Player Discussion Ryan Nugent-Hopkins '17-18 Season

[Asher]

Man, I'm still pro Nuge. I'll agree that he has to pick it up offensivley, but to poo-poo his contributions against top lines and players is laughable IMO. He's very solid defensively. Hope he gets injured for a while so we can see what we're like without him. That'll make for a good discussion I'm sure.

The problem isn't that he can't contribute, it's that his contributions aren't worth 6M/year, especially on a team that might be in cap trouble in a couple of years. That is the downside to signing a big contract in a salary cap league -- if you can't live up the money then your days are probably numbered. Eberle would still be here too if he were being paid like Strome, but he isn't, and that's why he's gone.

 

[russ99]

RNH is actually very good at defensive anticipation, coverage and checking with the stick.

If there's any issue with his defensive play is that he's not physical for a 6'0" 195 lb player.

We need him as a defensive center, especially if Draisaitl aqnd Strome frequently swap spots on the first and second line, defense isn't a strength for Strome,

Offense to me is the issue. He's seemingly stuck on a rebuild mentality, everything off the rush.

Again, strength is the issue, he's weak on the wall and in high pressure areas. I don't think his timidness on offense last year was due to getting back on D, is that he wilts under pressure and hasn't not adapted to McLellan's shoot and recover systems.

I hope he finds chemistry with Jokinen and Puljujarvi or Kassian, we need him to have a better year for both our goals for the year, but also it will be hard to move a 3yr/$6M player in the offseason if he falters for another season.

 

[Asiaoil]

RNH got matched against Joe Pavelski, whose stats were:
G1: 3 Shots, 0G, 0A
G2: 2 shots, 0G, 0A
G3: 1 shot, 0G, 0A
G4 (this is the 7-0 spanking we got): 4 shots, 2g, 1A
G5: 3 shots, 0G, 0A
G6: 3 shots, 0G, 0A

Helping hold a ~70 pt (68 pts in 2016-17) player to 16 shots and 3 points over an entire 6 game series is okay

Helping is the key word here as there were 5 other guys on the ice who had something to do with that. Elite play is out-scoring elite opposition. Not just shutting down a guy which is what old fashioned 3rd line checkers did. You can just keep Boyd Gordon around if you just want nothing to happen for 15 minutes a night.

It's going to be a long season listening to this as spawn said and I'll keep my comments to RNH's actual performance for the most part. If we didn't have Drai then RNH would be an OK 2C behind McDavid. But we do have Drai and RNH is over-paid and unsuited (timid, non-physical, poor faceoffs etc) for a 3C role. He's not a "shut down" center and Drai/McDavid make all of his actual skills redundant. He'll be traded for a young Maroon replacement on LW next summer is my guess. We will get an older vet from the Vermette tree who fits into our cap structure to play 3C for us next season and finally close the book on the the disastrous rebuild 1.0 failure led by Lowe, Tambo and MacT.

 

[jukon]

The problem isn't that he can't contribute, it's that his contributions aren't worth 6M/year, especially on a team that might be in cap trouble in a couple of years. That is the downside to signing a big contract in a salary cap league -- if you can't live up the money then your days are probably numbered. Eberle would still be here too if he were being paid like Strome, but he isn't, and that's why he's gone.

Eberle isn't here because of last years playoffs. You can't play like that and expect to stay. If he were paid 1M/year he would not be here today.

 

[McTedi]

Eberle isn't here because of last years playoffs. You can't play like that and expect to stay. If he were paid 1M/year he would not be here today.

That trade had everything to do with money. Massive exaggeration on the 2nd part.

 

[SomeDudeOTI]

Helping is the key word here as there were 5 other guys on the ice who had something to do with that. Elite play is out-scoring elite opposition. Not just shutting down a guy which is what old fashioned 3rd line checkers did. You can just keep Boyd Gordon around if you just want nothing to happen for 15 minutes a night.

