RW Sergei Tolchinsky - CSKA Moscow, KHL (2013 undrafted; CAR signed)
- Thread starter MrGeno101
- Start date
Has that ever happened before where a guy slipped through the draft only to be signed 2 months later? Its like there were 700 guys better than him, 2 months later, he is one of maybe 10 guys out of those 700 to be signed... Wow teams really dropped the ball there. I think they were turned off by his lack of production in SSM, but were then blown away at rookie camps. He was jaw dropping at Rangers camp. BTW he was projected in the top 3 Russians his age coming a few years back, he was a big deal. Just supremely skilled. Bure esque - quickness.
Vagrant
The Czech Condor
People are forgetting a lot of waterbug russian players that had success in the NHL. If the best comparable you can think of is Nathan Gerbe, who is actually playing respectable hockey in the NHL right now, then you might want to brush up a bit. Sergei Samsonov won a Calder trophy at not much bigger than Tolchinsky. Maxim Afinogenov had a lot of productive, albeit frustrating, seasons in the NHL. Stanislav Chistov would have been another fantastic example if not for personal problems. Pavel Bure himself wasn't all that big either.
You're always nothing until you're something. Theo Fluery wasn't ever going to get a chance until he made it. Same for Martin St. Louis. Everybody can talk all they want about these guys, but skill and work ethic are the two requisites for making an NHL career regardless of size. If you have the heart, you can have it all. I am constantly amazed at how much people think that 2 or 3 inches of height is the make or break line for NHL careers. If he were 5-10 or 5-11 we wouldn't be hearing a darn thing about his height. But if you've seen this kid in person, then you know what he brings to a hockey game. He's jaw dropping talented. He has also shown his character and his dedication to a future in North America by not going back to Russia after he went undrafted. Instead, sucked it up and went to camps and decided he would give people the chance to get to know him personally and to watch him play up close. In the days where Russian players are derided for doing what's "comfortable", Tolchinsky took the path less traveled and earned his contract and honored his commitment to his OHL team. He would have been welcomed back to Russia with open arms to start what would and might still be a lucrative future in the KHL and an international tournament star in the making but he bypassed that easy path and decided he wanted to show his talents here. All this after going undrafted and having every NHL team say 7 times, you're not our guy here.
He lacks nothing to be a productive player in the NHL. I don't have a crystal ball, but if I was a betting man then Tolchinsky is the kind of kid that I would put my money on. He has the heart of a lion.
You're always nothing until you're something. Theo Fluery wasn't ever going to get a chance until he made it. Same for Martin St. Louis. Everybody can talk all they want about these guys, but skill and work ethic are the two requisites for making an NHL career regardless of size. If you have the heart, you can have it all. I am constantly amazed at how much people think that 2 or 3 inches of height is the make or break line for NHL careers. If he were 5-10 or 5-11 we wouldn't be hearing a darn thing about his height. But if you've seen this kid in person, then you know what he brings to a hockey game. He's jaw dropping talented. He has also shown his character and his dedication to a future in North America by not going back to Russia after he went undrafted. Instead, sucked it up and went to camps and decided he would give people the chance to get to know him personally and to watch him play up close. In the days where Russian players are derided for doing what's "comfortable", Tolchinsky took the path less traveled and earned his contract and honored his commitment to his OHL team. He would have been welcomed back to Russia with open arms to start what would and might still be a lucrative future in the KHL and an international tournament star in the making but he bypassed that easy path and decided he wanted to show his talents here. All this after going undrafted and having every NHL team say 7 times, you're not our guy here.
He lacks nothing to be a productive player in the NHL. I don't have a crystal ball, but if I was a betting man then Tolchinsky is the kind of kid that I would put my money on. He has the heart of a lion.
boris4c
Quid infantes sumus.
There are times I don't understand the draft at all.
Charles Sarault is another one who never got drafted, despite 108 points in 68 games in his last season in the OHL. He is now with the Norfolk Admirals in the AHL after the Anaheim Ducks noticed him, and he has got 5 points in 6 games so far.
Charles Sarault is another one who never got drafted, despite 108 points in 68 games in his last season in the OHL. He is now with the Norfolk Admirals in the AHL after the Anaheim Ducks noticed him, and he has got 5 points in 6 games so far.
Happens all the time, Adam Courchaine, J.P. Anderson, Martin Jones and Michael Sgarbossa for some examples. You're looking at it wrong, drafted prospects the teams have years to sign and keep their rights so there's no rush to sign them, they have no rights to undrafted players and could lose the kid to somebody else in the draft the next year if they don't sign them by September after the draft they didn't get picked it. It's not surprising to see bubble draft guys who go undrafted get contracts while many drafted players don't get contracts right away, gotta get those rights to extra prospects who didn't get drafted.
