Rutherford to Rossi: "You're a ****ing jerk. ... Your opinion is ****."

Jacob

as seen on TV
Feb 27, 2002
49,485
25,085
Guerin might make a decent President of Hockey Ops. Someone that says "here's how I want my team to look, and here's the way I want them to play." A big picture guy. But there's a lot of nuances to being a GM that he couldn't possibly know or understand from his current or past roles. It would be a disaster.
 

Gooch

Registered User
May 28, 2008
14,472
6
Coeur d'Alene Idaho
I don't ever recall using our high draft picks for long term pieces, so I'm not seeing how it is the same argument that was made every year.

The argument always made was how the player makes us better now and that the 1st rounder would take years to be useful if he ever became useful. Every year it's new excuses as to why we need to trade our draft picks and it's been recently that it's really showed just how detrimental of a mindset that it could be.
 

Penguinator

Kesselator
Sep 17, 2014
3,999
2
Space
Rossi is really stupid in the sense that he isn't nearly as opportunistic as he think he is. All he has to do to become rich beyond his wildest dreams is to print his face on toilet paper.
 

Shady Machine

Registered User
Aug 6, 2010
36,704
8,141
The argument always made was how the player makes us better now and that the 1st rounder would take years to be useful if he ever became useful. Every year it's new excuses as to why we need to trade our draft picks and it's been recently that it's really showed just how detrimental of a mindset that it could be.

Except that in this case, the 1st rounder was traded for a long term asset. So it's not the same thing at all.
 

Waffle Fries

Registered User
Mar 7, 2013
18,086
2
The argument always made was how the player makes us better now and that the 1st rounder would take years to be useful if he ever became useful. Every year it's new excuses as to why we need to trade our draft picks and it's been recently that it's really showed just how detrimental of a mindset that it could be.

But we didn't acquire a guy who only helps us now, it's a player that will continue helping in the future. It's a different situation entirely.
 

tom_servo

Registered User
Sep 27, 2002
17,154
6,011
Pittsburgh
I should ignore everyone who considers the Perron trade a flop (...but I won't). The dude's proven, and younger than the entire core (this is the critical part) by which we weigh such trades. He's cold, but he has too good of a track record for it to last long.

Can you explain how [to get Hornqvist without giving up Neal]?

Can you imagine our team giving Hornqvist away? That's what some people wanted Nashville to do for us. Like, why would they do that? This trade looks even better as a 1-for-1 than before. Only Spaling's salary, as inoffensive as he is as a player, has proven to be a downside.
 

Jag68Sid87

Sullivan gots to go!
Oct 1, 2003
35,590
1,269
Montreal, QC
Johnston's a different story to me. Is he the right coach? I don't know. But he's not incompetent. He's not incompetent. The best evidence anyone can point to of Johnston's incompetence is the prominence of Kunitz in-season. The problem is, when it comes time to suggest an alternative all anyone comes up with is dead silence or Bennett, which are the same thing.

For my money, his work at the deadline and cap management tells me JR is incompetent. There's nothing like that to grab onto with Johnston.

That's a fair point, bb. I'll buy it. Would you accept, then, "doesn't command enough respect to be NHL head coach?", or "doesn't have enough presence?"


Iggy, in his prime, is a much better use of a 1st rounder than Perron. But we didn't trade for that. We traded for a 30-something UFA. Perron is the same age as our core and signed for another season. Trading for Perron is a much wiser use of that asset.

I'm not sure what gives you the impression that this organization would have drafted and developed a winger that would be able to have a bigger impact on the team than Perron in the next 3 years. We took that first round pick and put it in a time machine.

OK, I don't want to rehash the whole Iggy thing again because it was painful then and it still stings now, but you do realize that Iginla outscored Perron by 18 points THIS season right? He scored 12 more goals. Iginla had 61 points LAST season in Boston, a notoriously defensive outfit. He also scored 30 goals. Perron had 57 points, 28 goals last season. Career year for him. Down year in a defensive system for Iggy.

The conclusion here is the problem is Pittsburgh. Iginla comes here, we move him to left wing and he bombs and leaves town with his tail between his legs. Perron comes here and suddenly nobody can score on the team, Perron included.

