Speculation: Roster Speculation: 2017-18 Part 1

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Der Jaeger

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Only part I disagree with.

Well, that's good, because there's a lot there to disagree with! :laugh:

I'm absolutely aboard the Carrier-Okposo winger match. I think they're very good together. Carrier does a lot of what Kane does, except he keeps possession, is a better passer, isn't a volume shooter, is way better defensively, and has better hockey IQ. That takes a lot of pressure off Okposo.

Okposo loves to have the puck. I think that limits O'Reilly some. When they played together, I thought they took turns ragging the puck. I'd like to see the Carrier-Okposo pair with Reinhart, who doesn't need the puck to be effective.

I've always thought O'Reilly was a great center for the Jamie McGinn's of the world, as well. A pair like Foligno-Fasching might work great with O'Reilly.

But, I'm not really hung up with the line particulars. I'm concerned with the construction in a larger sense, which was in my last post.
 

Goblin King

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Jun 23, 2015
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Taking a look around the league at playoff time is dangerous. It leads to folks wanting to build exactly the way other teams are built. All kinds of talk about the "LA model," "Chicago model," and the Pittsburgh model."

However, I think it is important to see trends for what they are. That's what I'm interested in, and watched games closely looking for them. And I've noticed a trend in scoring lines.

Disclaimer: I'm using the term "3rd line" though I don't believe it's a good term. As soon as one uses the term "3rd line," a lot of folks think Mike Peca, and the checking line from EA sports NHL game. I agree with Scotty Bowman - don't number your lines, just refer to them by the center. But for simplicity in writing, I'll use the term "3rd line." I do not think at 3rd line is a checking, defensive, or otherwise different line than the "1st line" or "2nd line."

Look at Anaheim, Pittsburgh, and Ottawa. What's the similarity? It's putting an actual scoring threat on the third line to create depth. The Pens did it last year with Kessel on the third line. Chicago has done it in the past, moving Patrick Sharp to the third line. LA had Mike Richards on the third line.

Pittsburgh: Kessel or Hornqvist has been with the third line with Bonino almost all playoffs. See how important Hornqvist has been. Traditional non-1st liners with Crosby and Malkin.

Anaheim: Rakell and/or Perry on the third line with Vermette almost the whole playoffs. Rakell has been there more. Traditional non-1st liners with Getzlaf.

Ottawa: Pageau as the third line center, and he's been very effective. Ottawa is a rare team that has a traditional top 6, but with Pageau as the 3C, they have tremendous scoring depth.

Take a look at how their opponents reacted:

Washington: Ran a traditional stacked top six, and a traditional bottom six. Moved Ovechkin off the line with Backstrom, and onto a line with Eller, for game 5. Created three scoring lines. Burakovsky added needed puck retrieval and possession skills to the Backstrom line. Won their next two games.

Edmonton: Stacked their top two lines for the first five games. Broke up McDavid and Draisaitl for game 6. Immediately destroyed Anaheim. RNH and Draisaitl played with good wingers, McDavid played with more ordinary wingers.

Rangers: Stayed with a traditional top 6 and bottom 6, though the Hayes-Grabner line was good.

----------------------------------------------------

The teams that stay true to three scoring lines (Anaheim, Pittsburgh, and Ottawa) often had non-traditional top 6 players with their top centers:

Anaheim had Ritchie and Eaves with Getzlaf. Those two wingers were able to battle for the puck on the forecheck, which created a lot of time and space for Getzlaf. Getzlaf didn't need great wingers to produce. He needed wingers to do the dirty work. Buffalo needs to take a look at this method for Eichel. Eichel doesn't really need great wingers, he needs big, fast wingers who can get the puck back to him in space.

Pittsburgh has Sheary, Guentzel, and Rust with Crosby. Fast wingers with great hockey IQ who could go get the puck for Crosby, then know where to go to receive a pass.

Ottawa is alone among these teams, putting traditional top 6 wingers with Turris and Brassard.

Only Nashville advanced without this forward line construction, but they have the unique top 4 defensively. Which, in my opinion, is a lot harder to replicate.

-----------------------------------

So, what should Buffalo do?