Don't disagree with the fact he could have success but your examples weren't the best. Afinogenov first of all is 6'0, Chistov 5'10, and Bure 5'10-5'11 while being twice as skilled as Tolchinsky who might be 5'6 without skates if lucky. The only comparable in height was Samsonov who was built like a fire hydrant with a low center of gravity and massive legs much like St. Louis.
Vagrant
The Czech Condor
Well first of all, I don't have any reason to believe that every single outlet that has Tolchinsky between 5'7" and 5'9" would be willing to lie on his behalf. I think the smallest we can assume that he is would be the former, but even that measurement might be inaccurate. I would hedge and say he's between those two numbers. Eliteprospects has him at 5'9". The OHL website has him at 5'9". The Hurricanes website has him at 5'8". I haven't seen a single outlet list him at 5'6". Much less any shorter than that. I know numbers can be fudged, but I doubt anybody would go to that much trouble to hide his true height. Even just by an eye test he looks bigger than Gerbe by a decent bit. Fortunately had the chance to see them both as they're both in the system.
I didn't realize that Afinogenov was six feet tall. He always seemed smaller than that to me. But truthfully, at the end of the day we're talking about .... two inches of height? Can you really allow that to be the difference between having success in the NHL and not? Is it not just as likely that the NHL chooses not to employ shorter players who are skilled to play bottom six roles simply by virtue of conventional wisdom and not by merit? These small players have to stick in the Top 6 or they don't stick at all. That's a tall task, no pun intended, for any prospect. So many guys never pan out. I'm not entirely sure it's just a height thing here. If you're limited in any way as to where you can play in a lineup, that lack of versatility will prevent you from sticking in a lot of cases. Linus Omark is a fine example. I can't be convinced that he's not talented enough to play in the NHL, but he's not been productive in a Top 6 capacity. That puts him out of a job.
The comparison to those players was mostly stylistic. The truth is that Tolchinsky has every bit of the puckhandling skills as a few of those guys, Bure excluded for obvious reasons, and can fire the puck just as well. He's an absolute offensive force. I've never had the good fortune of seeing a player like him go undrafted, except for potentially Kevin Roy in his draft season when he ripped the USHL apart in a record setting year. Same concerns there. John Gaudreau and Rocco Grimaldi are other guys who are similar skillsets. Though I do believe that Tolchinsky is bigger than all those examples save Roy but not by much.
There is something in his game that will not translate well at the next level and I saw it yet again last night. While he does get some assists, he always tries to do it all himself. He doesn't use his linemates nearly enough. He can get away with it now in junior because his puck skills are so much above most others in the OHL, but he will suffer in the AHL and for sure in the NHL. While there are obvious differences between the 2, on ice it is very much like what Yakupov is doing right now in Edmonton and that is trying to do too much on his own. Yak got away with it in junior too and also his first season in the NHL, but players/teams make adjustments and now it is up to Yak to make some adjustments.
I see almost every game here in the Soo and am a big supporter of Sergei, so I am not slamming him at all. I sincerely hope he makes it all the way and succeeds in the NHL. It is just an observation. I actually think he will have to make adjustments by this year's playoffs since multiple games in a row against the same team will allow them to make adjustments to his style.
As for heart, last night he took a slap shot off his skate and went down quick, but got right back up and made it to the bench for a change instead of staying down. At the end of it, he was literally crawling the last few feet back to the bench, as it happened on the opposite side of the ice that the benches are on. The easy play would have been to just stay down. Kudos to the kid for that, it showed a lot.
I see almost every game here in the Soo and am a big supporter of Sergei, so I am not slamming him at all. I sincerely hope he makes it all the way and succeeds in the NHL. It is just an observation. I actually think he will have to make adjustments by this year's playoffs since multiple games in a row against the same team will allow them to make adjustments to his style.
As for heart, last night he took a slap shot off his skate and went down quick, but got right back up and made it to the bench for a change instead of staying down. At the end of it, he was literally crawling the last few feet back to the bench, as it happened on the opposite side of the ice that the benches are on. The easy play would have been to just stay down. Kudos to the kid for that, it showed a lot.
Loffer
Registered User
- Sep 22, 2011
- 3,937
- 423
Tolchinsky should indeed use his line mates more and keep the plays more on the simple and stupid level -- but he is not alone with the tendency to do it all. And while its a bad habit one can learn off of it though it may take some time and exposure to a higher level of competition.
But it's not that simple equation; there's a complicated interaction involved in the competence in question.
Namely, this "bad habit" has its merits as well: look at Drouin and you can see that while he might be too fancy sometimes or try to deke too many players -- its not only a matter of "doing it all" but of"making it work by doing it all the time".
It is a matter of maintainence: of keeping the rhythm and touch, maintaining the ability.
You need to find a balance in here and it's a delicate endeavour since you cannot take the style or rhythm away altogether without eliminating the art itself in the process. To restore the art you must embrace the style. But somehow adjust or translate it to an other level.
It is as if re-inventing the art and style - you must revise the art and find a new expression to its "inner rhythm". Indeed, the crucial idea is that the rhythm is actually an inner process, and its outward expression is merely - an expression.
