Roster Speculation Pt. 18

[Jim Bob]

Not a Turris fan myself, but the thinking is basically that ya, the value difference would be enough where it’d make sense to pursue him for virtually nothing instead of likely overpaying for Monahan. As to production, that’s some conjecture on my part, but I worry Monahan would be Vesey 2.0 or somethin- like we’re looking at his past numbers in the best possible situation and assuming they’d carry over to Buffalo, when really it could end up an expensive, poor fit. Whereas Turris ended up in kinda a bad situation, his flaws are well documented.. but if he could be had for nothing and could be a decent 2c to help Skinner that’d be a huge service we paid very little for. All depends on cap and salary retention in that case, but after years of seeing guys brought in only to decline in Buffalo- I’d rather find a guy on the outs who seems a good fit, and with Turris- he has the offensive skill to play 2c. He’d frustrate me, I’m sure, but if he could get 45+ points feeding Skinner.. this all also assumes he really is healthy again, but that’s basically what Preds fans were saying- hurt last year, misused this year. I used to hate the idea of Turris myself, but based on need and value it could make sense.

Anyways

All that said, I most like the 1st for Domi proposal. We gotta return to relevance before Eichel goes to Boston and nothing is good ever again- that pick is like a 70% chance at an NHLer in 3 years, just take the dude who can help now, if that trade is an option.

Turris' age and the length of his contract is the deal breaker to me unless it is something like Okposo for Turris. Even Okposo for Turris isn't ideal as Turris has an additional year on his current deal.

If Turris only had a year or two left on his deal and was a lottery ticket type bridge until Cozens is ready to be a 2C, then I would be more interested.

Before I'm looking at Turris, I would see if the new GM in Arizona were looking to move Stepan, who is entering the last year of his deal. The Stepan+Raanta for Hutton + [fill in the blank] idea that gives the Yotes cap space to try and re-sign Hall isn't a bad short term move that doesn't do long term cap damage.

 

[TehDoak]

I don’t think you understand what a depth chart is. Which would explain your very confusing response to my post.

A depth chart is just listing the pecking order of your roster. Its not putting players were your think they would be on a “good” team nor putting them where you wish they would be.

When you list our centers Mojo comes in as the 2C. My listing him there is nothing more than that and isn’t me advocating for him to be there. I‘m well aware of why he’s there but that doesn’t matter or change the fact that he’s the 2C. The other depth chart point about Mojo is he plays RW as well. There is no way to know which wing he ends up on if and when he gets replaced at 2C. I was taking issue with your assuming he goes to LW on the depth chart when that happens.

As for Kahun, my point there was basically I have no idea where he belongs on the depth chart. He plays both wings and Krueger likes the idea of him at center. He could end up in any of the three positions. I was again taking issue with your assumption he’s going to be a LW.

It was quite bizarre when you argued Krueger wouldn’t stick with a center spine of Jack/Mojo/Kahun if we acquired 2 centers. I didn’t advocate that should be our center spine next season. Let alone that it would remain our center spine even if we acquired 2 centers. I was very confused and amused by this



Again I wasn’t arguing for any players to be in certain spots. Its commenting on our defensive depth chart. Which looks like the following....

Dahlin/Risto
McCabe/Montour
XXX/Joker
XXX/Miller

Not pairing ideas but the depth chart.


On a non depth chart note.. Risto has never played in the role you suggest for him 5v5 (high OZS% deployments). Not sure why you’re suggesting its the type of role he excels in. But I agree with you 100% about his what his PP usage should be. He was also very good this season in one of the toughest defensive deployments in the NHL paired with McCabe. But struggled in a more balanced role playing with Montour.

I get what you are saying. I simply am trying to slot players as I think they should be, not where they are based on the players we have. For example I would never list Johanssen as our 2nd line center, even though, on paper, he is right now. He's a better winger.

On paper, I try to keep wingers on their dominant wing (Left shots LW, Right shots RW), but in practice players do move around for injuries/opportunities. So when i list us having 4 LWs, it's we have 4 left shot wingers (Olofsson/Skinner/Kahun/Johanssen). I think in practice they'll be moved around a bit. I'd still like to get 1 RW and 2 C with Cozens/Thompson fighting for the 3rd RW slot.

As far as Risto, you are right, he's never been sheltered defensively, however, I think he'd do much better being treated like a specialist rather than an all situations d-man. His decision making in transition and his own zone just isn't great. We've put him in situations where his weaknesses (decision making, primarily) are exposed and his strengths (great shot, physicality) aren't highlighted.

 

[Der Jaeger]

Of course you don’t think so. You want to acquire Monahan.

True.