But there is a difference in the caliber of player here. Perron has never outscored Iginla. MAYBE when Iggy turns 40, but then Perron will be 30 and he too will start to decline. Iggy's a freak. He's one of the best players of his generation, and we threw him to the curb like he was Josef Beranek.

Furthermore, we need to stop saying things like, "I'm not sure what gives you the impression that this organization would have drafted and developed a winger that would be able to have a bigger impact on the team than Perron in the next 3 years."

THAT is the problem, people. You don't just keep trading picks away because, well, 'we can't develop wingers properly anyway.' That is how teams go from champions to also-rans. It's how teams become mediocre and stay there for a LONG time.

We are headed down that road if we continue to lack draft picks, have no clue how to use them at the table, fail to develop the players we do pick and are constantly forced into surrendering more picks for the Daniel Winnik's of the world.

Is Bill Guerin going to suddenly turn this franchise around, and start doing smart things? I highly doubt it. He's going to keep going down the same road, making bold moves here and there and playing the cards as if we are close to another Cup. And as he does that, we'll keep moving further and further away.

So basically we're in the deep stuff here.
 

billybudd

Registered User
Feb 1, 2012
22,049
2,249
That's a fair point, bb. I'll buy it. Would you accept, then, "doesn't command enough respect to be NHL head coach?", or "doesn't have enough presence?"

That is entirely possible. I really don't have any way of knowing if that's the case, but I can't discount it.

But he's no Babcock when it comes to subtle working of the refs without enticing them into a grudge, that's for sure.
 

Jag68Sid87

Sullivan gots to go!
Oct 1, 2003
35,590
1,269
Montreal, QC
Guerin might make a decent President of Hockey Ops. Someone that says "here's how I want my team to look, and here's the way I want them to play." A big picture guy. But there's a lot of nuances to being a GM that he couldn't possibly know or understand from his current or past roles. It would be a disaster.

I understand your point about Guerin being Pres of Hockey Ops, because he does seem to have presence, BUT I wouldn't trust Guerin to know where to find the right GM to work below him.
 

Waffle Fries

Registered User
Mar 7, 2013
18,086
2
OK, I don't want to rehash the whole Iggy thing again because it was painful then and it still stings now, but you do realize that Iginla outscored Perron by 18 points THIS season right? He scored 12 more goals. Iginla had 61 points LAST season in Boston, a notoriously defensive outfit. He also scored 30 goals. Perron had 57 points, 28 goals last season. Career year for him. Down year in a defensive system for Iggy.

The conclusion here is the problem is Pittsburgh. Iginla comes here, we move him to left wing and he bombs and leaves town with his tail between his legs. Perron comes here and suddenly nobody can score on the team, Perron included.

But there is a difference in the caliber of player here. Perron has never outscored Iginla. MAYBE when Iggy turns 40, but then Perron will be 30 and he too will start to decline. Iggy's a freak. He's one of the best players of his generation, and we threw him to the curb like he was Josef Beranek.

Perron also played in Edmonton.

That's not really the point. Perron is a long-term asset verses a pure rental.

Furthermore, we need to stop saying things like, "I'm not sure what gives you the impression that this organization would have drafted and developed a winger that would be able to have a bigger impact on the team than Perron in the next 3 years."

THAT is the problem, people. You don't just keep trading picks away because, well, 'we can't develop wingers properly anyway.' That is how teams go from champions to also-rans. It's how teams become mediocre and stay there for a LONG time.

We are headed down that road if we continue to lack draft picks, have no clue how to use them at the table, fail to develop the players we do pick and are constantly forced into surrendering more picks for the Daniel Winnik's of the world.

Is Bill Guerin going to suddenly turn this franchise around, and start doing smart things? I highly doubt it. He's going to keep going down the same road, making bold moves here and there and playing the cards as if we are close to another Cup. And as he does that, we'll keep moving further and further away.

So basically we're in the deep stuff here.

Your argument works for things like the Winnik trade or the Murray trade or any other trade of a veteran rental.

Where it falls flat is that Perron is a long-term asset of a position in need. We don't need to worry about waiting three years or watching the team fail to develop him. Trading for Perron isn't throwing that pick away, it was speeding up a process that the team is pretty bad at.
 

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Registered User
Sep 5, 2008
28,726
2,346
Someone needs to punch Rossi in the face. Maybe it'll have a cartoon-like effect and shake up his walnut brain, and break him out of this smug, whiny, angsty, tantrum prone teenage girl thing he's been on for so many years.
 