I think it's obvious: build three scoring lines. And with the center spine or Eichel, O'Reilly, and Reinhart, they are in perfect position to do so.

As previously mentioned, the Sabres don't need to go acquire a winger like Duchene or skilled winger to play with Eichel. He'd be just fine with lesser wingers. Eichel needs wingers to go get the puck along the boards, skate with him, don't rely on having the puck on their stick, and help on defense. Wingers that could play with him are Girgensons, Baptiste, Bailey, and possibly Carrier.

O'Reilly is easy to build around. He can make up for defensive issues for the wingers, and can play both with or without the puck. He's not produced with Kane, and I don't think Okposo is a great fit, since Okposo needs the puck a lot. Other than that, build with whoever.

Reinhart is fairly easy to build around. His wingers are best as bigger, faster wingers who create time and space for him. He'd also be good with Okposo, since Reinhart doesn't need the puck a lot to be effective.

------------------------------------

I think that having scoring depth over three lines is the way Botterill, the new head coach, and the Sabres need to approach the team's construction. It's clear that teams with three scoring lines playing another team with traditional top 6, bottom 6 construction had the advantage. I'm not posting lines, since that's what everyone will gravitate to. But my thoughts above are what the team needs to be thinking about when building lines. Washington and Edmonton are very good teams that got beat by teams because they could not match their scoring depth, until they finally created it themselves.

No reason to trade Reinhart. Use Kane, 8OA, and free agency to rebuild the defense. Ditch ideas about stacking a top 6, unless the team has 7 actual top 6 forwards where the 7th forward can drive the third line. Time to get in line with NHL reality.

I rarely post, but I read these boards quite often. Just signed in to applaud this very well thought out post.
 

sabrebuild

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Apr 21, 2014
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Well, that's good, because there's a lot there to disagree with! :laugh:

I'm absolutely aboard the Carrier-Okposo winger match. I think they're very good together. Carrier does a lot of what Kane does, except he keeps possession, is a better passer, isn't a volume shooter, is way better defensively, and has better hockey IQ. That takes a lot of pressure off Okposo.

Okposo loves to have the puck. I think that limits O'Reilly some. When they played together, I thought they took turns ragging the puck. I'd like to see the Carrier-Okposo pair with Reinhart, who doesn't need the puck to be effective.

I've always thought O'Reilly was a great center for the Jamie McGinn's of the world, as well. A pair like Foligno-Fasching might work great with O'Reilly.

But, I'm not really hung up with the line particulars. I'm concerned with the construction in a larger sense, which was in my last post.

I'd like to see O'Reilly on the wing with Eichel. The ultimate dirty work guy for jack, who is smart enough to read the play at the same speed as jack.

Let Kane, if he is still here be the offensive threat on a line with Larson.
 

Der Jaeger

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Feb 14, 2009
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I'd like to see O'Reilly on the wing with Eichel. The ultimate dirty work guy for jack, who is smart enough to read the play at the same speed as jack.

Let Kane, if he is still here be the offensive threat on a line with Larson.

I think that's a waste of O'Reilly.
 

Jame

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Sep 4, 2002
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Well, that's good, because there's a lot there to disagree with! :laugh:

I'm absolutely aboard the Carrier-Okposo winger match. I think they're very good together. Carrier does a lot of what Kane does, except he keeps possession, is a better passer, isn't a volume shooter, is way better defensively, and has better hockey IQ. That takes a lot of pressure off Okposo.

Okposo loves to have the puck. I think that limits O'Reilly some. When they played together, I thought they took turns ragging the puck. I'd like to see the Carrier-Okposo pair with Reinhart, who doesn't need the puck to be effective.

I've always thought O'Reilly was a great center for the Jamie McGinn's of the world, as well. A pair like Foligno-Fasching might work great with O'Reilly.

But, I'm not really hung up with the line particulars. I'm concerned with the construction in a larger sense, which was in my last post.

ROR's GF/GA differential with Okposo is better than with any other player he's played at least 300 minutes with over the last 4 years... and by a significant margin among forwards.