It's going to be a long season listening to this as spawn said and I'll keep my comments to RNH's actual performance for the most part. If we didn't have Drai then RNH would be an OK 2C behind McDavid. But we do have Drai and RNH is over-paid and unsuited (timid, non-physical, poor faceoffs etc) for a 3C role. He's not a "shut down" center and Drai/McDavid make all of his actual skills redundant. He'll be traded for a young Maroon replacement on LW next summer is my guess. We will get an older vet from the Vermette tree who fits into our cap structure to play 3C for us next season and finally close the book on the the disastrous rebuild 1.0 failure led by Lowe, Tambo and MacT.

So you're saying RNH isn't an elite player?

I don't think even the hard core fan boys would say that. Maybe, fan boys will be fan boys... but I doubt it.

I think where the discrepancy lies is one side sees 1st OA, 6 million dollars and they're disappointed and the other side sees a talented hockey player that contributes to the team success. Even last year with his low numbers he helped us win.

I dare you to find a similar C who faced similar QoC while putting up similar #'s, who makes less than 5 million per year (on a recent contract). I grant that at 6mil he is slightly overpaid for his production. However for what he brings to the rink I doubt we could replace him for much less.

Drai at C is unproven, having Nuge in the lineup gives us options and that is huge. The 3C arguement is almost irrelevant because with Drai at c and Nuge at c, we essentially have 2 2nd lines, what remains to be seen is whether Drai spends much time at C and who sees the QoC.

Overall my opinion is that Nuge is slightly overpaid for where he's at, but really not much. If he develops at All (still pretty young ya know) or salaries rise at all, we're sitting pretty at C. You can't put a price tag on having three good C on your team, especially when it allows you to overload the 1st line by putting Drai at wing.

That said, as I mentioned in another post, he certainly has room for improvement. What grinds my gears is the constant "he's not performing like a 1OA.. 6 million dollars!! ..move him and get someone else" narrative that runs on here. He might be underperforming based on draft and salary, but he is a very important part of our team.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

Helping is the key word here as there were 5 other guys on the ice who had something to do with that. Elite play is out-scoring elite opposition. Not just shutting down a guy which is what old fashioned 3rd line checkers did. You can just keep Boyd Gordon around if you just want nothing to happen for 15 minutes a night.

It's going to be a long season listening to this as spawn said and I'll keep my comments to RNH's actual performance for the most part. If we didn't have Drai then RNH would be an OK 2C behind McDavid. But we do have Drai and RNH is over-paid and unsuited (timid, non-physical, poor faceoffs etc) for a 3C role. He's not a "shut down" center and Drai/McDavid make all of his actual skills redundant. He'll be traded for a young Maroon replacement on LW next summer is my guess. We will get an older vet from the Vermette tree who fits into our cap structure to play 3C for us next season and finally close the book on the the disastrous rebuild 1.0 failure led by Lowe, Tambo and MacT.

So then it's fair to say that when things weren't going well that it wasn't his fault. That said I recall Pavelski getting plenty pissed off at Nuge in that Series, that usually stems from frustration.

 

[KlefDown]

he's putting up 60 this year.

 

[Aerchon]

So you're saying RNH isn't an elite player?

I don't think even the hard core fan boys would say that. Maybe, fan boys will be fan boys... but I doubt it.

I think where the discrepancy lies is one side sees 1st OA, 6 million dollars and they're disappointed and the other side sees a talented hockey player that contributes to the team success. Even last year with his low numbers he helped us win.

I dare you to find a similar C who faced similar QoC while putting up similar #'s, who makes less than 5 million per year (on a recent contract). I grant that at 6mil he is slightly overpaid for his production. However for what he brings to the rink I doubt we could replace him for much less.

Drai at C is unproven, having Nuge in the lineup gives us options and that is huge. The 3C arguement is almost irrelevant because with Drai at c and Nuge at c, we essentially have 2 2nd lines, what remains to be seen is whether Drai spends much time at C and who sees the QoC.