Le Magnifique 66

Let's Go Pens
Jun 9, 2006
23,635
3,281
Montreal
So Chiarelli is in Edmonton right now, if JR is fired, who do you guys want as GM?

I just hope it's not Botteril or Guerin

I still like McGuire or Trevor Timmins from the Habs, he is the head scout and said he would be interested one day in a GM position.
 

Penguinsyay

Registered User
Jul 20, 2007
402
32
Craig Adams
Age: 37
Games: 71
Goals: 1
Assists: 6
Points: 7
Shooting %: 1.96
Salary: 700k

Mark Arcobello
Age: 26
Games: 77
Goals: 17
Assists: 14
Points: 31
Shooting %: 13.18
Salary: 600k

Which would you rather put on waivers?
 

Captain Hook

Registered User
Jul 12, 2007
15,458
390
So Chiarelli is in Edmonton right now, if JR is fired, who do you guys want as GM?

I just hope it's not Botteril or Guerin

I still like McGuire or Trevor Timmins from the Habs, he is the head scout and said he would be interested one day in a GM position.

Not a Chiarelli fan anyway. He had mostly poor drafts and committed an unforgivable sin in trading away Seguin. Not even sure why Edmonton would want him unless they want to hire some nut that will come up with the great idea to trade McDavid if the team is still struggling in a few years.

I wasn't as against McGuire last summer as some. He intrigues me because of how right he usually is when it comes to prospects. He is a risky hire though.

I do expect the next GM to be one of JR's assistants. I'm going to hate that but I'm already bracing myself for it.
 

brewski420

Registered User
Sep 29, 2009
5,777
895
Ohio
That's a fair point, bb. I'll buy it. Would you accept, then, "doesn't command enough respect to be NHL head coach?", or "doesn't have enough presence?"




OK, I don't want to rehash the whole Iggy thing again because it was painful then and it still stings now, but you do realize that Iginla outscored Perron by 18 points THIS season right? He scored 12 more goals. Iginla had 61 points LAST season in Boston, a notoriously defensive outfit. He also scored 30 goals. Perron had 57 points, 28 goals last season. Career year for him. Down year in a defensive system for Iggy.

The conclusion here is the problem is Pittsburgh. Iginla comes here, we move him to left wing and he bombs and leaves town with his tail between his legs. Perron comes here and suddenly nobody can score on the team, Perron included.

But there is a difference in the caliber of player here. Perron has never outscored Iginla. MAYBE when Iggy turns 40, but then Perron will be 30 and he too will start to decline. Iggy's a freak. He's one of the best players of his generation, and we threw him to the curb like he was Josef Beranek.

Furthermore, we need to stop saying things like, "I'm not sure what gives you the impression that this organization would have drafted and developed a winger that would be able to have a bigger impact on the team than Perron in the next 3 years."

THAT is the problem, people. You don't just keep trading picks away because, well, 'we can't develop wingers properly anyway.' That is how teams go from champions to also-rans. It's how teams become mediocre and stay there for a LONG time.

We are headed down that road if we continue to lack draft picks, have no clue how to use them at the table, fail to develop the players we do pick and are constantly forced into surrendering more picks for the Daniel Winnik's of the world.

Is Bill Guerin going to suddenly turn this franchise around, and start doing smart things? I highly doubt it. He's going to keep going down the same road, making bold moves here and there and playing the cards as if we are close to another Cup. And as he does that, we'll keep moving further and further away.

So basically we're in the deep stuff here.

This post is painful to read in that it is so true!!
 

Shady Machine

Registered User
Aug 6, 2010
36,704
8,141
Not a Chiarelli fan anyway. He had mostly poor drafts and committed an unforgivable sin in trading away Seguin. Not even sure why Edmonton would want him unless they want to hire some nut that will come up with the great idea to trade McDavid if the team is still struggling in a few years.

I wasn't as against McGuire last summer as some. He intrigues me because of how right he usually is when it comes to prospects. He is a risky hire though.

I do expect the next GM to be one of JR's assistants. I'm going to hate that but I'm already bracing myself for it.

I'm sure McGuire would be fine, but I can't stand his TV personality sometimes. He loves "Robbie" Scuderi on TV. Maybe he is just making **** up, but based on what he says in the games, I don't trust him to make the right moves to correct the issues on this team.
 

