RW Kaapo Kakko - TPS, Liiga (2019 Draft) Part 4

[Ippenator]

Nice play from him for the tying goal assist. Otherwise not a really special game again at this level. He needs to be clearly more dominating and especially more productive in these games to show that he truly is an all time top Finnish prospect. So far I’m still not seeing it. But lets see. Only time will tell the truth after all.

 

[Hokinaittii]

Nice play from him for the tying goal assist. Otherwise not a really special game again at this level. He needs to be clearly more dominating and especially more productive in these games to show that he truly is an all time top Finnish prospect. So far I’m still not seeing it. But lets see. Only time will tell the truth after all.

Who really cares who was the best player at 18? It's all about the development after that.

 

[Polar Bear]

As long as he continues to show his brilliance at times I am more than pleased. You can't expect him to absolutely dominate like you would in the U18.

For this game specifically, that was a hell of a pass/assist.

 

[The Crypto Guy]

 

[Polar Bear]

Not sure if anyone has the clip either, but Kakko also provided a great screen on the following goal, really showing his physicality and hockey IQ for his age.

These are the performances I enjoy seeing and can't ask much more of with the team he has. Don't make mistakes and show off your brilliance a few times.

 

[Ippenator]

Who really cares who was the best player at 18? It's all about the development after that.

Which no one can be sure at all how it will go in the future. Development pace and the ceiling are very, very difficult to estimate. It is really more like kind of a guess when estimating how these are after all for a young player.

True superstar potential youngsters have been usually able to produce relatively well at this level when his age. I need to see clearly better play and especially consistent production to change my mind on his superstar potential.

Some of you just don’t get it. I’m just calling him out for his play at this level, as it is a very good and important level to see how well a youngster can play against men. It is better quality and higher pace than any other level or league except the NHL.

Good that he anyway got some production. He needs to still continue producing and rather have a bit better production to be really impressive and showing very high potential.

 

[Polar Bear]

Which no one can be sure at all how it will go in the future. Development pace and the ceiling are very, very difficult to estimate. It is really more like kind of a guess when estimating how these are after all for a young player.

True superstar potential youngsters have been usually able to produce relatively well at this level when his age. I need to see clearly better play and especially consistent production to change my mind on his superstar potential.

Some of you just don’t get it. I’m just calling him out for his play at this level, as it is a very good and important level to see how well a youngster can play against men. It is better quality and higher pace than any other level or league except the NHL.

Good that he anyway got some production. He needs to still continue producing and rather have a bit better production to be really impressive and showing very high potential.

Already did so in Liiga, and in record fashion. Moreover, should I post the list of great prospects who did meh at the HWC and still wound up great? The MOST important thing for an 18 year old in the HWC on a less than stellar team of veterans is to not f*** up an showcase your brilliance a couple of times a game. Kakko has clearly been doing that in the practice games.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

Some of you just don’t get it. I’m just calling him out for his play at this level, as it is a very good and important level to see how well a youngster can play against men. It is better quality and higher pace than any other level or league except the NHL.

Everyone gets what you're saying.

Nobody respects your opinion though for reasons that have been explained to you multiple times by nearly every person that's come into this thread.

There's nothing you can do to turn people's minds around because you have put forth many disingenuous arguments, used extremely poor reasoning and demonstrated an inherent bias too many times. Even when you raise a point that is fair, it is usually buried by plenty of points that are not.

Is it fair to think that Kakko will top out at a 50-60 pt NHLer? Yes. Have you effectively presented an argument to support this? Rarely and it's usually tainted by lots of poor argumentation and shoddy reasoning. I'm not even saying anything about my opinion here. I'm just saying when you read what everyone is saying in response to you it becomes very obvious.

Until you learn how to raise fair points people will continue to openly dislike your posts.

 

[Hokinaittii]

Which no one can be sure at all how it will go in the future. Development pace and the ceiling are very, very difficult to estimate. It is really more like kind of a guess when estimating how these are after all for a young player.

