchene, basically indicating that O’Reilly was great at the rink, in the gym, etc. The implication that icicle and others want to take, is that means he was bad out of the rink, which I guess means something... I mean for it to fit with the general theories around here, he should some obnoxious dude in the locker room or when tandem biking is happening.

But what the implication seems to be about is the contract disputes that O’Reilly had with Colorado, which the next two links discuss. Which has a couple of interesting comments.

First, I think it’s revealing that O’Reilly is quoted saying he didn’t care about getting a letter in Colorado and that his not feeling comfortable was about continual short contracts.

Second, his contract disputes were the whole thing. And typically pro athletes support each other in contract disputes. That Duchene was miffed that O’Reilly wouldn’t go for a lesser bridge deal, tells me something about Duchene. So I have a hard time with the general premise that O’Reilly was a problem in the locker room. At best he pissed off a prima Donna who agreed to a cheap deal after a terrible last year of his elc, and was surprised that O’Reilly didn’t want to take a lesser deal than him.

I think it also says something that, high and pure Duchene, demanded to get out a couple year later and people use that to show how culture change is big.

So which is it, O’Reilly was the problem because he made Duchene pissed for not taking less money?

Or Duchene was the problem because Colorado got his butt out of there after a couple of bad seasons, and then team got good?

Or were both guys the problem? But how could that be, they carried that team to the playoffs during a great regular season. And then management let Stasny ho and never replaced a top six quality player and the team fell apart the next year.

Maybe the real problem is not culture at all. And is in fact culture in pro sports is built on winning, talent, money and consistency. You need the talent and the money to have a hope. You need the consistency to keep everything and everyone in one direction, good stable coach and management.

Trading difference makers is seldom the answer. Does Boston have another title with 5 years of prime Seguin, Bergeron and Krecji?

ROR demanded an inflated contract that only made sense if he was a future captain and the team leader. Go back to the signing thread and see that justification everyone used about the price tag he garnered.

However, he clearly said he didn’t want to lead and couldn’t be happier to go to St Louis where he no longer has that expectation.

Full stop- only considering the two situations above, can you imagine why this points towards a problem for ROR in Buffalo? That has nothing to do with his on ice play or his statistics.

Then add in the whole COR situation, and his other comments, he perpetual down attitude, etc. Followed by his out of character interviews in the off season just to parody and boost his value to make up for it all?

The guy wore out his welcome in Buffalo. Plain and simple. You don’t have to buy into conspiracy or BS when the two points first made are already more than enough.

 

[Fezzy126]

Why are there multiple pages using the Duchene trade as an expected return for the ROR trade? It's nearly universally acknowledged that the trade was heavily unbalanced and in Colorado's favor and also required the perfect storm of events; Duchene's team friendly contract & Nashville trying to maximize their contention window & Dorion's 2+ year pursuit of Duchene as his prospective #1 center. I'd be hard-pressed to find a comparable trade in the history of the NHL.

Botts was never getting a similar package, no matter how long he held out.
Which GM has been pursuing ROR for 2+ years to be their new #1 center?
Which third team is willing to give up major futures to acquire another TBD player to maximize their own contention window?

Botts not getting the Duchene return for ROR is to be expected.

My biggest issue with the trade echos Stimson's latest article on the subject; if ROR should return a 1st, a 2nd, and a prospect, then the cost should go up (substantially) if two cap dumps are included. At the very least, taking on Berglund AND Sobotka should have resulted in an upgrade from Thompson->Thomas and/or two 1sts instead of a 1st and a 2nd:

ROR for Thompson, 2019 1st, 2021 2nd
or
ROR for Thomas, 2019 1st, 2021 2nd, Sobotka
or
ROR for Thomas, 2019 1st, 2021 1st, Sobotka, Berglund

 

[sabrebuild]

Actually, the results of that search are interesting. Maybe you can check them out after you’re done reading all the ROR tributes from his Sabres teammates.

I read all of the articles. I read a couple of them before the original trade even, or directly after.

None of them are compelling to me.

But I appreciate that you think the conversation requires me to show comments by buffalo players today to disprove a theory about statements made 4 years ago in Colorado...

 

[sabrebuild]

Why are there multiple pages using the Duchene trade as an expected return for the ROR trade? It's nearly universally acknowledged that the trade was heavily unbalanced and in Colorado's favor and also required the perfect storm of events; Duchene's team friendly contract & Nashville trying to maximize their contention window & Dorion's 2+ year pursuit of Duchene as his prospective #1 center. I'd be hard-pressed to find a comparable trade in the history of the NHL.

Botts was never getting a similar package, no matter how long he held out.
Which GM has been pursuing ROR for 2+ years to be their new #1 center?
Which third team is willing to give up major futures to acquire another TBD player to maximize their own contention window?

Botts not getting the Duchene return for ROR is to be expected.