But let's take Monahan out of the equation. Adams can acquire a legit 2C who is offensive in nature. I'd hope (hope!) that Krueger would be flexible enough to run with two offensive lines as his two lines and make sure they get the right ice time. Sullivan can do it in Pittsburgh, Trotz did it in Washington, so there's no reason Krueger can't figure it out.

 

[Archie Lee]

He might be. But, good teams don't assume a 19 year old will be a top 6 forward for them. You go with proven NHL talent and leave lanes for young players to grow into and earn ice time.

If we go into camp with only 5 top 6 forwards because we assume Cozens will be the sixth, we deserve to miss the playoffs for the 10th straight year.

Given our prospect pool, I'm leaving one top 9 forward spot, probably RW given our lack of depth there, open for one of Thompson/Cozens/Mittelstadt to earn.

For some reason people have gotten used to just putting slotting 19 year olds into lineups because we've been bad for so long.

How many 19 year olds on the Bruins roster? The lightning? St Louis? Las Vegas?

If Cozens comes to camp and earns a spot, great.

But, for the love of everything that is holy, let's put together a good enough forward group it's not a necessity.

I agree with you that 19 year olds should not be gifted line-up spots. I think though that while it may be true that we have become conditioned as Sabre fans to thinking highly regarded teenagers will be given a spot on the Sabre roster, it may also be true that we are conditioned to thinking that it will result in failure.

To partially answer your question:

- Since the Bruins cup win in 2010-11 they have deployed 5 teenagers regularly: Seguin, Hamilton, Pasternak, Carlo, McAvoy.
- Since Jon Cooper has been head coach in Tampa, they have used two teenagers regularly in their line-up: Drouin and Sergachev.
- St. Louis used Thomas as a regular last year while winning a Stanley Cup.
- Las Vegas has not used a teenager in three years, though there situation has been somewhat unique given the depth that they were given access to in the expansion draft.

Of those players noted above, only Drouin's career might be said to have been hampered by early exposure. It is always impossible to know, however, how a player would have developed under a different path than the one that was taken. Even then, Drouin has been a bust only in relation to his draft position.

Since 2010-2011 the Sabres have used 8 teenagers as regulars in their line-up: Grigorenko, Girgensons, Ristolainen, Zadorov, Eichel, Reinhart, Mittelstadt and Dahlin. That's too many. Some were obviously not ready (Grigerenko and Mittelstadt to be certain). It seems clear though that there is a factor that is as vital to success as the readiness of the player and that is the suitability of the environment. Great players like Eichel and Dahlin are, I think, hard to ruin. Players who are perhaps on the edge of or just outside of greatness need either more time to develop or a nearer to perfect environment in order to thrive. There is no question that the veteran environments in Boston, Tampa and St. Louis are better suited for the development of a young player who is ready.

I'm not ready to give up on Mittelstadt yet, but imagine if he had broken into the league in 17-18 by playing 65 games split between third line centre and 1st of 2nd line left-wing being either insulated by or playing with Eichel or O'Reilly (with Larsson as centre #4). That is quite a different environment than the one he was brought into.

I don't know how good Dylan Cozens will be. If Cozens is on the team this coming year, then I think the roster additions Adams makes and the players he ends up playing with will be a huge factor in his development.

 

[Aladyyn]

True.

But let's take Monahan out of the equation. Adams can acquire a legit 2C who is offensive in nature. I'd hope (hope!) that Krueger would be flexible enough to run with two offensive lines as his two lines and make sure they get the right ice time. Sullivan can do it in Pittsburgh, Trotz did it in Washington, so there's no reason Krueger can't figure it out.

If Krueger was capable of that, he would have done it with Skinner this season.

 

[Der Jaeger]

If Krueger was capable of that, he would have done it with Skinner this season.

That is true. But I think it makes a difference when you're talking wingers vs. centers. It's not that hard to put an offensive winger on a defensive line with a defensive center and watch it work. Sullivan did that with Kessel.

 

[joshjull]

True.

But let's take Monahan out of the equation. Adams can acquire a legit 2C who is offensive in nature. I'd hope (hope!) that Krueger would be flexible enough to run with two offensive lines as his two lines and make sure they get the right ice time. Sullivan can do it in Pittsburgh, Trotz did it in Washington, so there's no reason Krueger can't figure it out.

Trotz didn’t do that in Washington. Kuznetsov was his top offensive center and Backstrom was a two way/matchup center (those role became even more pronounced in playoffs). I’m not sure what the Pens and Sullivan have to do with this. Those two have always been deployed that way. Sullivan didn’t change anything. Nor is Monahan on the level of those two.

Krueger, like Trotz, has a systematic way he wants to play and the talent they have will not change that. They will fit them into what they want and work with them to get complete buy in to the system. BEFORE anyone comments... I’m not remotely comparing the two in terms of coaching ability just there coaching mentality.