Player Diff
OKPOSO, KYLE 0.76
LANDESKOG, GABRIEL 0.47
TANGUAY, ALEX 0.44
REINHART, SAM 0.39
ENNIS, TYLER 0.34
MACKINNON, NATHAN 0.18
MOULSON, MATT 0.17
O_REILLY, RYAN -0.13
DUCHENE, MATT -0.23
PARENTEAU, PIERRE -0.61
MCGINN, JAMIE -0.63
GIONTA, BRIAN -0.9
KANE, EVANDER -1.09
 

sabrebuild

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I think that's a waste of O'Reilly.

See I think of it as maximizing his utility. He gets to be the defensive conscience for the line, which jack needs. He gets less pressure to carry a line in both ends. And we know he is very effective on the wing.

I think you can get enough out of Larson to still have a very strong center spine.

You could easily bounce back to O'Reilly at center, but hey we didn't have two years to test it out...

On a side note, O'Reilly can only be wasted if he is played 24 minutes a game. He is so versatile, shifting to the wing does not limit his effectiveness.
 

Jame

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See I think of it as maximizing his utility. He gets to be the defensive conscience for the line, which jack needs. He gets less pressure to carry a line in both ends. And we know he is very effective on the wing.

I think you can get enough out of Larson to still have a very strong center spine.

You could easily bounce back to O'Reilly at center, but hey we didn't have two years to test it out...

On a side note, O'Reilly can only be wasted if he is played 24 minutes a game. He is so versatile, shifting to the wing does not limit his effectiveness.

I want to see ROR-Eichel utilized together when we shorten the bench late in games, down a goal.

I do not want to see ROR-Eichel as a primary line pairing... I hate the idea of a 7.5 million dollar winger for an elite franchise center.
 

Rasmus CacOlainen

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I want to see ROR-Eichel utilized together when we shorten the bench late in games, down a goal.

I do not want to see ROR-Eichel as a primary line pairing... I hate the idea of a 7.5 million dollar winger for an elite franchise center.

Gotta agree fully with this but regardless, from his comments it seems Bott considers ROR+Eichel the 1C-2C combo and it's not even up for debate. Maybe some coach changes his mind but highly doubt. It seems he is looking for a coach that they can openly discuss things like that so I assume his firm position on this would be quite influential to the future coach.
 

Chainshot

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Carrier-ROR-Okposo getting a majority dose of the heavy defense minutes, augmented by another line (say Larsson 1B with Reinhart as option 2), allowing Eichel and wingers to be more freelance offensively works for me.
 

Jame

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Sep 4, 2002
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Carrier-ROR-Okposo getting a majority dose of the heavy defense minutes, augmented by another line (say Larsson 1B with Reinhart as option 2), allowing Eichel and wingers to be more freelance offensively works for me.

Yup.
 

Icicle

Think big
Oct 16, 2005
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Carrier-Eichel-Rodriguez
Girgs-ROR-Okposo
Kane-Reinhart-Bailey/Baptiste/Fasching
Moulson-Larsson-Foligno

You don't need to acquire tons of players to make the offense sensible. You just need a useful system that doesn't undermine our players and better combinations. This line-up has plenty of compeet and good balance all around. It lets Reinhart get a little sheltering for his transition to center at the NHL level. He can still get PP1 minutes, which was where his production so far has been anyway. If Kane is dealt, I don't see problems having at least Baptiste/Bailey in those spots.

I don't see Des nor Ennis anywhere in this picture. I do see a vet WINGER signing for the bottom-6 helping the depth and "competition". I don't see a vet center signing with the price that position brings along with it. I don't see us acquiring anyone in the top-6 on a reasonable contract, though pegging Oshie to Eichel is dreamy and if we managed to overpay to get that I will find ways to be happy with it.

We need 4 solid lines again, not three, that turns into just two when Larsson goes down. Spread ROR, Eichel, and Reinhart out until the powerplay or lategame, please.
 

Rasmus CacOlainen

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What I found interesting from Bott's interview this morning is his relative openness to exploring offersheets even though he said value is not often there in terms of compensation. Do we see any potential move in that direction which may work out in our favour. It seems our GM is not afraid of the method as long as value is there.
 

Sabre Dance

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What I found interesting from Bott's interview this morning is his relative openness to exploring offersheets even though he said value is not always there in terms of compensation. Do we see any potential move in that direction which may work out in our favour. It seems our GM is not afraid of the method as long as value is there.
The only problem is the likelihood a team allows one of their top players to leave for futures isn't very high. It's almost a waste of time. Say we go after Colton Parayko, there is little chance we get him.
 

