Rumor: Rumors & Proposals Thread | You're My Boy Bouch!

[Tobias Kahun]

Eichel the guy who has like a thousand attempted shots blocked from the high slot area, a goal in tight with multiple other shooting attempts from around the slot area is the same as McLeod's chart???

Buddy...at this point you're trying to do battle rather than try to gain some knowledge. McLeod's chart is a travesty. How anyone can claim he is a suitable 3C at the NHL when he didn't register a single shot on net in the entire series from anywhere but the corner should say enough. Why don't we look at the Vegas 3C's chart? I'm reading that aloud in Bateman's voice. Let's take a look at Karlsson's chart.

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Not even close to comparable.

So attempted shots from the slot help Eichels chart, but you ignore them on McLeods?

 

[duul]

Lol you just can never accept an L can you?

Every team in the NHL has most of their shots being taken from in and around the hash marks. Outside shots are less common.

Why do you all insist on trying to do battle instead of spending a minute googling 'nhl shot locations' and being given a litany of information readily available? The first spike in the chart being the point and the second being ~10 feet off the goal line.

Again, take a few seconds next time. Or at least apologize for being objectively wrong.

 

[TopShelfGloveSide]

View attachment 740735
Every team in the NHL has most of their shots being taken from in and around the hash marks. Outside shots are less common.

Why do you all insist on trying to do battle instead of spending a minute googling 'nhl shot locations' and being given a litany of information readily available? The first spike in the chart being the point and the second being ~10 feet off the goal line.

Again, take a few seconds next time. Or at least apologize for being objectively wrong.

Haha like I said you can’t accept an L.

 

[duul]

So attempted shots from the slot help Eichels chart, but you ignore them on McLeods?

Who's shifting goal posts now? There's an obvious difference between Eichel having a laser shot blocked from a prime shooting location, which is why he's one of the top goal scorers in the league, versus McLeod missing the net entirely over and over again.

Haha like I said you can’t accept an L.

What L? I made a claim, multiple people claimed I was wrong, I showed verified proof I am right. Now what? What L is there to take? Sneak back off for another foolish and misguided potshot later on lad.

 

[GOilers88]

And it's been pointed out equally as much that no team has ever won anything with the level of defensive play and goaltending in unison that the Oilers have showed in the playoffs the last two years.

It is simply too easy for a team that is better than an LA or Calgary to look at that, game plan to attack it, and do so very successfully when you have a MacKinnon or Eichel, you don't need a McDavid when you are given so many freebies in a 7 game series.

This front office has to commit at the *very least* to making either the goaltending or defence very good (not just average or below average). And if that is asking too much, then for the people in charge here, what are they being paid to do then really? Because Connor and Leon are busting their asses, our front office owes it to them to at least be 50% of that. They are not holding up their end of the bargain.

No one can win with the blue line and goaltending the Oilers have displayed in the last two years. Gretzky would not, Lemieux wouldn't, Crosby wouldn't, asking McDavid to do it asking for a miracle. We have to give them something reasonable to work with on the back end, it doesn't have to be the perfect blueline + goalie but asking for one of the two to not be a gong show in the playoffs shouldn't require 4, 5, 6 years to build. "Hoping things go right" is not a strategy.

There is literally not a single viable option you can come up with in net that could make you say "yah man, this guy will carry the team to a cup", so I don't know why you keep implying that there is.

 

[duul]

There is literally not a single viable option you can come up with in net that could make you say "yah man, this guy will carry the team to a cup", so I don't know why you keep implying that there is.

I think it is pretty obvious that goaltending should be addressed AFTER solidifying a solid defensive group, as a solid defensive group can make any goaltender look good. We've had the discussion about Vegas playing a system that helps their goaltenders out. Let's start there and see what we have in the roster before looking.

Hellebucyk, despite being in my eyes the most talented goaltender in the NHL hasn't won shit with Winnipeg because their D is almost as bad as ours. We wouldn't win with Hellebucyk either. Defence first.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

Who's shifting goal posts now? There's an obvious difference between Eichel having a laser shot blocked from a prime shooting location, which is why he's one of the top goal scorers in the league, versus McLeod missing the net entirely over and over again.


What L? I made a claim, multiple people claimed I was wrong, I showed verified proof I am right. Now what? What L is there to take? Sneak back off for another foolish and misguided potshot later on lad.

Considering the "verified proof" doesnt help you like you think it does.

When you've repeatedly been proven wrong in this thread.

