Blue Jays Discussion: Roy Halladay officially inducted in the 2019 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

[TheMadHatTrick]

I know Vlad will eventually move to first but was kind of hoping for Dom Smith. Very underrated guy.

 

[kovacro]

I’d like to see more industry people chime in in this one. I have no idea about these guys in all honesty so I have to see how this deal shakes out in a few years.

Anyone know what the return on Sogard is?Last I read it was 2 PTBNL.

 

[Kurtz]

If Syndergaard goes for a similar package we should be ecstatic because he's a much much, much more valuable pitcher than Stroman is.

Sure, but you take my point, yes?

To be fair though, Cashman is basically a top tier trade negotiator in the league. Probably the closest comparable to Doug Wilson in the NHL. If Atkins is a beta-male negotiator, Cashman is definitely the alpha in the league.

Funny thing - the term Alpha originated with alpha-wolves, a term one scientist observing the wolves had coined for the most dominant wolf that leads the pack.

Years later, that same scientist realized that he made a mistake. The Alpha wolf was always just the father of the pack - not necessarily the strongest or most ferocious wolf.

I guess it'd be fair to call Cashman the daddy of the league right now, though.

 

[zeke]

Due to age? I see the AA numbers and that gives me some hope. Curious which is the biggest red flag in your opinion.

yeah 2yrs old for AA imo so I almost don't even look at those stats at all - and I'm not surprised that an older guy like that would get lit up on promotiion to AAA, despite that AA performance.

Another way to look at it:

Kay '18 (23, A/A+): 122.2ip, 23.2k%, 9.2b%, 4.26era, 3.60fip, 3.93xfip
Kay '19 (24, AA/AAA): 97.2ip, 23.9k%, 8.5b%, 3.13era, 3.85fip, 4.36xfip
All MILB (24, A-AAA): 220.1ip, 23.5k%, 8.9b%, 3.76era, 3.71fip, 4.12xfip

So I don't hold the bad AAA performance against him any more than I give him credit for the good AA performance. I see them as just small sample variations, really.

Overall, he's just a guy with no great pitches who's been old for every level and put up mediocre numbers across the board.

 

[hockeywiz542]

Marcus Stroman trade grades: Mets take leap of faith; Blue Jays make good in reported deal

Blue Jays: B

The few years of trade rumors surrounding Stroman culminated in him heading to New York, just not the team a lot of people thought Stroman would end up on.

In turn, the Blue Jays get Anthony Kay, a promising left-hander and top prospect in the Mets organization, and Simeon Woods-Richardson, another promising arm, albeit in Single-A. Kay could see the majors as soon as this season, if he works out the issues plaguing him at Triple-A Syracuse.

That said, while the pool of Jays position talent is strong, their pitching prospects are still levels away from making an impact. Of their top 10 prospects per MLB Pipeline, only one is at Triple-A: Sean Reid-Foley, and he's pitched to an ERA over 6.00 this season. All the rest are in Double-A or lower.

It's not so much as accelerating the timeline as it is getting another young, cost-controlled arm to head up the rotation for the foreseeable future. The Jays' window was very clearly not open with Stroman at the top, so why not ship him off for potential?

Kay and Woods-Richardson both have to develop, but it's hard not to like this deal for the Blue Jays. But, getting two prospects who didn't rank highly across the sport begs the question: could they have gotten more if they continued to shop Stroman? Play teams against one another? Get a better package?

We may never know.

Overall: B

The Jays are the early winner here, in the middle of a rebuild and get an arm that could be a top-of-the-rotation guy if he continues to develop. The same can be said of Woods-Richardson.

The Mets continue to make win-now moves, which makes sense after all. Their young core looks up to the task of winning in the coming years, even if it is something of a lateral move with a focus on the present rather than the future.

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

The MLB article(2nd last) is from July and ranks the Farm System as a B+, which like I said, ranks them at 4th in the AL. I purposely showed 4 different rankings, you disregard one, but 2 still ranked the Jays farm system higher than Fangraphs did. That was all I was trying to say, not that one was more reputable than the other. I simply don't know if I buy the Jays falling that far behind(12-15 spots) even with Vladdy's graduation . I'm not an expert by any means (alongside pretty much everyone here) but it doesn't change the fact that Fangraphs seems to have ranked them a little lower than others have. Whether you rank FanGraphs higher than others is entirely your prerogative , I'm just merely pointing things out is all.