Rasmus CacOlainen

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The only problem is the likelihood a team allows one of their top players to leave for futures isn't very high. It's almost a waste of time. Say we go after Colton Parayko, there is little chance we get him.

Yeah thats clear but Im sure some teams will find it harder to match or even not needed depending on their situation. Bott acknowledged that but did say that the fact that a team would likely match shouldnt stop us from trying our luck for the right target.
 

Sabre Dance

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Yeah thats clear but Im sure some teams will find it harder to match or even not needed depending on their situation. Bott acknowledged that but did say that the fact that a team would likely match shouldnt stop us from trying our luck for the right target.

Yeah, hopefully all options are on the table. I'm sure they are. He seems like a very methodical person though, patient. I wouldn't expect many big moves until the team is a contender.

We will see the Sabres developing their top players.
 

struckbyaparkedcar

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What I found interesting from Bott's interview this morning is his relative openness to exploring offersheets even though he said value is not often there in terms of compensation. Do we see any potential move in that direction which may work out in our favour. It seems our GM is not afraid of the method as long as value is there.
Kempny, Dumoulin.
 

Jame

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Sep 4, 2002
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So the Toronto model?

Im not sure which side you fall on this one, so I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not.

I hate the "model" arguments.

I think there are arguments for usage and deployment, arguments for chemistry/fit, lineups that work, pairings that don't, etc.... but trying to model off other rosters is stupid.
 

Jame

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Sep 4, 2002
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What I found interesting from Bott's interview this morning is his relative openness to exploring offersheets even though he said value is not often there in terms of compensation. Do we see any potential move in that direction which may work out in our favour. It seems our GM is not afraid of the method as long as value is there.

I think RFA Offersheets are a tool in trade negotiations.

I would think given his success, that Justin Schultz would be a trade target for which an offersheet might present some leverage.

Pittsburgh is always going to be tight to the cap, and they've got to re-sign Schultz, Dumoulin, and Sheary
 

struckbyaparkedcar

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The lack of vocabulary for lineup skeletons sucks.

What you guys are proposing is very similar to what Toronto did this year up front, especially after adding Boyle.
 

Djp

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Jul 28, 2012
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If we hold onto pick 8, there's like a 98% chance it's a dman, based on these pressers.

If a deal of Reinhart fir Hanifin then can see them going gorward. If focus on Dmen and nobody there then they could trade down to the teens and pick a Dman.

Taking a look around the league at playoff time is dangerous. It leads to folks wanting to build exactly the way other teams are built. All kinds of talk about the "LA model," "Chicago model," and the Pittsburgh model."

However, I think it is important to see trends for what they are. That's what I'm interested in, and watched games closely looking for them. And I've noticed a trend in scoring lines.

Disclaimer: I'm using the term "3rd line" though I don't believe it's a good term. As soon as one uses the term "3rd line," a lot of folks think Mike Peca, and the checking line from EA sports NHL game. I agree with Scotty Bowman - don't number your lines, just refer to them by the center. But for simplicity in writing, I'll use the term "3rd line." I do not think at 3rd line is a checking, defensive, or otherwise different line than the "1st line" or "2nd line."

Look at Anaheim, Pittsburgh, and Ottawa. What's the similarity? It's putting an actual scoring threat on the third line to create depth. The Pens did it last year with Kessel on the third line. Chicago has done it in the past, moving Patrick Sharp to the third line. LA had Mike Richards on the third line.

Pittsburgh: Kessel or Hornqvist has been with the third line with Bonino almost all playoffs. See how important Hornqvist has been. Traditional non-1st liners with Crosby and Malkin.

Anaheim: Rakell and/or Perry on the third line with Vermette almost the whole playoffs. Rakell has been there more. Traditional non-1st liners with Getzlaf.

Ottawa: Pageau as the third line center, and he's been very effective. Ottawa is a rare team that has a traditional top 6, but with Pageau as the 3C, they have tremendous scoring depth.