Overall my opinion is that Nuge is slightly overpaid for where he's at, but really not much. If he develops at All (still pretty young ya know) or salaries rise at all, we're sitting pretty at C. You can't put a price tag on having three good C on your team, especially when it allows you to overload the 1st line by putting Drai at wing.

That said, as I mentioned in another post, he certainly has room for improvement. What grinds my gears is the constant "he's not performing like a 1OA.. 6 million dollars!! ..move him and get someone else" narrative that runs on here. He might be underperforming based on draft and salary, but he is a very important part of our team.

Solid post.

 

[shoop]

Drai at C is unproven, having Nuge in the lineup gives us options and that is huge. The 3C arguement is almost irrelevant because with Drai at c and Nuge at c, we essentially have 2 2nd lines, what remains to be seen is whether Drai spends much time at C and who sees the QoC.

Maroon-Drai-Strome (or whoever else you want to throw on the right side) is a second line? Tough crowd.

I'm pretty sure that would be the first line on most teams in the league. Just sayin'

 

[SomeDudeOTI]

Solid post.

Thanks. I usually just lurk but this has been getting to beef levels

 

[Dorian2]

The problem isn't that he can't contribute, it's that his contributions aren't worth 6M/year, especially on a team that might be in cap trouble in a couple of years. That is the downside to signing a big contract in a salary cap league -- if you can't live up the money then your days are probably numbered. Eberle would still be here too if he were being paid like Strome, but he isn't, and that's why he's gone.

I know Asher. I just don't see the point in bashing him because he happened to sign a contract that was glad handed to him and the other 2 6 million dollar men. I said it before and I'll repeat it here. If they can move him for a player that will contribute to the same or better level at less $$$$$$.....great. I don't see the point in making it seem like he's useless on the team because he's making what he is. I happen to like his contributions and what he brings. I'm also all in for him either getting it all together this year if possible. That has yet to be seen though.

 

[SomeDudeOTI]

Maroon-Drai-Strome (or whoever else you want to throw on the right side) is a second line? Tough crowd.

I'm pretty sure that would be the first line on most teams in the league. Just sayin'

It is a tough crowd, McD is our first line. Drai, Nuge, whoever is our second line... most teams in the league would kill for our problems.

 

[Aerchon]

It is a tough crowd, McD is our first line. Drai, Nuge, whoever is our second line... most teams in the league would kill for our problems.

Yup.

Center depth like ours is basically unheard of and will be a big part of our success this year... Assuming we have some that is

 

[McDrai]

he's putting up 60 this year.

Not a chance

 

[shoop]

It is a tough crowd, McD is our first line. Drai, Nuge, whoever is our second line... most teams in the league would kill for our problems.

I get where you are going now.

Lucic - Drai - Caggiula could be a really good second line, depends on Cags. Once Slepy comes back I think that's certainly a good second line.

Jokinen - Nuge - Puljujarvi is an ok second line. I've heard conflicting things about Jokinen's wheels.

 

[Aerchon]

Not a chance

Nuge puts up 60 points this year, playing on the third line with JJ and JP, and they can continue that pace into the playoffs... May as well plan the parade now boys.

 

[MessierII]

So you're saying RNH isn't an elite player?

I don't think even the hard core fan boys would say that. Maybe, fan boys will be fan boys... but I doubt it.

I think where the discrepancy lies is one side sees 1st OA, 6 million dollars and they're disappointed and the other side sees a talented hockey player that contributes to the team success. Even last year with his low numbers he helped us win.

I dare you to find a similar C who faced similar QoC while putting up similar #'s, who makes less than 5 million per year (on a recent contract). I grant that at 6mil he is slightly overpaid for his production. However for what he brings to the rink I doubt we could replace him for much less.

Drai at C is unproven, having Nuge in the lineup gives us options and that is huge. The 3C arguement is almost irrelevant because with Drai at c and Nuge at c, we essentially have 2 2nd lines, what remains to be seen is whether Drai spends much time at C and who sees the QoC.