My biggest issue with the trade echos Stimson's latest article on the subject; if ROR should return a 1st, a 2nd, and a prospect, then the cost should go up (substantially) if two cap dumps are included. At the very least, taking on Berglund AND Sobotka should have resulted in an upgrade from Thompson->Thomas and/or two 1sts instead of a 1st and a 2nd:

ROR for Thompson, 2019 1st, 2021 2nd
or
ROR for Thomas, 2019 1st, 2021 2nd, Sobotka
or
ROR for Thomas, 2019 1st, 2021 1st, Sobotka, Berglund

You are a sensible man.

 

[dasaybz]

The fundamental difference is that Colorado had the patience to extract full value, and Botts did not.

Thats not true. He was shopping him at the trade deadline as well. Perhaps this was just the most value they could get for him.

 

[haseoke39]

Thats not true. He was shopping him at the trade deadline as well. Perhaps this was just the most value they could get for him.

False. He decided to shop ROR on May 24th, 3:44 PM.

 

[littletonhockeycoach]

As a heads up, any generalizatio I make about what people think is not directed at you, but this forum in general.

So I appreciate the effort, but I’m aware of how to do research and I have seen the article’s he has used before, basically one, which you pulled. I just want him to actually justify his hot takes.

But I read those articles and I see two sources used, 1 per two articles.

The first two links both described the same comment from Duchene, basically indicating that O’Reilly was great at the rink, in the gym, etc. The implication that icicle and others want to take, is that means he was bad out of the rink, which I guess means something... I mean for it to fit with the general theories around here, he should some obnoxious dude in the locker room or when tandem biking is happening.

But what the implication seems to be about is the contract disputes that O’Reilly had with Colorado, which the next two links discuss. Which has a couple of interesting comments.

First, I think it’s revealing that O’Reilly is quoted saying he didn’t care about getting a letter in Colorado and that his not feeling comfortable was about continual short contracts.

Second, his contract disputes were the whole thing. And typically pro athletes support each other in contract disputes. That Duchene was miffed that O’Reilly wouldn’t go for a lesser bridge deal, tells me something about Duchene. So I have a hard time with the general premise that O’Reilly was a problem in the locker room. At best he pissed off a prima Donna who agreed to a cheap deal after a terrible last year of his elc, and was surprised that O’Reilly didn’t want to take a lesser deal than him.

I think it also says something that, high and pure Duchene, demanded to get out a couple year later and people use that to show how culture change is big.

So which is it, O’Reilly was the problem because he made Duchene pissed for not taking less money?

Or Duchene was the problem because Colorado got his butt out of there after a couple of bad seasons, and then team got good?

Or were both guys the problem? But how could that be, they carried that team to the playoffs during a great regular season. And then management let Stasny ho and never replaced a top six quality player and the team fell apart the next year.

Maybe the real problem is not culture at all. And is in fact culture in pro sports is built on winning, talent, money and consistency. You need the talent and the money to have a hope. You need the consistency to keep everything and everyone in one direction, good stable coach and management.

Trading difference makers is seldom the answer. Does Boston have another title with 5 years of prime Seguin, Bergeron and Krecji?

Trying to help here but using article by Mike Chambers vis a vis the Avs is as well regarded on the Avs HF board as using Bucky and Harrington et al is on this one.

Bottom line..... RoR made himself into a management problem in Colorado. As he ended up doing in Buffalo. Duchene went from being favored son.... future of the franchise.... to just another top 6 player. He wilted under Roy's glare and decided he needed new and greener pastures after the Av's crappy 15-16 and 16-17 seasons. His play became predictable, he lost faith in the organization and he certainly wasn't being loved by the fans anymore so he pouted until he was finally dealt. Fault lies with both.

 

[Club]

I just can’t believe people are defending the value of the trade. It’s incontrovertibly bad.

We haven't even started the season yet

let time tell. just my 2 cents I guess

 

[HolyJumpin]

As much as us Blues fans bitched about Berglund, the guy will probably score 20+ goals healthy next season. Sobotka is a decent utility player, and I imagine Thompson to turn into a big boy goalscorer.

The third first next year and a second in the future are pretty good too, especially if there's an upgrade available.

You'll get more combined points out of the three of them than ROR, that's a win in my book.

 

[sabrebuild]

Trying to help here but using article by Mike Chambers vis a vis the Avs is as well regarded on the Avs HF board as using Bucky and Harrington et al is on this one.

Bottom line..... RoR made himself into a management problem in Colorado. As he ended up doing in Buffalo. Duchene went from being favored son.... future of the franchise.... to just another top 6 player. He wilted under Roy's glare and decided he needed new and greener pastures after the Av's crappy 15-16 and 16-17 seasons. His play became predictable, he lost faith in the organization and he certainly wasn't being loved by the fans anymore so he pouted until he was finally dealt. Fault lies with both.

Ya i know about chambers. I think your spot on regarding ror being a “management” problem in colorado, not a locker room problem as some want to paint blindly. And i think management is the problem in the nhl, more frequently than the players.

Which comes back to the point, trying to say culture is the problem on a fundamentally untalented team is a fools errand.