True superstar potential youngsters have been usually able to produce relatively well at this level when his age. I need to see clearly better play and especially consistent production to change my mind on his superstar potential.

Some of you just don’t get it. I’m just calling him out for his play at this level, as it is a very good and important level to see how well a youngster can play against men. It is better quality and higher pace than any other level or league except the NHL.

Good that he anyway got some production. He needs to still continue producing and rather have a bit better production to be really impressive and showing very high potential.

There are stats and accomplishments to back up the claim that he is one of the best prospects ever come from Finland. You can always nitpick who was the best but pretty much everything points at him being right there with guys like Aho, Barkov, Laine and Rantanen. So when you have managed to keep similar pace as the guys before you at 18, it's not really rocket science to see he has a good future ahead of him.

Excluding Laine, which other players have played in men's national team before their NHL draft and scored higher than 0,5 PPG in those games? Excactly. There aren't many "true superstar potential youngsters" who have done it before Kakko and Laine.

 

[Ippenator]

There are stats and accomplishments to back up the claim that he is one of the best prospects ever come from Finland. You can always nitpick who was the best but pretty much everything points at him being right there with guys like Aho, Barkov, Laine and Rantanen. So when you have managed to keep similar pace as the guys before you at 18, it's not really rocket science to see he has a good future ahead of him.

Excluding Laine, which other players have played in men's national team before their NHL draft and scored higher than 0,5 PPG in those games? Excactly. There aren't many "true superstar potential youngsters" who have done it before Kakko and Laine.

And I never ever said that I doubt that he will not have a good future in the NHL. I just haven’t seen good enough play to think of his potential as more than a good NHL player. He might become better than that, but he just hasn’t showed it on this level that he is playing at right now, which is clearly higher level than Liiga is, which his lack of production is clearly showing. It’s not like he has been playing in a bottom six role without any power play opportunities. No, he has played in a top six role and with a lot of time on the power play. Because of this his production has been disappointing in these pre WHC games. I’m simply expecting better play from him, but just not unfortunately seeing it from him at this level.

And I never claimed that there has been more than two or three Finnish prospects of around his age, that have had superstar level potential. Just Barkov and Laine, if you count only draft season. and also Aho, if you count the next season after the draft. Rantanen has become close to a superstar player without having exactly that high potential at that age, but developing extremely well arterwards, and Barkov is the only Finn who has clearly reached superstar class with the level that he played the latter half of the season.

Aho looks like destined to be in the superstar class at some point, as well as does Rantanen. And if Laine can fix his physical issues, he might have the chance to do it too. Will Kakko be able to do that too? Maybe so, but the higher level he has played at so far, the clearer the drop has been with the class of his play.

Liiga is clearly worse than international hockey, even when talking about pre WHC tournament hockey. But sure, if you really believe that Liiga has held it’s class even through the last few years, then you probably truly believe in Kakko being an unbelievable talent. But what should tell you about the pretty awful state that Liiga is really at, is how dominant producers line Haapala and Suomela have been producing much more than Kakko in regular season, and yet neither of them can’t really produce much even in the AHL.

And I will not bother answering posts (or even reading to the end) that try to analyse or judge me as a poster. If people disagree with me and want to say something, then simply post your opinion on Kakko and how it disagrees from mine. So what if we disagree? That’s how it can be on an internet discussion forum. Not a bad thing at all.

 

[Polar Bear]

I thought we got over this crap a few pages ago, please no more...

Watched the entire play now of the Kakko assist. Absolutely brilliant, it's moments like those against men at his age which showcase how special of a talent he is.

 

[fr9dd9]

I thought we got over this crap a few pages ago, please no more...

Watched the entire play now of the Kakko assist. Absolutely brilliant, it's moments like those against men at his age which showcase how special of a talent he is.