Dupree13

Registered User
Aug 2, 2005
4,158
0
Pittsburgh
Please just don't hire another arrogant meathead from the old boy circuit.

Get somebody younger who actually subscribes to the asset management school of thought.
 

cassius

Registered User
Jul 23, 2004
13,560
706
Please just don't hire another arrogant meathead from the old boy circuit.

Get somebody younger who actually subscribes to the asset management school of thought.

That's not how Mario operates - it's all about cronyism and helping his golfing buddies get jobs. He's becoming a Jerry Jones type of owner.

I love 66 as a person and a player, but as an owner.. I have my doubts that he is running this team as effectively as possible.
 

Coastal Kev

There will be "I told you so's" Bet on it
Feb 16, 2013
16,752
5,016
The Low Country, SC
That's a fair point, bb. I'll buy it. Would you accept, then, "doesn't command enough respect to be NHL head coach?", or "doesn't have enough presence?"




OK, I don't want to rehash the whole Iggy thing again because it was painful then and it still stings now, but you do realize that Iginla outscored Perron by 18 points THIS season right? He scored 12 more goals. Iginla had 61 points LAST season in Boston, a notoriously defensive outfit. He also scored 30 goals. Perron had 57 points, 28 goals last season. Career year for him. Down year in a defensive system for Iggy.

The conclusion here is the problem is Pittsburgh. Iginla comes here, we move him to left wing and he bombs and leaves town with his tail between his legs. Perron comes here and suddenly nobody can score on the team, Perron included.

But there is a difference in the caliber of player here. Perron has never outscored Iginla. MAYBE when Iggy turns 40, but then Perron will be 30 and he too will start to decline. Iggy's a freak. He's one of the best players of his generation, and we threw him to the curb like he was Josef Beranek.

Furthermore, we need to stop saying things like, "I'm not sure what gives you the impression that this organization would have drafted and developed a winger that would be able to have a bigger impact on the team than Perron in the next 3 years."

THAT is the problem, people. You don't just keep trading picks away because, well, 'we can't develop wingers properly anyway.' That is how teams go from champions to also-rans. It's how teams become mediocre and stay there for a LONG time.

We are headed down that road if we continue to lack draft picks, have no clue how to use them at the table, fail to develop the players we do pick and are constantly forced into surrendering more picks for the Daniel Winnik's of the world.

Is Bill Guerin going to suddenly turn this franchise around, and start doing smart things? I highly doubt it. He's going to keep going down the same road, making bold moves here and there and playing the cards as if we are close to another Cup. And as he does that, we'll keep moving further and further away.

So basically we're in the deep stuff here.

Very good post. Amazing that you won't ever get this type of analysis from local media experts.
 

Dupree13

Registered User
Aug 2, 2005
4,158
0
Pittsburgh
That's not how Mario operates - it's all about cronyism and helping his golfing buddies get jobs. He's becoming a Jerry Jones type of owner.

I love 66 as a person and a player, but as an owner.. I have my doubts that he is running this team as effectively as possible.

You're putting it pretty kindly.

I think there is a possibility that he would go against his normal style for the next round of shake-ups. Hope so anyway.
 

Jag68Sid87

Sullivan gots to go!
Oct 1, 2003
35,590
1,269
Montreal, QC
So Chiarelli is in Edmonton right now, if JR is fired, who do you guys want as GM?

I just hope it's not Botteril or Guerin

I still like McGuire or Trevor Timmins from the Habs, he is the head scout and said he would be interested one day in a GM position.

For me, it's all about Trevor Timmins. Look at where Montreal is right now. The biggest reason might be Carey Price, but I would argue that Timmins is probably the second-biggest reason for their success...ahead of Bergevin, ahead of Therrien, ahead of Subban.

Timmins has repeatedly come up with gem after gem. He goes after skill in the late rounds. Guys like Martin Reway, Artturi Lehkonen, Charles Hudon. Those are first and second round talents, taken in the 4th, 2nd and 5th rounds. He also gets grit and toughness, too...guys like McCarron, Thrower et al. He doesn't seem to have a bias towards any particular part of the world, or league either.

He provides the depth, Bergevin and Therrien reap the benefits. I want to steal that man away from that organization SO BADLY.
 

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