 

[GOilers88]

I think it is pretty obvious that goaltending should be addressed AFTER solidifying a solid defensive group, as a solid defensive group can make any goaltender look good. We've had the discussion about Vegas playing a system that helps their goaltenders out. Let's start there and see what we have in the roster before looking.

Hellebucyk, despite being in my eyes the most talented goaltender in the NHL hasn't won shit with Winnipeg because their D is almost as bad as ours. We wouldn't win with Hellebucyk either. Defence first.

I'm 100% in agreement that adding another solid defenseman is the biggest move they could make. I also believe we'll see it again at or near the deadline and have a solid idea if any of the rooks are worth holding or not.

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

Who's shifting goal posts now? There's an obvious difference between Eichel having a laser shot blocked from a prime shooting location, which is why he's one of the top goal scorers in the league, versus McLeod missing the net entirely over and over again.


What L? I made a claim, multiple people claimed I was wrong, I showed verified proof I am right. Now what? What L is there to take? Sneak back off for another foolish and misguided potshot later on lad.

You should change your name to duuL for all the god awful takes and Ls you take on the daily.

 

[McAsuno]

So glad I put posters like Duul and Broberg Speed on ignore. The thread's more refreshing now.

 

[Soundwave]

There is literally not a single viable option you can come up with in net that could make you say "yah man, this guy will carry the team to a cup", so I don't know why you keep implying that there is.

I don't buy that. Lowe was able to find Roloson. Even Chia was able to find Talbot who before his game fell apart (thanks Schwartz) posted strong playoff save percentage here and did so in Calgary too.

No one is saying "carry us to a Cup" either, we need some dimension as a team so we can win some playoff games without it having to be all Leon or Connor. In 2017, Talbot definitely won us games and held us in that San Jose series that McDavid started slow in and had us in the driver's seat in the Ducks series until our inexperience killed us.

To say it can't be done is to say that Holland less capable than Lowe and Chiarelli.

There are guys that are available or could become available. Saros, Hart, Demko, Hellebuyck, Gibson, maybe even an Ullmark are guys that are available now or could become available as the season goes along.

To say that we just have to accept .883 goaltending in the playoffs is ridiculous.

 

[McDoused]

Where did you hear this? I guess that's one way to go around NTC's although the kind of players that we could afford typically don't have those anyway!

On some dumb youtube video. Not sure where they heard it.

Which player do you pick?

Player A (AHL)
207GP 34 G 58A 92P
0.44 P/GP
0.16 G/GP

Player B (AHL)
136GP 43G 38A 81P
0.6 P/GP
0.32 G/GP

If no one is going to bite, player A is Kostin and player B is Lavoie.

Lavoie to this point has been the better goal scorer and point producer. I think your average fan is sleeping on him. For a guy with his size and scoring ability, I'm surprised with just how fast he is and how well he skates with the puck. Hes not just a shooter and has chemistry with McLeod already.

 

[duul]

On some dumb youtube video. Not sure where they heard it.



If no one is going to bite, player A is Kostin and player B is Lavoie.

Lavoie to this point has been the better goal scorer and point producer. I think your average fan is sleeping on him. For a guy with his size and scoring ability, I'm surprised with just how fast he is and how well he skates with the puck. Hes not just a shooter and has chemistry with McLeod already.

Nobody bit because you don't have to choose one. Lavoie is a solid prospect but to say he is a 'better goal scorer' when he hasn't touched NHL ice is absurd.

I'm high on Lavoie and think he might make the team this year, but you don't need to set it as a one or the other type of scenario here. If Lavoie pans out him AND Kostin on our team would have been great.

 

[Soundwave]

Ceci is obviously in the Barrie position of last year. Reasonable cap hit. No NTC. Replace him and the rest falls into place

There are reasons not to upgrade Ceci yet. First off, there are reports that Ceci was injured so it makes sense that we'd want to re-evaluate him.

It helps that cap space is the second reason, as teams are generally most strapped at the start before major injuries happen. Ceci is low cost. Also it is far more expensive to get teams to retain now, because at the deadline there are only a few paychecks left.

And thirdly the major problem relates to the deadline, and that's that there aren't any options to upgrade Ceci now. There are too few sellers (*edited). Take someone like Anaheim for example. Everyone says they will suck but will the Ducks assume that and sell now? No way. And yes there are some high profile rumored names right now like Pesce and that is a dream add but I don't think those players are actually available unless they are getting an equivalent player back. Or they want him around as a trade chip for a Pettersson or Nylander

Ever heard of the saying "you get what you pay for?" ... Ceci is cheap, but he also is giant liability in a playoff round playing big minutes against any top team.

