Ryan Johansen Saga III
- Thread starter Samkow
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He isn't a FA though, so that doesn't matter. What another team would pay him doesn't matter when he is a RFA. Unless someone signs him to an offer sheet, what another team would offer him just doesn't matter. I am sure some on here know exactly the teams who have the cap space and draft picks to sign him to an offer sheet, but I am guessing there aren't a lot who do.
oday, 04:29 PM
#994
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JacketsMilano57 View Post
Joey didnt have an AS game to play in over the last 2 years....
Who do you see being left off for Johansen? The Eastern conference has no shortage of all-star centers, from Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos, Bergeron, Datsyuk (regardless of what IHZ thinks), Giroux, to guys like the afforementioned Skinner, Backstrom, and Derek Stepan. Making the all-star team isn't an easy feat, and it's usually reserved for guys who have fanbases all around the country. Even though Datsyuk didn't have a tremendous year, do you really see him being left off the team in favor of an upstart? Whether or not we like it, the NHL is going to put guys on the all-star rosters who are going to put butts in seats and in front of TVs. Johansen isn't at that point in his career, just yet.
From the other thread, didnt get to respond. although the east maybe loaded, that doesn't automatically mean the NHL had an AS the last 2 years. the only Cs i would put ahead last year were the PA guys. Johansen had similiar numbers to Bergeron, also Datsyuk and Tavares were both injured before the olympics IIRC (I know pavel was, not 100% sure on Tavares) Last year very well could have been an AS year for Johansen.
#994
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Spokane, WA.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JacketsMilano57 View Post
Joey didnt have an AS game to play in over the last 2 years....
Who do you see being left off for Johansen? The Eastern conference has no shortage of all-star centers, from Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos, Bergeron, Datsyuk (regardless of what IHZ thinks), Giroux, to guys like the afforementioned Skinner, Backstrom, and Derek Stepan. Making the all-star team isn't an easy feat, and it's usually reserved for guys who have fanbases all around the country. Even though Datsyuk didn't have a tremendous year, do you really see him being left off the team in favor of an upstart? Whether or not we like it, the NHL is going to put guys on the all-star rosters who are going to put butts in seats and in front of TVs. Johansen isn't at that point in his career, just yet.
From the other thread, didnt get to respond. although the east maybe loaded, that doesn't automatically mean the NHL had an AS the last 2 years. the only Cs i would put ahead last year were the PA guys. Johansen had similiar numbers to Bergeron, also Datsyuk and Tavares were both injured before the olympics IIRC (I know pavel was, not 100% sure on Tavares) Last year very well could have been an AS year for Johansen.
CBJWerenski8
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Just guessing most of us ***** about being underpaid
$1.00 or less an hour, yet you want this guy to play for 1.5MM a year less than his counterparts & your ok with the team you support doing this. When we have Boll on the roster at more than this difference it makes me want to puke.
$1.00 or less an hour, yet you want this guy to play for 1.5MM a year less than his counterparts & your ok with the team you support doing this. When we have Boll on the roster at more than this difference it makes me want to puke.
So then why aren't the offer sheets building up then if its such a fantastic idea?
I want to pay him $4 million to $4.5 million per year. Who are his counterparts who are making $5.5 million to $6.0 million per year? I don't root for Johansen. I root for Columbus. Overpaying for a player, no matter how good they are, isn't good for the team.
CBJ Tiffin
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So Joey is not eligible to request arbitration. Does that mean the two sides are prohibited from agreeing to go to arbitration?
The only way it doesn't matter is if you want to wring every last bit of value out of this contract to the detriment of not only the organization's relationship to the player but to any other player thinking about Columbus as a place to sign/re-sign. Of course it matters.
On a technical level, it doesn't matter, but it matters.
Because offer sheets don't build up. Seriously, this has been addressed more than once previously. There are only a few teams even able to put out an offer sheet, even fewer that it makes sense for, and none that haven't heard Jarmo repeat that any offer sheet would be matched.
It is just bad business to overpay for anything and the NHL is a business. Why would Columbus pay Ryan $6 million when he can't get that from anyone else? Some of you are acting like it is disrespectful to pay him $3.5 - $4.0 million.
I think he should get more than 4. I don't necessarily think 4 if "disrespectful" but I do think, on the open market, he'd get a contract with better compensation than that. I don't understand the stinginess with regard to this contract, except as a power play by Jarmo. When other fans come in here with trade proposals for Joey and ask what our needs are, I always think that our needs are exactly what Joey gives us.
Yes, we have the lion's share of leverage and can probably get Joey's camp to eventually sign the hard bargain Jarmo (or Zito) is peddling. But why go scorched earth? Why not overpay a bit for a player who could wind up a perennial difference maker, and who we cultivated? Because he's Howson's boy and not JD/JK's? At this point, the bridge seems to be foregone, so any risk is only for 2 years. I just don't get the hardass stance. He's what we've wanted forever, why impose such strict conditions here?
Everybody seems to want this kid based on his "one good season", why are we being such tightwads about it?
And I don't think our prospect depth should factor in here, because we'll be lucky if any of the young kids manage to achieve what Joey has. He really seems (to me) to be just what we need, for now and for the foreseeable future.
Sorry for the double reply, but to your points, I don't think it's bad business at all, if joey achieves what last season indicates he could achieve. I'm not a business person, but I would venture that conventional business approaches don't apply seamlessly to pro-sports talent.
