Ryan Johansen Saga III

[Crede777]

Aha! $50 and a Big Mac. So we Jackets fans, in our upstanding, virtuous, team-first ways, are perfectly willing to exploit the best player we perhaps have ever had. got it.


"antithetical to Blue Jackets hockey"? Is Blue Jackets hockey only paying guys when you absolutely have to? Shame.

There is no way to stretch even the league minimum contract into "exploitation" of a person. That's absurd.

There are two factors at play here. Teams try to get players for the bare minimum and players try to get contracts at the absolute maximum. Market leverage then occurs which usually causes the two sides to settle on an intermediate cost. To paraphrase John Davidson who knows infinitely more about hockey than we do, you don't just pay players a million or so more just because. So yes, the guy who defined Blue Jackets hockey himself is saying that you only pay players what you absolutely have to. Players have to have leverage, they have to be able to force you into paying more. This isn't a charity, it's a competitive business of which maximizing return on salary is key.

Hometown discounts are great, but you never hear of hometown surplus simply because a guy was a great team guy... No, it tends to be a one-way street and rightfully so.

 

[db2011]

1. Can he repeat last year.
2. Will he be able to take the pressure of being the guy.
3. If things go poorly, how will he react?

I've said all along i'd sign him at 4- 4.5 bridge deal and if he walks the walk,then the club needs to talk the talk on his extension.

I think he will be fine, but yes the Springfield incident and some of his comments make me wonder how well he actually would handle adversity. He had it easy last year, going forward will be a different story.


And I really hope he is here longer than JD. I'd like to have a productive #1C since this club has been waiting for one forever.

Thanks for your response. I don't see how your concerns are directly related to "character issues", but I understand your concerns and can't say I don't share them.

But they can be mitigated by a bridge deal. If they wind up being concerns that are founded, we cut him loose after 2 years (which will never happen because he's a fantastic player, but for arguments' sake).

As for JD, man, I really want to like the guy. He's such a likeable guy. But he blew a gasket, didn't he? He's trying to proves something for some reason and I'd sure like him to stop because in lots of ways he's a good addition to our team. I'd like both Jarmo and JD to establish themselves here as elite-level hockey minds who know how to ice a damn good team, but they're getting way too caught up in money and ego. They're a turn of the screw away from being top-notch.

 

[3074326]

They're getting caught up in doing their jobs. They are great hockey minds. This isn't an ego thing. They are treating this as any other management team should be expected to treat these negotiations. The publicity of it is the one thing that can rub people the wrong way, sure, but they shouldn't cave and give Johansen some absurd contract. I wouldn't want my team to do that.

 

[db2011]

Crede777, if you're going to be that uncritical of management in this impasse in which they've barely raised a finger to find common ground, it's hardly worth talking to you. Which is a shame because you often have good points.

Saying you'd gladly sign what is probably our best player ever for a fast food sandwich and fifty dollars though is callous enough regarding players to disqualify a fair amount of your position.

Come on.

 

[db2011]

They're getting caught up in doing their jobs. They are great hockey minds. This isn't an ego thing. They are treating this as any other management team should be expected to treat these negotiations. The publicity of it is the one thing that can rub people the wrong way, sure, but they shouldn't cave and give Johansen some absurd contract. I wouldn't want my team to do that.

This situation will go some ways towards proving they are great hockey minds or not. And NO ONE is advocating that they cave and give Johansen an "absurd contract".

Nonetheless, they're blowing it. They're holding firm to a crap offer that they haven't raised since the word go and it's going to deprive our team of an outstanding, franchise-making player.

 

[EDM]

JD did exactly what he should have done --he told the people of Columbus how far they went to try to sign Ryan, he drew a line in the sand as how far we will go and he effectively undercut an offer sheet by letting other GM's know how far they would have to go to get an effective offer sheet. He played it beautifully. I have to wonder if the people who are vetching about him have even been involved in high stakes multimillion dollar negotiations.

I like the guy a lot. He showed he is not just a robot but a man with a heart and a soul.

 

[WannabeFinn]

JD did exactly what he should have done --he told the people of Columbus how far they went to try to sign Ryan, he drew a line in the sand as how far we will go and he effectively undercut an offer sheet by letting other GM's know how far they would have to go to get an effective offer sheet. He played it beautifully. I have to wonder if the people who are fetching about him have even been involved in high stakes multimillion dollar negotiations.