Well generally if you're trying to frame an argument the reputability of your sources matter. It's more credible to cite the Times than Breitbart, for instance. It's more credible to cite BA or Fangraphs than Bleacher Report.

Providing a scattershot of rankings, doesn't make for a strong argument. The most respected sources for prospecters remains BA and Fangraphs, followed by some order of BP, Law, and then MLB.com, though 2080 Baseball is on the come up, and they see a ton of players.

I didn't disregard one, I disregarded several: Bleacher + all the ones calculated before Jr officially exhausted prospect eligibility in mid-June.

So that leaves you with milb.com whose quality as evaluators is slightly below MLB.com, and many of whose contributors are either stringers or unsalaried.

I personally think Fangraphs underrates us, and we're more in that 9-14 range with Vlad's graduation, but that's not the point. The point is, farm system's experience peaks and valleys during different competitive windows, which is what I was trying to show after Vlad had graduated, and it's impact on our rankings. Not to mention a guy who AA acquired, yet significantlt impacted the rankings we are crediting Shatkins for.

So to try to blast AA for spending prospect capital during our competitive years in order to hype up Shatkins during rebuilding years is like comparing apples to oranges. It's more intellectually honest to compare the state of the system after AA took over from JP to our current situation, since both were during rebuild/retool years.

 

[Mach85]

Like most, I love the inclusion of SWR. He might rocket up the charts. Kay would be a nice third piece - seems to have limited upside but some potential for being a back-end guy. It's often preached that the first year back from TJ is a tough one, so I'm willing to wait until next year to see if he can handle AAA better. However, I'm disappointed there's no substantial additional piece. "The market has changed and teams are holding onto their prospects" is all well and good and may be true, but this is the Mets we're talking about here. The same team that got destroyed at the time and in hindsight for overpaying for Edwin Diaz and is now seemingly adding and selling at the same time. Disappointed we couldn't take advantage of BVW and get an above-market deal.

 

[hoc123]

 

[KuleminFan41]

 

[dredeye]

I’d like to see more industry people chime in in this one. I have no idea about these guys in all honesty so I have to see how this deal shakes out in a few years.

Anyone know what the return on Sogard is?Last I read it was 2 PTBNL.

It could be a while before we know who the pieces are. It's surprising it's 2 players to be names later. Maybe they just have a group of lower end prospects they can choose from and the rays are giving them extra time to scout from the list or something like that.

 

[hoc123]

Well generally if you're trying to frame an argument the reputability of your sources matter. It's more credible to cite the Times than Breitbart, for instance. It's more credible to cite BA or Fangraphs than Bleacher Report.

Providing a scattershot of rankings, doesn't make for a strong argument. The most respected sources for prospecters remains BA and Fangraphs, followed by some order of BP, Law, and then MLB.com, though 2080 Baseball is on the come up, and they see a ton of players.

I didn't disregard one, I disregarded several: Bleacher + all the ones calculated before Jr officially exhausted prospect eligibility in mid-June.

So that leaves you with milb.com whose quality as evaluators is slightly below MLB.com, and many of whose contributors are either stringers or unsalaried.

I personally think Fangraphs underrates us, and we're more in that 9-14 range with Vlad's graduation, but that's not the point. The point is, farm system's experience peaks and valleys during different competitive windows, which is what I was trying to show after Vlad had graduated, and it's impact on our rankings. Not to mention a guy who AA acquired, yet impacted the rankings we are crediting Shatkins for.

So to try to blast AA for spending prospect capital during our competitive years in order to hype up Shatkins during rebuilding years is like comparing apples to oranges. It's more intellectually honest to compare the state of the system after AA took over from JP to our current situation, since both were during rebuild/retool years.

Not that I disagree with anything your saying here, but BA just a couple days ago put the Jays farm system at 9th.

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

To be fair though, Cashman is basically a top tier trade negotiator in the league. Probably the closest comparable to Doug Wilson in the NHL. If Atkins is a beta-male negotiator, Cashman is definitely the alpha in the league.

Atkins is basically a mustache short of Rosie O'Donnell.

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

Not that I disagree with anything your saying here, but BA just a couple days ago put the Jays farm system at 9th.

Sweet. That's more or less where I have them.

 

[hockeywiz542]

Rays have deal in place to get Eric Sogard from Blue Jays

TORONTO - The Rays have a deal in place to get infielder/outfielder Eric Sogard in trade from the Blue Jays, whom they are playing right now.

Nothing is expected to be made official until after the game, as medical reviews are believed to be ongoing.