Yeah, and u can actually see how he starts to skate towards the direction the puck will bounce even before the shot gets fired, if he wouldnt have dunne that he would not been able to reach the puck in time and make that pass. Thats hes IQ resulting in a goal.

 

[Hokinaittii]

Liiga is clearly worse than international hockey, even when talking about pre WHC tournament hockey. But sure, if you really believe that Liiga has held it’s class even through the last few years, then you probably truly believe in Kakko being an unbelievable talent. But what should tell you about the pretty awful state that Liiga is really at, is how dominant producers line Haapala and Suomela have been producing much more than Kakko in regular season, and yet neither of them can’t really produce much even in the AHL.

Just because Aho, Laine or Rantanen couldn't outproduce Kakko in Liiga doesn't necessary mean the league has become worse than it was 3-5 years ago.

 

[Ippenator]

Just because Aho, Laine or Rantanen couldn't outproduce Kakko in Liiga doesn't necessary mean the league has become worse than it was 3-5 years ago.

That’s not at all what I’m basing my opinion on. I’m basing it mostly on the eye test of how Liiga play looks like compared to the games played between national teams. It has changed really so much every year, that I have started even seriously thinking of ending my Liiga subscription after his season. Most games are so bad to watch that my eyes bleed and my head hurts, and I have found myself more and more often quitting watching games way before they have even finishd. The difference is so clear and visible when I compare Liiga play with international level of play. And the difference can be also usually seen in how the top Liiga player’s productions really take a hard dip, when they start playing the international level games.

 

[Polar Bear]

Plzzzzzz no more.

 

[fr9dd9]

That’s not at all what I’m basing my opinion on. I’m basing it mostly on the eye test of how Liiga play looks like compared to the games played between national teams. It has has changed really so much every year, that I have started even seriously thinking of ending my Liiga subscription after his season. Most games are so bad to watch that my eyes bleed and my head hurts, and I have found myself more and more often quitting watching games way before they have even finishd. The difference is so clear and visible when I compare Liiga play with international level of play. And the difference can be also usually seen in how the top Liiga player’s productions really take a hard dip, when they start playing the international level games.

Well, I feelt like that watching Team finlands two games against denmark and norway. Also live in sweden and watch some SHL from time to time, and I have that feeling there aswell. Oh and I watch alot of NHL and I get that feeling sometimes aswell. If I look back all the way to 2009 where Lehterä scored impressive 69 points in liiga and then look at hes other seasons after that in higher leagues he really never scored in a much better pace for the most part then 0.5ppg. I saw alot of those examples on my way back to 2009, then I just stoped, cuz I just didnt notice any differances. So what makes you say liiga is much worse now then 10 years ago? could it also be that you have maybe started watching alot more nhl then back then? or that you have starting to get more picky?

 

[Hokinaittii]

That’s not at all what I’m basing my opinion on. I’m basing it mostly on the eye test of how Liiga play looks like compared to the games played between national teams. It has has changed really so much every year, that I have started even seriously thinking of ending my Liiga subscription after his season. Most games are so bad to watch that my eyes bleed and my head hurts, and I have found myself more and more often quitting watching games way before they have even finishd. The difference is so clear and visible when I compare Liiga play with international level of play. And the difference can be also usually seen in how the top Liiga player’s productions really take a hard dip, when they start playing the international level games.

I get what you are saying but the league has been crap to watch for more than 5 years already. Nothing has drastically changed in the last few years, other than teams have started to abandon the trap zone hockey (there is still some of it left) which back then made the games even less exciting to watch unless you had a team or player to root for.

It's true that top liiga producers have hardly ever become regulars in the NHL, but that's something that has always been the case so it doesn't really fit with you using it as an argument in this case.

 

[Hischier and Hughes]

I thought we got over this crap a few pages ago, please no more...

Watched the entire play now of the Kakko assist. Absolutely brilliant, it's moments like those against men at his age which showcase how special of a talent he is.