I like the guy a lot. He showed he is not just a robot but a man with a heart and a soul.

 

[Handyy]

Frustrating to watch this happen to Columbus. This franchise never seems to catch a decent break, there's always something counter-productive and harmful for the season happening - or at least it seems that way. So frustrating, that even I took the time to write about it!

Going public about this is a risky move, but like EDM mentioned, by doing it this way they threw the agent's leverage effectively out of the window, while doing as low damage as possible for the relationship between Johansen and the team.

It will be interesting to see how Johansen himself reacts, but I'm hoping he's done listening to all that the agent says to him. Deals that are handed to him by Columbus are more than fair, so for him to keep his reputation around the league would be more important than asking for much more than the current offers.

Good luck Jackets for the upcoming season in any case!

 

[Wendy Clear]

JD did exactly what he should have done --he told the people of Columbus how far they went to try to sign Ryan, he drew a line in the sand as how far we will go and he effectively undercut an offer sheet by letting other GM's know how far they would have to go to get an effective offer sheet. He played it beautifully. I have to wonder if the people who are vetching about him have even been involved in high stakes multimillion dollar negotiations.

I like the guy a lot. He showed he is not just a robot but a man with a heart and a soul.

Right on...

 

[TaketheCannoli]

JD did exactly what he should have done --he told the people of Columbus how far they went to try to sign Ryan, he drew a line in the sand as how far we will go and he effectively undercut an offer sheet by letting other GM's know how far they would have to go to get an effective offer sheet. He played it beautifully. I have to wonder if the people who are vetching about him have even been involved in high stakes multimillion dollar negotiations.

I like the guy a lot. He showed he is not just a robot but a man with a heart and a soul.

I can't agree with this. Taking it public might have taken some fan based heat off of JD/JK, but it put Johansen in a situation where he has to publicly capitulate or demand a trade if he wants to play in the NHL before 2019.

I know many posters on here do some high level negotiations. As a negotiator, I have always believed it's important to try find a way that each side feels like they won something at the end, and definitely allows someone in a weaker position to save face.

Grinding an opponent out is reserved for the ice, the field, the mat etc. When you need to deal with people and organizations over and over, it's usually a bad decision to make them look bad.

 

[pete goegan]

...Saying you'd gladly sign what is probably our best player ever for a fast food sandwich and fifty dollars though is callous enough regarding players to disqualify a fair amount of your position.

Come on.

Gee, dave, don't you really think that proposal was maybe just a bit of hyperbole?

Come on.

I don't care what they pay the kid, nor for how long, just get the damn thing done so I don't have to read all this crap from both sides.

 

[pete goegan]

I can't agree with this. Taking it public might have taken some fan based heat off of JD/JK, but it put Johansen in a situation where he has to publicly capitulate or demand a trade if he wants to play in the NHL before 2019.

I know many posters on here do some high level negotiations. As a negotiator, I have always believed it's important to try find a way that each side feels like they won something at the end, and definitely allows someone in a weaker position to save face.

Grinding an opponent out is reserved for the ice, the field, the mat etc. When you need to deal with people and organizations over and over, it's usually a bad decision to make them look bad.

I agree, that was a huge mistake by JD. He could have made the points EDM liked without descending to that level of vitriol.

 

[EDM]

JD was drawing a bottom line. He was intending to make it clear that there was no further room to go on with the negotiations unless Joey comes down. That is what he SHOULD DO. At some point you have to let the other guy know he has gone too far. That burst from JD was to draw the line. RyJo has to back off. It is that simple. There does come a point where you have to let the opponent know you will go no further. This is it. Joey has to back down on his desire to be Stamkos or he sits. There comes a point where there aren't two "winners". JD made ti clear that Joey's team had found that point. Joey has to make a choice now. -- back off or sit the year out. It is up to him.

 

[EDM]

Remember JD is dealing with a 22 who had the gall to declare that a $ 3 million offer was a "slap interface". I think there are a lot of us who would like to get slapped that hard.