"Healthy Cody Ceci" versus the Avalanche in the 2022 playoffs:

-5 in 4 games

Cody Ceci this year versus Vegas

-7 (lol) in 6 games

This guy cannot play top minutes in a high intensity take no prisoners playoff brand of hockey when he has to face up against legit elite NHL talent like a MacKinnon or Rantanen or Eichel or Stone. Dude just gets destroyed.

Our right side D is a complete liability that teams like Vegas and the Avs will 100% zero in on because they're not stupid and are going to study us for any weak point we have because McDavid/Draisaitl are at times impossible to stop so they will look to get it back and then some by taking players like Ceci to the cleaners.

 

[duul]

Ever heard of the saying "you get what you pay for?" ... Ceci is cheap, but he also is giant liability in a playoff round playing big minutes against any top team.

"Healthy Cody Ceci" versus the Avalanche in the 2022 playoffs:

-5 in 4 games

Cody Ceci this year versus Vegas

-7 (lol) in 6 games

This guy cannot play top minutes in a high intensity take no prisoners playoff brand of hockey when he has to face up against legit elite NHL talent like a MacKinnon or Rantanen or Eichel or Stone. Dude just gets destroyed.

Our right side D is a complete liability that teams like Vegas and the Avs will 100% zero in on because they're not stupid and are going to study us for any weak point we have because McDavid/Draisaitl are at times impossible to stop so they will look to get it back and then some by taking players like Ceci to the cleaners.

It's almost like taking a guy who was bottom pairing on Pittsburgh and putting him on the top pairing here was a bad idea. LMAO.

 

[Anarchism]

On some dumb youtube video. Not sure where they heard it.



If no one is going to bite, player A is Kostin and player B is Lavoie.

Lavoie to this point has been the better goal scorer and point producer. I think your average fan is sleeping on him. For a guy with his size and scoring ability, I'm surprised with just how fast he is and how well he skates with the puck. Hes not just a shooter and has chemistry with McLeod already.

If your point is you believe Lavoie is ready u may find yourself disappointed. His play away from the puck and his two way play has taken a step for sure. He is no longer 'we have defenseman for that' in his thinking. But there is still quite a bit of room for improvement. Don't think he has enough of a base yet for the NHL. More work required. Maybe we see him closer to the deadline if he really commits.

 

[McDoused]

If your point is you believe Lavoie is ready u may find yourself disappointed. His play away from the puck and his two way play has taken a step for sure. He is no longer 'we have defenseman for that' in his thinking. But there is still quite a bit of room for improvement. Don't think he has enough of a base yet for the NHL. More work required. Maybe we see him closer to the deadline if he really commits.

I should just take your word?

Ignored.

 

[Fourier]

Eichel the guy who has like a thousand attempted shots blocked from the high slot area, a goal in tight with multiple other shooting attempts from around the slot area is the same as McLeod's chart???

Buddy...at this point you're trying to do battle rather than try to gain some knowledge. McLeod's chart is a travesty. How anyone can claim he is a suitable 3C at the NHL when he didn't register a single shot on net in the entire series from anywhere but the corner should say enough. Why don't we look at the Vegas 3C's chart? I'm reading that aloud in Bateman's voice. Let's take a look at Karlsson's chart.

View attachment 740734


Not even close to comparable.

I think it would be hard for anyone to argue that McLeod is anywhere close to the level of William Karlsson offensively. Karlsson after all has been Vegas' #1C in the past. Really he is Vegas' RNH. But the comparison is not really the best evidence to suggest that McLeod's play was a travesty.

Again, this is about using data in its proper context. If you want to debate where players were generating chances from they are great tools. In fact the charts do help counter your claim that McLeod played a primarily perimeter game in the series even if the shots did not register on net. However, there is much more to the role of a third line center that these charts don't illustrate. Namely, the defensive side and the players role as a playmaker in helping his line mates generate chances. The former is hard to isolate, and there is not a lot of direct data concerning the latter aside from simple assist total. In that regard McLeod did have 2 assists 5 vs 5 against Vegas. In a 6 game series that is reasonable though not remarkable production from a third liner. But the real reason McLeod has earned praise vs the Knights is the possession stats the line of McLeod, Foegele and Ryan had. Statistically that line did an excellent job in controlling the play and in generating scoring chances even against the Knights top lines.

McLeod is not a finished product. His ability to finish is still a ??? But he actually had a good series vs Vegas in the role he was asked to play.