The return from the Rays is not known but it will be a minor-league player, or players, possibly not announced today. It is not anyone on the 40-man roster, as the Rays will have to make room there for Sogard as well.

 

[thehockeysong]

Jays added cash considerations to the trade. Just to flex.

 

[canucksfan]

When will we found out who the PTBNL will be?

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

When will we found out who the PTBNL will be?

 

[dredeye]

Man we threw in some cash.

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

Man we threw in some cash.

So even more added surplus value on top of the 15-20m we already threw in for funsies?

Granted, I like this much more than the Happ trade, cause even though we got less value on paper, the actual pieces are at least more interesting going forward.

 

[dredeye]

So even more added surplus value on top of the 15-20m we already threw in for funsies?

Although the addition of cash is odd without an additional piece but it seems like this return wasn’t all that bad. Time will tell now I suppose.

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

Although the addition of cash is odd without an additional piece but it seems like this return wasn’t all that bad. Time will tell now I suppose.

On the bright side, if the Jays do actually think SWR and Kay as presently constituted are 55FV and 50FV prospects respectively, as MLB.com has them rated, we actually come out ahead by 34M. Not sure this is the case right now, but I could see Woods being a 50 or better eventually.

 

[dredeye]

On the bright side, if the Jays do actually think SWR and Kay as presently constituted are 55FV and 50FV prospects respectively, as MLB.com has them rated, we actually come out ahead by 34M. Not sure this is the case right now, but I could see Woods being a 50 or better eventually.

I know I read today somewhere that the jays were interested in swr in his draft year. So I think they likely had a pretty good understanding of who he was

 

[hockeywiz542]

There’s plenty of blame to go around after Stroman and Blue Jays finalize divorce | The Star

The relationship became much more frayed the following year when Stroman went through arbitration yet again. This time the independent arbiter ruled against him and Stroman didn’t take the decision in stride. Far from it. The product of Duke University went public and blasted the organization by saying: “The negative things that were said against me, by my own team, will never leave my mind.”

The outspoken comments should have prompted both sides to sit down and settle their differences. Instead it appears from that point forward they acted like scorned lovers who could barely stand the sight of each other. The issues carried over into a meeting less than a month later at the club’s stadium in Dunedin, Fla.

The purpose behind the meeting was to inform Stroman that the club would be naming veteran lefty J.A. Happ the opening day starter. Toronto pointed to a lingering shoulder issue as the reason why Stroman would be held out of its first series. According to multiple sources familiar with the incident, Stroman was prepared to meet with manager John Gibbons and pitching coach Pete Walker, but not general manager Ross Atkins, who he asked to leave the room while using some rather colourful language. Conversation between the two has been spotty at best ever since.

There was a glimmer of hope this spring when the Jays and Stroman’s representative avoided arbitration for the first time. In the end, it was nothing more than a small concession made by both parties to avoid another public spat. Any lingering goodwill went out the window a couple of weeks later, though, when Stroman criticized the front office’s lack of moves and openly questioned their desire to win. So much for a possible truce.

Every minute since then has felt like Stroman was just pitching on borrowed time. The Blue Jays tried, and failed, to deal him during the off-season. That turned out to be a fortunate break for Toronto because Stroman’s value is much higher right now than it was back in December, when he was coming off a year in which he went 5-9 with a 5.54 ERA.

Stroman was one of the top available arms at this year’s deadline with a 2.96 ERA over 21 starts. He was supposed to be the missing piece to put a contender over the top and yet, for reasons that are still not clear, it was the non-contending Mets who ended up with the top offer.

The self-proclaimed “New York boy” gets to return home, just not for the Yankees team he was expecting. In Toronto, Stroman leaves behind two appearances in the American League Championship Series, a nod to the all-star game and a whole lot of memories. He also leaves behind a lot of hurt feelings and neither side should avoid criticism for ending a relationship that should have still be going strong for years to come.

 

[Drew311]

This is a frustrating return. This one they needed to hit a homerun on and they appear to have missed. I'm having trouble understanding how this is the best package we could get with all the teams that were interested. I feel like we should have been able to get one or two random prospects with this. Something to make this look a little better

Stroman is an “interesting” dude, which I bet scared some teams off. Or kept them from giving up premium packages. We won’t know if the Jays missed on this trade for 3 - 5 years, so we can’t jump to conclusions hours after the trade.

 

[inthe6ix]

Meh on the return; wish we got Kyle Tucker instead.

Mets are not even in contention.