 

[TaketheCannoli]

JD was drawing a bottom line. He was intending to make it clear that there was no further room to go on with the negotiations unless Joey comes down. That is what he SHOULD DO. At some point you have to let the other guy know he has gone too far. That burst from JD was to draw the line. RyJo has to back off. It is that simple. There does come a point where you have to let the opponent know you will go no further. This is it. Joey has to back down on his desire to be Stamkos or he sits. There comes a point where there aren't two "winners". JD made ti clear that Joey's team had found that point. Joey has to make a choice now. -- back off or sit the year out. It is up to him.

That is easily done in private. I don't believe it should be done in a public forum.

 

[pete goegan]

Here is a post on the subject from Ryan Lambert at HockeyBuzz:

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-p...hansen-greedy--trending-topics-192219019.html

One doesn't have to agree with everything (I don't) to find the contribution useful.

 

[KJ Dangler]

Here is a post on the subject from Ryan Lambert at HockeyBuzz:

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-p...hansen-greedy--trending-topics-192219019.html

One doesn't have to agree with everything (I don't) to find the contribution useful.

He makes some good points in theory, if you read the 60 comments, nearly everyone is in agreement that johansen and his agent are greedy, trying to compare johansen to Kane and toews.

This gentleman had a great point.......

I did a little research to actually find a couple of comparable players to match up with Johansen. Tyler Seguin and Jeff Skinner are two close matches, same age, same stats for the best year of their entry deal. Seguin 29/38 in 81 games, Skinner 31/32 in 82 games, and Johansen 33/30 in 82 games. Seguin and Skinner both had better stats in their other seasons than Johansen, but we will stick with the best for each. They are all 22 year old 1st/2nd line centers with Skinner now playing wing on top line. Seguin and Skinner both signed 6 year deals for about 5.75 per after their entry deal. Using those comparables, it doesn't seem like the offers from Columbus were that far off the mark.

 

[IHeartZherdev*]

If we could get Joey for $50 and a big mac I'd be all for it. More money to spend on other players.

The only way we end up losing Johansen is if he decides he doesn't want to play hockey anymore. I'm not even sure Jarmo would trade him at this point even if Johansen asked.

The "me me me" approach Johansen is taking is antithetical to Blue Jackets hockey. I can't wait to see what happens when Jenner gets his first contract.

Nathan Horton's contract is more "me me me' than Joey's.

 

[stevo61]

He makes some good points in theory, if you read the 60 comments, nearly everyone is in agreement that johansen and his agent are greedy, trying to compare johansen to Kane and toews.

This gentleman had a great point.......

I did a little research to actually find a couple of comparable players to match up with Johansen. Tyler Seguin and Jeff Skinner are two close matches, same age, same stats for the best year of their entry deal. Seguin 29/38 in 81 games, Skinner 31/32 in 82 games, and Johansen 33/30 in 82 games. Seguin and Skinner both had better stats in their other seasons than Johansen, but we will stick with the best for each. They are all 22 year old 1st/2nd line centers with Skinner now playing wing on top line. Seguin and Skinner both signed 6 year deals for about 5.75 per after their entry deal. Using those comparables, it doesn't seem like the offers from Columbus were that far off the mark.

Well there should be some sort of adjustment for the cap rising. 6.5mil or so on the longer term deal would be fine but neither side probably feels that way

 

[CentreKeeper12]

He makes some good points in theory, if you read the 60 comments, nearly everyone is in agreement that johansen and his agent are greedy, trying to compare johansen to Kane and toews.

This gentleman had a great point.......

I did a little research to actually find a couple of comparable players to match up with Johansen. Tyler Seguin and Jeff Skinner are two close matches, same age, same stats for the best year of their entry deal. Seguin 29/38 in 81 games, Skinner 31/32 in 82 games, and Johansen 33/30 in 82 games. Seguin and Skinner both had better stats in their other seasons than Johansen, but we will stick with the best for each. They are all 22 year old 1st/2nd line centers with Skinner now playing wing on top line. Seguin and Skinner both signed 6 year deals for about 5.75 per after their entry deal. Using those comparables, it doesn't seem like the offers from Columbus were that far off the mark.