What is the secret of mastery? Keeping it alive even when it is not observable.
To be more mundane, it's a step wise process of mastering an art: internalizing an initially external skill to the point it will take a mental shape called expertise.
Thus, one should not be worried about this tendency of "being too fancy" or "trying to make it all" as such since it's only one natural step in the development of a mastery of one kind. Rather this tendency is a token of talent and art. - The only relevant question is: is the person willing to take the next step and then the next to reach the highest level of competence -- or will he rather cultivate his skill in such an environment which allows him to stay in his familiar "comfort zone" without any need for taking the next steps involved in learning the true mastery of an art of one kind.
But it's not that simple equation; there's a complicated interaction involved in the competence in question.
Namely, this "bad habit" has its merits as well: look at Drouin and you can see that while he might be too fancy sometimes or try to deke too many players -- its not only a matter of "doing it all" but of"making it work by doing it all the time".
It is a matter of maintainence: of keeping the rhythm and touch, maintaining the ability.
You need to find a balance in here and it's a delicate endeavour since you cannot take the style or rhythm away altogether without eliminating the art itself in the process. To restore the art you must embrace the style. But somehow adjust or translate it to an other level.
It is as if re-inventing the art and style - you must revise the art and find a new expression to its "inner rhythm". Indeed, the crucial idea is that the rhythm is actually an inner process, and its outward expression is merely - an expression.
What is the secret of mastery? Keeping it alive even when it is not observable.
To be more mundane, it's a step wise process of mastering an art: internalizing an initially external skill to the point it will take a mental shape called expertise.
Thus, one should not be worried about this tendency of "being too fancy" or "trying to make it all" as such since it's only one natural step in the development of a mastery of one kind. Rather this tendency is a token of talent and art. - The only relevant question is: is the person willing to take the next step and then the next to reach the highest level of competence -- or will he rather cultivate his skill in such an environment which allows him to stay in his familiar "comfort zone" without any need for taking the next steps involved in learning the true mastery of an art of one kind.
Cardiac Jerks
Asinine & immoral
Bump to share this sick goal. Wish we could post it in the main board so everyone can see it. Just unreal.
TheOllieC
cajun filet
Yes and no in regards to looking at it from the wrong point. I see your point, however teams could have done the same to him if they weren't certain - let him play a few more years until he matures and is more of a certain thing before signing him, - happens often.
But that's not the case here. It was no later than one month after he was passed over that he dazzled rookie camps. Not like he was passed over several drafts, scouts new they screwed up and he would be scooped in the subsequent draft. Both teams camps he attended were trying to sign him. Scouts new he was high profile coming into the draft, in Russia it was expected he was even to be a 1st round pick years leading up to the draft. I just don't see 1 month making a difference in interest regarding the player the way it did. If he wasn't showing enough through a season in the OHL what does a one week rookie camp do to change that?
It just seems too weird, I feel that there should be some type of pre-draft camp where players are assembled into teams and scrimmage and go through workouts etc - open concept where all the teams have access to viewings and interaction of all the guys on and off the ice. Replace the draft combine, change the process a bit - get the guys doing on/off ice stuff like a mock training camp - something more practical.
DaveG
Noted Jerk
So basically something a bit closer to the NFL combine (which has many of the same exercises but also incorporates individual position drills) then what's in place right now? Not a bad idea.
I am a little confused as to how an undrafted 1995 player can be signed so quickly after the 2013 draft. Why does he not have to go back into the 2014 class as an overager? Is there an exception for Russians, camp invites, or is this par for the course? Anyone with information that could help clear this up would be greatly appreciated...
Anyone passed over in the draft can be signed right after (or after camp invite?). Since most do not get signed they would go back into the draft but Carolina did something that is fairly uncommon and signed an undrafted player right after his draft year.
Yea, I'm pretty sure that you have to at least be invited to rookie camp and then signed by that team. Vancouver did the same with Evan McEneny
Tolchinsky currently 7th in OHL scoring with 44 points in 22 games. From what I've seen his linemates are crap and he doesn't get any PP time. Have only watched like 3 of his games though.
My bold prediction of the day is that he's going to win the Calder in a couple years if CAR doesn't rush him.
My bold prediction of the day is that he's going to win the Calder in a couple years if CAR doesn't rush him.
saw him the other night, by the looks of it he's on the 2nd PP. was played sparingly at times. Was easily the best player on the ice, lightning quick, made the defenceman fall 2 different times with super agile turns and drew 2 penalties. Super lightning quick hands, he even goes right through traffic. At times you think he is going to get killed, but he somehow gets through with his elusiveness. Takes a hell of a beating out there from the big guys, including a lot of stick work.
I haven't seen a player with lightning quick hands like his since Bure, just doesn't own Bure's foot speed.
I haven't seen a player with lightning quick hands like his since Bure, just doesn't own Bure's foot speed.
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