 

[joshjull]

Ya i know about chambers. I think your spot on regarding ror being a “management” problem in colorado, not a locker room problem as some want to paint blindly. And i think management is the problem in the nhl, more frequently than the players.

Which comes back to the point, trying to say culture is the problem on a fundamentally untalented team is a fools errand.

Few are arguing its THE problem. Most realize its one of the issues this team has. It makes perfect sense to want to clean that up before a big influx of young talent comes in.


As for ROR role in that, I don't think he was a cancer but it may be best to move on from him as part of your vet leadership core. Hard to do that fully with him still here.

 

[Rastin]

I don't look at Berglund as a cap dump. The guy is a solid NHLer that's slightly overpaid. I'd prefer not to have him as LONG as we now do but the salary isn't that out of whack. Sobotka is basically a cap dump, he hasn't been the same guy since he returned from the KHL.

So a Roster player, a first, a second, a B-level prospect and a Cap dump @3.5 for 2 years in exchange for ROR

Sounds a lot better than everyone saying there were 2 cap dumps in there. It's a pretty decent return honestly.

 

[joshjull]

Why are there multiple pages using the Duchene trade as an expected return for the ROR trade? It's nearly universally acknowledged that the trade was heavily unbalanced and in Colorado's favor and also required the perfect storm of events; Duchene's team friendly contract & Nashville trying to maximize their contention window & Dorion's 2+ year pursuit of Duchene as his prospective #1 center. I'd be hard-pressed to find a comparable trade in the history of the NHL.

Botts was never getting a similar package, no matter how long he held out.
Which GM has been pursuing ROR for 2+ years to be their new #1 center?
Which third team is willing to give up major futures to acquire another TBD player to maximize their own contention window?

Botts not getting the Duchene return for ROR is to be expected.

Well said

My biggest issue with the trade echos Stimson's latest article on the subject; if ROR should return a 1st, a 2nd, and a prospect, then the cost should go up (substantially) if two cap dumps are included. At the very least, taking on Berglund AND Sobotka should have resulted in an upgrade from Thompson->Thomas and/or two 1sts instead of a 1st and a 2nd:

ROR for Thompson, 2019 1st, 2021 2nd
or
ROR for Thomas, 2019 1st, 2021 2nd, Sobotka
or
ROR for Thomas, 2019 1st, 2021 1st, Sobotka, Berglund

I'm having a hard to buying into this. I think the cap dump phrasing implies we were doing the Blues a favor by taking on those cap hits and are getting nothing out it. As opposed to actually helping ourselves as well. I expected salary to come back in any ROR trade due to his 7.5mil cap hit. If we had taken on the cap hit of a player or players incapable of playing in the NHL any more to help facilitate this trade (Like Moulson). Then I could see the argument that we should be compensated for taking on that dead cap space. But we added two middle 6 depth players who can still contribute in those roles in the NHL. They were doing that on a much better team than ours. In effect thats what we got for taking on their contracts, two middle 6 NHL forwards and the deal happening as opposed to not. I know its not sexy or exciting but I don't see how adding them warrants another 1st and/or an upgrade in prospects.

To me the main argument about the return is the level of prospect. I think if Thomas replaced Thompson and everything else remained the same there would probably be less posters annoyed with the deal. But I don't think taking on Berglund/Sobotka gets you there.

 

[Icicle]

I bet Berglund is going to end up being one of the stable favorite blue-collar players for some of these people who don't know him now calling him 'just a cap dump'.

 

[Jim Bob]

I bet Berglund is going to end up being one of the stable favorite blue-collar players for some of these people who don't know him now calling him 'just a cap dump'.

I think it is more likely that he and Thompson become whipping boys because of who they were traded for.

 

[TheMistyStranger]

I've always really liked Berglund, to be honest. I think he's being dealt a really unfair hand by some people on this board.

 

[Icicle]

I think it is more likely that he and Thompson become whipping boys because of who they were traded for.

Thompson will be, but people are going to forget when they learn more about Bergy

 

[Aladyyn]

I bet Berglund is going to end up being one of the stable favorite blue-collar players for some of these people who don't know him now calling him 'just a cap dump'.

And the trade will still be horrible.

 

[Icicle]

And the trade will still be horrible.

Thanks for circling us back into your misery

 

[SundherDome]

Thanks for circling us back into your misery

The trade was still horrible but Berglund should be a good plug for to years. We can hate the trade and have low to medium expectations independent from the trade value.

 

[Moskau]

I've always really liked Berglund, to be honest. I think he's being dealt a really unfair hand by some people on this board.

Pretty sure Jame, Struck and myself all loved Berglund and Sobotka... three years ago.

We're not acquiring a Jochen Hecht or Mike Grier that was under or poorly utilized on a bad team. We're acquiring guys who played poorly with far better teammates and easier matchups than they are likely going to get here.

 

[Montag DP]

I think it is more likely that he and Thompson become whipping boys because of who they were traded for.

Oh yes. I expect the opinions will be strongly cemented within the first 5 games.