It doesnt make that much of a difference that hes playing men when hes the size of one already - in terms of being #1 vs #2

 

[Polar Bear]

You can argue that Liiga has decreased in top-end quality over time, but it's really naive to argue that it's decreased from the point Laine was a prospect to where Kakko is now. If you try to argue as such, I think it's just being used as a tool to try and discredit Kakko's record breaking season as "evidence" that he didn't do well this season in a men's league, which is just asinine.

 

[Polar Bear]

It doesnt make that much of a difference that hes playing men when hes the size of one already - in terms of being #1 vs #2

It does, in the sense that at this young of an age his body can still mature and get even stronger, and that his hockey IQ and skills against men are matched, if not ahead of them. It's a lot easier to see the comparison against men versus kids his own age, which isn't a knock on Hughes at all, who I have 1, by the way.

 

[Hischier and Hughes]

It does, in the sense that at this young of an age his body can still mature and get even stronger, and that his hockey IQ and skills against men are matched, if not ahead of them. It's a lot easier to see the comparison against men versus kids his own age, which isn't a knock on Hughes at all, who I have 1, by the way.

For sure, developmentally it has its perks and he seems to be coming along nicely. I was more making the point because some folks are using the fact that he plays vs men as a main contributor to his being #1 over Hughes - which I disagree with.

Id like to see Hughes play in the Mens WC for obvious reasons but if he doesnt I dont see it affecting his draft position much at all

 

[Polar Bear]

For sure, developmentally it has its perks and he seems to be coming along nicely. I was more making the point because some folks are using the fact that he plays vs men as a main contributor to his being #1 over Hughes - which I disagree with.

Id like to see Hughes play in the Mens WC for obvious reasons but if he doesnt I dont see it affecting his draft position much at all

I think everyone knows it's Hughes 1 and Kakko 2, and it's been like that since the lottery was concluded. Kakko certainly has made it a lot closer than it was a year ago, but I don't think any GM actually has the balls to not pick Hughes 1, who I think also has a slightly higher ceiling (but also a lower floor).

 

[Hischier and Hughes]

I think everyone knows it's Hughes 1 and Kakko 2, and it's been like that since the lottery was concluded. Kakko certainly has made it a lot closer than it was a year ago, but I don't think any GM actually has the balls to not pick Hughes 1, who I think also has a slightly higher ceiling (but also a lower floor).

I think both’s floors are around 55-60pts, I see both being top end talents in the big league. Id say both have top-20 player potential with Hughes having that edge for a ceiling to be a #3-5 player and Kakko to be a #7-10 player

 

[Polar Bear]

I think both’s floors are around 55-60pts, I see both being top end talents in the big league. Id say both have top-20 player potential with Hughes having that edge for a ceiling to be a #3-5 player and Kakko to be a #7-10 player

That's fair, but I only say Kakko has the higher floor because of already having the NHL physical maturity/size. Not saying this will happen AT ALL, but if Hughes can't make it for some crazy reason due to his size, the floor is going to be lower than that. That being said, I don't see any universe where Hughes isn't at least a very good 1C.

 

[kelsier]

I think everyone knows it's Hughes 1 and Kakko 2, and it's been like that since the lottery was concluded. Kakko certainly has made it a lot closer than it was a year ago, but I don't think any GM actually has the balls to not pick Hughes 1, who I think also has a slightly higher ceiling (but also a lower floor).

I don't see how a physically limited kid could have a higher ceiling compared to player like Kakko (who's basically a full package and then some), but I agree that any GM picking first would be extremely wary in terms of not taking Hughes first. What a few years' non-stop hype in the NA'n hockey world can do is just crazy. I think the headlines would remain as "Kakko has closed in the cap" for forever, if time wasn't a limited concept. Meaning, the narrative would remain the same even if he lead the WHC team to gold medal while winning the BPA award along the way.

Anyway that pass today... woah. He made absolutely the right pick by not partaking the U18s and focusing in the bigger event instead. Here's to hoping they'll find him some good NHL caliper line mates for the Championships.