Problem is Joey wants to paid like a Towes or a Kane, who not only had better stats during their ELC years, they also had a cup to their name. Its messy

 

[Kashie14]

Well there should be some sort of adjustment for the cap rising. 6.5mil or so on the longer term deal would be fine but neither side probably feels that way

Skinner signed his deal in August 2012, before the lockout. At the time, the salary cap was projected as being $70.2 million. The shortened 2012-13 season had a prorated 70.2 million cap, too. The front office could easily argue using Skinner as a comparable that 5.5-5.75 for Johansen over 6 years is more than fair. They were close to that in their actual offer. I would suspect they would have caved for that amount in a counter offer.

It's the same thing with Duchene's contract which was signed with a projected 70.2 million cap too. Further, Couture signed for 2.875 AAV for two years under a 64.3 million cap, which is about 4.5%. 4.5% of the current cap is 3.1 million. Even if you used the post-lockout cap of 64.3 million as the denominator for Duchene's contract, that's still only 5.5% which translates to about 3.75 million under the current cap. Johansen really isn't getting lowballed compared to his peers, even 4 million flat would be pretty unprecedented. Jarmo/Davidson can't give Johansen over 4 million without that basically implying that all of the bridge contracts before his were big underpayments. That's what they mean by "We have to follow the CBA". Of course, you could certainly make the argument that all of them were in fact underpaid, but at this point with precedence set no front office is going to say that.

 

[cbjfaninmo]

JD did exactly what he should have done --he told the people of Columbus how far they went to try to sign Ryan, he drew a line in the sand as how far we will go and he effectively undercut an offer sheet by letting other GM's know how far they would have to go to get an effective offer sheet. He played it beautifully. I have to wonder if the people who are vetching about him have even been involved in high stakes multimillion dollar negotiations.

I like the guy a lot. He showed he is not just a robot but a man with a heart and a soul.

 

[KJ Dangler]

I honestly don't see how a deal gets done. Joey wants to be paid more than Dubinsky, which is over 5.7 mill per year . The jackets seem to be at 3 mill per year on short term. Which I think is a little low. I think most here would agree that maybe 4.2 to 4.5 mill per year would be fair for both sides. Problem is 4.2 mill is nowhere near 5.7 mill per season. He wants to be paid like a number one center, but in the playoffs, who was matched up against Crosby. Does anyone think that if the jackets caved and paid Joey more than Dubinsky, there wouldn't be a huge resentment there . I credit Dubinsky with the culture change here as much as Jd/jarmo. I remember when we started out slow last year , the interviews after the game, how Dubinsky ,wouldn't smile, he wouldn't sugarcoat the losses, and said it was unacceptable, and people needed to step up. Somebody floated out there the jackets could entertain a Ryan Oreilly for johansen trade if a deal can't be worked out, as both may have hard feelings towards their organizations. I just wish something would get done, so we could focus on a team that may be able to compete for a cup.

 

[KJ Dangler]

Skinner signed his deal in August 2012, before the lockout. At the time, the salary cap was projected as being $70.2 million. The shortened 2012-13 season had a prorated 70.2 million cap, too. The front office could easily argue using Skinner as a comparable that 5.5-5.75 for Johansen over 6 years is more than fair. They were close to that in their actual offer. I would suspect they would have caved for that amount in a counter offer.

It's the same thing with Duchene's contract which was signed with a projected 70.2 million cap too. Further, Couture signed for 2.875 AAV for two years under a 64.3 million cap, which is about 4.5%. 4.5% of the current cap is 3.1 million. Even if you used the post-lockout cap of 64.3 million as the denominator for Duchene's contract, that's still only 5.5% which translates to about 3.75 million under the current cap. Johansen really isn't getting lowballed compared to his peers, even 4 million flat would be pretty unprecedented. Jarmo/Davidson can't give Johansen over 4 million without that basically implying that all of the bridge contracts before his were big underpayments. That's what they mean by "We have to follow the CBA". Of course, you could certainly make the argument that all of them were in fact underpaid, but at this point with precedence set no front office is going to say that.

This is one of the best post yet, especially for people that think we should just offer 5.5 mill and get this done

 

[Jackets16]

This is one of the best post yet, especially for people that think we should just offer 5.5 mill and get this done

Agreed. Hopefully he posts that on the main board.