Monahan is an interesting case because he is not exactly what Krueger is looking for (good offensively/not great defensively). But I could see Krueger being willing to work with him to mold him into a player capable of playing in his system.

 

[Doug Prishpreed]

Trotz didn’t do that in Washington. Kuznetsov was his top offensive center and Backstrom was a two way/matchup center (those role became even more pronounced in playoffs). I’m not sure what the Pens and Sullivan have to do with this. Those two have always been deployed that way. Sullivan didn’t change anything. Nor is Monahan on the level of those two.

Krueger, like Trotz, has a systematic way he wants to play and the talent they have will not change that. They will fit them into what they want and work with them to get complete buy in to the system. BEFORE anyone comments... I’m not remotely comparing the two in terms of coaching ability just there coaching mentality.

Monahan is an interesting case because he is not exactly what Krueger is looking for (good offensively/not great defensively). But I could see Krueger being willing to work with him to mold him into a player capable of playing in his system.

It would be nice if the coach didn't have to reform every player on the team...every coach has a few projects who don't play well defensively, but Kruger has had a whole stable of them. Besides his 4th line last season.

I feel like this team needs defensively sound guys who score 15 goals over offensive-only guys who score 30, but I could be wrong there...we do need scoring too. That's why Lundell would make a lot of sense as a draft pick.

 

[Der Jaeger]

Trotz didn’t do that in Washington. Kuznetsov was his top offensive center and Backstrom was a two way/matchup center (those role became even more pronounced in playoffs). I’m not sure what the Pens and Sullivan have to do with this. Those two have always been deployed that way. Sullivan didn’t change anything. Nor is Monahan on the level of those two.

Krueger, like Trotz, has a systematic way he wants to play and the talent they have will not change that. They will fit them into what they want and work with them to get complete buy in to the system. BEFORE anyone comments... I’m not remotely comparing the two in terms of coaching ability just there coaching mentality.

Monahan is an interesting case because he is not exactly what Krueger is looking for (good offensively/not great defensively). But I could see Krueger being willing to work with him to mold him into a player capable of playing in his system.

I remember Backstrom as the secondary match up center, with Eller carrying most of that load. Could be wrong.

Sullivan matters because he's got two centers who need offensive minutes, and makes it work. I get than Monahan isn't Crosby or Malkin, but if Sullivan can take two offensive centers and make it work, Krueger should be able to.

I don't see Krueger the same way you do. I don't think he's the Tom Landry "we have a system here" guy. I think the manner in which he formed the system - by taking all input - leads us to think he'd be willing to change it if the personnel changed.

 

[Beerz]

I think its time to put to bed these plug in guys ... I dont want to see any Stepans or Turris types. Don't count on Cozens or your #8 to be ready to take over one of those types of players this year or next or the following. Go out and get someone who can carry the water now and worry about prospects and where they fit later.

My choice.. go get Monahan

Tampa isn't trading Cirelli in division if they trade him at all

 

[joshjull]

I remember Backstrom as the secondary match up center, with Eller carrying most of that load. Could be wrong.

Backstrom was a two way/matchup center for Trotz and played roughly 2-3mins more a night (5v5) than Ellers.

Sullivan matters because he's got two centers who need offensive minutes, and makes it work. I get than Monahan isn't Crosby or Malkin, but if Sullivan can take two offensive centers and make it work, Krueger should be able to.

We’re not debating if deploying your top 2 centers offensively can work. We’re debating if Krueger would actually do something like that. On that front Sullivan can’t tell us anything.

I don't see Krueger the same way you do. I don't think he's the Tom Landry "we have a system here" guy. I think the manner in which he formed the system - by taking all input - leads us to think he'd be willing to change it if the personnel changed.

I think you’ve gone so far down the rabbit hole to defend a trade proposal that your opinion of Krueger no longer lines up with the reality of Krueger.

 

[MarkusKetterer]

I think its time to put to bed these plug in guys ... I dont want to see any Stepans or Turris types. Don't count on Cozens or your #8 to be ready to take over one of those types of players this year or next or the following. Go out and get someone who can carry the water now and worry about prospects and where they fit later.

My choice.. go get Monahan

Tampa isn't trading Cirelli in division if they trade him at all

To get someone like Monahan will absolutely cost though. Cozens and/or 8th is going back the other way. Plus someone like Reinhart. We’re basically plugging one leak by cutting out a patch from another part of the hull.

Getting players like Stepan or Strome is plugging those holes in the hull by using the metal in the light cover screens.



This analogy was a lot clearer in my head when I started it.

 

[Buffaloed]

continued
Roster Speculation Pt. 19