 

[Anarchism]

I should just take your word?

Ignored.

The end of october will likely see ....

And definitely watch some games on the player....they have them archived.
Lets bet on this.
IF Lavoie is still up an playing by November 9 I will exit this board until the new year.
If Lavoie is either eating popcorn or been sent down by November 9 you will exit this board until the new year.

???

 

[belair]

On some dumb youtube video. Not sure where they heard it.

If no one is going to bite, player A is Kostin and player B is Lavoie.

Lavoie to this point has been the better goal scorer and point producer. I think your average fan is sleeping on him. For a guy with his size and scoring ability, I'm surprised with just how fast he is and how well he skates with the puck. Hes not just a shooter and has chemistry with McLeod already.

Kostin at $2m would've become the villain in Edmonton rather quickly knowing this fan base. Yamamoto's resume showed a better all-around player and at $3.1m he was a complete write-off.

These types of players are useful when the cost is low. But if they can't grab an impactful role, that second contract essentially negates the value.

These are the types of roles you fill in the late stages of free agency or through your development system. 20-30 points over a full season and not being a complete defensive liability is the current bar.

 

[jlockhart89]

So glad I put posters like Duul and Broberg Speed on ignore. The thread's more refreshing now.

I honestly don’t get how they aren’t booted off of posting considering 98% of the posters here can’t stand their toxic negativity and at least half of us probably already have them on ignore. No one would miss them.

 

[LTIR]

Kostin at $2m would've become the villain in Edmonton rather quickly knowing this fan base. Yamamoto's resume showed a better all-around player and at $3.1m he was a complete write-off.

These types of players are useful when the cost is low. But if they can't grab an impactful role, that second contract essentially negates the value.

These are the types of roles you fill in the late stages of free agency or through your development system. 20-30 points over a full season and not being a complete defensive liability is the current bar.

Doubt it, this fan base loves a player like Kostin and would rather have him than lower energy players like McLeod, Janmark etc.

Kostin's physicality and energy will be missed for sure.

 

[belair]

Doubt it, this fan base loves a player like Kostin and would rather have him than lower energy players like McLeod, Janmark etc.

Kostin's physicality and energy will be missed for sure.

They miss Kassian's physicality and energy, too. They paid a lot to get out of his contract and you heard no complaints about it.

Kassian at his best was better than Kostin likely ever will be.

 

[McDoused]

Doubt it, this fan base loves a player like Kostin and would rather have him than lower energy players like McLeod, Janmark etc.

Kostin's physicality and energy will be missed for sure.

Not sure I would categorize McLeod or Janmark as low energy players. They are arguably two of the fastest players we have and are able to create on their own.

I guess energy just means hitting?

 

[duul]

I think it would be hard for anyone to argue that McLeod is anywhere close to the level of William Karlsson offensively. Karlsson after all has been Vegas' #1C in the past. Really he is Vegas' RNH. But the comparison is not really the best evidence to suggest that McLeod's play was a travesty.

Again, this is about using data in its proper context. If you want to debate where players were generating chances from they are great tools. In fact the charts do help counter your claim that McLeod played a primarily perimeter game in the series even if the shots did not register on net. However, there is much more to the role of a third line center that these charts don't illustrate. Namely, the defensive side and the players role as a playmaker in helping his line mates generate chances. The former is hard to isolate, and there is not a lot of direct data concerning the latter aside from simple assist total. In that regard McLeod did have 2 assists 5 vs 5 against Vegas. In a 6 game series that is reasonable though not remarkable production from a third liner. But the real reason McLeod has earned praise vs the Knights is the possession stats the line of McLeod, Foegele and Ryan had. Statistically that line did an excellent job in controlling the play and in generating scoring chances even against the Knights top lines.

McLeod is not a finished product. His ability to finish is still a ??? But he actually had a good series vs Vegas in the role he was asked to play.

If Karlsson at 3C vs McLeod at 3C is too obvious, should we look at some other 3C's who played Vegas in these playoffs to see how they compare to McLeod using these fancy charts?

Let's look at McLeod, Lundell, Johnston, and Lowry.

Right now we're trying to have a discussion as to why a guy who scored 0 goals and had 0 shots on net in the entire Vegas series from anywhere that could potentially score us a goal is quite valuable and worth keeping around. Let's keep that in mind.

Every other team's 3C performed significantly better against Vegas, yet we're supposed to be set here with McLeod 'coming into his own' eventually. What a sick joke.