Which means we should pay him 6 million when no one else "can" because there may be a consensus that lots of other teams would if they could and we ought to show the kid we value as much as anyone else does, and preferably more. Just because he can't at this moment get that kind of contract doesn't mean that he doesn't deserve it, and in a vacuum would get it. Our management should take that into account.
Wendy Clear
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I hope it's a moot point, but the longer this drags out it's RyJo's camp who will buckle first. The player always needs the team more than the team needs the player, especially in the case of a young player. He's earned no rights (abr/UFA) and therefore has no leverage. You can't play hard-ball (and win) unless you're in a position of strength; he's not.
When it's all said and done, I'm sure the contract will pay him 500-750k more than the team wanted, yet that's like 2-2.5m less than he wanted.
When it's all said and done, I'm sure the contract will pay him 500-750k more than the team wanted, yet that's like 2-2.5m less than he wanted.
Nanabijou
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All of this has been bandied about ad nauseum, but one reason to not overpay is if you think the contract could affect Joey's development. Some people believe that it is a possibility and some don't. It appears likely that JD/JK fall in the former group.
Switching gears a bit, we've been thinking of comparison players/contracts the last while and one that I've been thinking more about is the Paul Stastny.
During his first 2 years in the league he had 78 pts in 82 games and 71 pts in 66 games -he was also nominated for the Calder in his rookie year. I was living in Colorado at the time and there was a lot of excitement about this kid being the future of the Avalanche. Part-way into his 3rd season, he signed a pretty nice extension for 5 years and 6.6 M AAV. Keep in mind that he was close to a PPG player when he signed (and had a more consistent track record than Joey at that point), but the Avalanche no doubt were also paying for his potential. It was thought that he'd maybe even grow to be a top 5 or 10 elite player in the league.
Now, Stastny has been a good player the last 5 years. But, he never really took the next step forward and instead took a step back IMO. He became a solid 50-60 point player rather than increasing/maintaining his PPG pace of his early years and achieving elite status.
It seemed like a reasonable contract at the time, and it wasn't horrible in hindsight, but I think most people agree he was a little overpaid the last 5 years. It seemed like the Avalanche agreed when it came time for the third contract and were looking for a bit of a pay cut. At that point, Stastny seemed pretty adamant that he wasn't taking a pay cut and St. Louis obliged (4 x 7 million).
No one knows whether the big contract affected Stastny's development and I'm not arguing that point here. I'm saying that, like Joey, Stastny seemed like a sure-fire investment. While I don't doubt that Joey will be at minimum a 50-60 pt player like Stastny has been, I think he can be more and I'd like him to have that drive to get there.
Finally, the other point (related to david's post) is that even if the Jackets open their wallets for Joey, there is no guarantee that it will be taken into consideration by him and his agent down the road. Like Stastny, he could want a pay raise regardless of whether his play kept on the same trajectory. With the way salary arbitration works, it would be pretty hard for the Jackets to decrease his pay on his next contract if he does take a step back. So, yes, there are reasons for why the Jackets don't want to overpay this contract that go beyond improving the bottom line for McConnell the next two years.
Let's say he was a UFA.
Team A offered him $4 million
Team B offered him $4.1 million
A lot of other teams would offer him $5.5 million, but they don't have cap space.
Should we offer him $5.6 million? You don't outbid yourself. This is a business. Not only that, but this offer sets a precedent for all other players in our system. If we give him $5.5 million for one good season then most players are going to ask for that if they have a good agent.
With all due respect this is just downright silly. I had to work and prove myself for over a decade to get myself into the range of "fair" for my knowledge and abilities.
Now to what I really wanted to post. I saw the message again about the pressure being on the other side if camp starts and he's not on the roster. I wonder what kind of pressure Johansen will feel if Wennberg, as an example, has an awesome camp?
Jaxs
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I was thinking this too. For me personally, nothing motivates me more than knowing that I am replaceable.
CBJ Tiffin
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A two year deal lets you know you are replaceable? Compared to what? An 8 year? Many a player has been bought out.
No idea where you are going with this.
Blue Dot
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True about the risks.
However, in the Stastny case there were other factors also. Beyond him looking like a break out star, he was a second generation AVS. He was a big part of selling the fan base on the future and they had loads of cap room.
When the the re-up came they had other guys that were the future and while he was a player who is solid, did great in the playoffs for them, inking him would have hurt them long term.
In Columbus I think the only real risk is in paying RJ is it opens the door for everyone to feel like they want more and that CLS will cave to demands.
Otherwise I think if he never does make it to that next tier, they can still trade him easy enough.
I hope he gets signed and I don't think if it's for 1.5 million above what he is worth due to upside that it will truly hurt the Jackets over the term of the deal. Just my opinion though.
CBJ Tiffin
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Yes. 2-year vs. longer term. If the org is only willing to sign you to a 2-year deal, that tells you about their level of commitment to you.
lol, yeah right....
Because a two year bridge deal showed Subban Montreal's level of commitment.
Couldn't disagree more. There are plenty of ways of showing a lack of commitment. Signing a player to anything more than a one year deal is not one of those ways.
CBJ Tiffin
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Then what did it say? "Hey, we REALLY want you here, but not enough to sign you long term?"
That kind of treatment would indeed motivate me... to find a new employer.
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