Overall my opinion is that Nuge is slightly overpaid for where he's at, but really not much. If he develops at All (still pretty young ya know) or salaries rise at all, we're sitting pretty at C. You can't put a price tag on having three good C on your team, especially when it allows you to overload the 1st line by putting Drai at wing.

That said, as I mentioned in another post, he certainly has room for improvement. What grinds my gears is the constant "he's not performing like a 1OA.. 6 million dollars!! ..move him and get someone else" narrative that runs on here. He might be underperforming based on draft and salary, but he is a very important part of our team.

Nuge faced some of the easiest quality of competition he's faced in years last year and his numbers got worse. I'd actually prefer if his numbers floated around 35-40 points and he was actually, real life, good defensively and good on draws like couturier. Instead we have this guy who gets paid like a 1st liner but doesn't produce like it and is used as a matchup centre but sucks at it. What kind of player is Nugent-Hopkins? I don't even have an answer anymore.

 

[SomeDudeOTI]

I love the sound of the jj/rnh/jp line .. I don't know enough about jj, but assuming he's as responsible on the D side as I hear, rnh can push and with the JP shot on the right side, that line can do damage.

It's going to be an exciting year

 

[SomeDudeOTI]

Nuge faced some of the easiest quality of competition he's faced in years last year and his numbers got worse. I'd actually prefer if his numbers floated around 35-40 points and he was actually, real life, good defensively and good on draws like couturier. Instead we have this guy who gets paid like a 1st liner but doesn't produce like it and is used as a matchup centre but sucks at it. What kind of player is Nugent-Hopkins? I don't even have an answer anymore.

He's not Bergeron, he's not McDavid, he's somewhere in between. At 6mil I think he's slightly overpaid but not that much. He's also still fairly young and has room for improvement.

 

[Asiaoil]

So you're saying RNH isn't an elite player?

I don't think even the hard core fan boys would say that. Maybe, fan boys will be fan boys... but I doubt it.

I think where the discrepancy lies is one side sees 1st OA, 6 million dollars and they're disappointed and the other side sees a talented hockey player that contributes to the team success. Even last year with his low numbers he helped us win.

I dare you to find a similar C who faced similar QoC while putting up similar #'s, who makes less than 5 million per year (on a recent contract). I grant that at 6mil he is slightly overpaid for his production. However for what he brings to the rink I doubt we could replace him for much less.

Drai at C is unproven, having Nuge in the lineup gives us options and that is huge. The 3C arguement is almost irrelevant because with Drai at c and Nuge at c, we essentially have 2 2nd lines, what remains to be seen is whether Drai spends much time at C and who sees the QoC.

Overall my opinion is that Nuge is slightly overpaid for where he's at, but really not much. If he develops at All (still pretty young ya know) or salaries rise at all, we're sitting pretty at C. You can't put a price tag on having three good C on your team, especially when it allows you to overload the 1st line by putting Drai at wing.

That said, as I mentioned in another post, he certainly has room for improvement. What grinds my gears is the constant "he's not performing like a 1OA.. 6 million dollars!! ..move him and get someone else" narrative that runs on here. He might be underperforming based on draft and salary, but he is a very important part of our team.

Been over this hundred times but the RNH fans just ignore the evidence. Woodguy posted RNH's numbers against tough competition this summer. They are simply not that good. He got punched around pretty badly by tough comp and he's nothing special at all in this area. Like all the rest of the Austin's he loves to create offense off the rush, isn't big enough or tough enough to do much on the cycle, and gets manhandled in his own zone by bigger, tougher players. It's a recipe for mediocre playoff numbers which he had: 0-4-4 -3

He's a finesse center with decent defensive skills but he's nothing terribly special which is why he's our 3rd line center. Probably his best asset is his PP skills (he should kill it on the 2nd unit PP) and overall he's a decent 2C a good team. RNH is only a top line C on a poor squad like the old Oilers. Decent value as a $4 million 2C behind a bigger 1C but poor value @ $6 million as a 3C behind Drai/McDavid. For the 50th time: RNH has some offensive skills - but Drai and McDavid are way better - and he's weak in areas where Drai and McDavid are less dominant (defense, physicality, faceoff). Simply over-paid and a poor fit for our needs at 3C going forward.