Take a look at how their opponents reacted:

Washington: Ran a traditional stacked top six, and a traditional bottom six. Moved Ovechkin off the line with Backstrom, and onto a line with Eller, for game 5. Created three scoring lines. Burakovsky added needed puck retrieval and possession skills to the Backstrom line. Won their next two games.

Edmonton: Stacked their top two lines for the first five games. Broke up McDavid and Draisaitl for game 6. Immediately destroyed Anaheim. RNH and Draisaitl played with good wingers, McDavid played with more ordinary wingers.

Rangers: Stayed with a traditional top 6 and bottom 6, though the Hayes-Grabner line was good.

----------------------------------------------------

The teams that stay true to three scoring lines (Anaheim, Pittsburgh, and Ottawa) often had non-traditional top 6 players with their top centers:

Anaheim had Ritchie and Eaves with Getzlaf. Those two wingers were able to battle for the puck on the forecheck, which created a lot of time and space for Getzlaf. Getzlaf didn't need great wingers to produce. He needed wingers to do the dirty work. Buffalo needs to take a look at this method for Eichel. Eichel doesn't really need great wingers, he needs big, fast wingers who can get the puck back to him in space.

Pittsburgh has Sheary, Guentzel, and Rust with Crosby. Fast wingers with great hockey IQ who could go get the puck for Crosby, then know where to go to receive a pass.

Ottawa is alone among these teams, putting traditional top 6 wingers with Turris and Brassard.

Only Nashville advanced without this forward line construction, but they have the unique top 4 defensively. Which, in my opinion, is a lot harder to replicate.

-----------------------------------

So, what should Buffalo do?

I think it's obvious: build three scoring lines. And with the center spine or Eichel, O'Reilly, and Reinhart, they are in perfect position to do so.

As previously mentioned, the Sabres don't need to go acquire a winger like Duchene or skilled winger to play with Eichel. He'd be just fine with lesser wingers. Eichel needs wingers to go get the puck along the boards, skate with him, don't rely on having the puck on their stick, and help on defense. Wingers that could play with him are Girgensons, Baptiste, Bailey, and possibly Carrier.

O'Reilly is easy to build around. He can make up for defensive issues for the wingers, and can play both with or without the puck. He's not produced with Kane, and I don't think Okposo is a great fit, since Okposo needs the puck a lot. Other than that, build with whoever.

Reinhart is fairly easy to build around. His wingers are best as bigger, faster wingers who create time and space for him. He'd also be good with Okposo, since Reinhart doesn't need the puck a lot to be effective.

------------------------------------

I think that having scoring depth over three lines is the way Botterill, the new head coach, and the Sabres need to approach the team's construction. It's clear that teams with three scoring lines playing another team with traditional top 6, bottom 6 construction had the advantage. I'm not posting lines, since that's what everyone will gravitate to. But my thoughts above are what the team needs to be thinking about when building lines. Washington and Edmonton are very good teams that got beat by teams because they could not match their scoring depth, until they finally created it themselves.

No reason to trade Reinhart. Use Kane, 8OA, and free agency to rebuild the defense. Ditch ideas about stacking a top 6, unless the team has 7 actual top 6 forwards where the 7th forward can drive the third line. Time to get in line with NHL reality.

I'm on a cell so I can't easily efit what I quote.

I agree the 3 line offensive system. With Eichel. Teinhart, ROR/

Nashville isn't different. They can run 3 offensive lines sine the have 3 scoring wingers.
 

Chainshot

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The lack of vocabulary for lineup skeletons sucks.

What you guys are proposing is very similar to what Toronto did this year up front, especially after adding Boyle.

We could call it the Pens model. The Toronto model... the Sabres co-cap model. If they win, I'm good. :D
 

Chainshot

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I think RFA Offersheets are a tool in trade negotiations.

I would think given his success, that Justin Schultz would be a trade target for which an offersheet might present some leverage.

Pittsburgh is always going to be tight to the cap, and they've got to re-sign Schultz, Dumoulin, and Sheary

Still funny that Schultz was also a rumored target for Murray prior to him going to the Pens. He ticks some boxes, both in terms of puck movement (or muckment as I just typed :biglaugh: ) and possible availability. Situationally, Schultz made the most of his time.
 
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