 

[Juxta Position]

So you're saying RNH isn't an elite player?

I don't think even the hard core fan boys would say that. Maybe, fan boys will be fan boys... but I doubt it.

I think where the discrepancy lies is one side sees 1st OA, 6 million dollars and they're disappointed and the other side sees a talented hockey player that contributes to the team success. Even last year with his low numbers he helped us win.

I dare you to find a similar C who faced similar QoC while putting up similar #'s, who makes less than 5 million per year (on a recent contract). I grant that at 6mil he is slightly overpaid for his production. However for what he brings to the rink I doubt we could replace him for much less.

Drai at C is unproven, having Nuge in the lineup gives us options and that is huge. The 3C arguement is almost irrelevant because with Drai at c and Nuge at c, we essentially have 2 2nd lines, what remains to be seen is whether Drai spends much time at C and who sees the QoC.

Overall my opinion is that Nuge is slightly overpaid for where he's at, but really not much. If he develops at All (still pretty young ya know) or salaries rise at all, we're sitting pretty at C. You can't put a price tag on having three good C on your team, especially when it allows you to overload the 1st line by putting Drai at wing.

That said, as I mentioned in another post, he certainly has room for improvement. What grinds my gears is the constant "he's not performing like a 1OA.. 6 million dollars!! ..move him and get someone else" narrative that runs on here. He might be underperforming based on draft and salary, but he is a very important part of our team.

well said.

 

[SomeDudeOTI]

Been over this hundred times but the RNH fans just ignore the evidence. Woodguy posted RNH's numbers against tough competition this summer. They are simply not that good. He got punched around pretty badly by tough comp and he's nothing special at all in this area. Like all the rest of the Austin's he loves to create offense off the rush, isn't big enough or tough enough to do much on the cycle, and gets manhandled in his own zone by bigger, tougher players. It's a recipe for mediocre playoff numbers which he had: 0-4-4 -3

He's a finesse center with decent defensive skills but he's nothing terribly special which is why he's our 3rd line center. Probably his best asset is his PP skills (he should kill it on the 2nd unit PP) and overall he's a decent 2C a good team. RNH is only a top line C on a poor squad like the old Oilers. Decent value as a $4 million 2C behind a bigger 1C but poor value @ $6 million as a 3C behind Drai/McDavid. For the 50th time: RNH has some offensive skills - but Drai and McDavid are way better - and he's weak in areas where Drai and McDavid are less dominant (defense, physicality, faceoff). Simply over-paid and a poor fit for our needs at 3C going forward.

Ok, so you ignored most of what I said, that's cool.

Still waiting for the replacement you would suggest.

I'll say it again, most of the league wishes they had our problems.

 

[SomeDudeOTI]

well said.

Thank you.

 

[Mr Positive]

I'd think that even RNH fans would say that he's got to be better if he wants to stay here. Just because someone is overpaid doesn't make them a bad player, and it should only be an issue if the cap is a problem

My opinion is that we are one year away from potential cap problems, but for right now we have space to keep RNH. So, I'm willing to forget all previous years and just see what he does this upcoming season. He does a lot of good things, but for him to be worth his cash he needs to be better both offensively and defensively. If he doesn't get the right spots in the depth chart to do those things, then that's too bad.

And yes, there is a way that RNH can stay here past this season. It's just that to justify his number, he can't just be worth 6 million. He's got to be worth 7 million or more, and last year he was worth maybe 5 million or even less. The odds of him being able to be worth 7 don't matter. What matters is if he does it or not, and there's no point in moving on from him now.