Line Combos: Roster/lines discussion

[urn]

C'mon guys JR is not that bad. We do pretty damn well for a small southern city. And we just got J Staal and Semin over the offseason.

 

[normalpsychology]

let's do an inventory of everything we've lost over the years to what we've gained... yeah....

missing the playoffs 7 years out of the past 9... JR really must be doing something right. Is there any other team that would hold onto their GM through that??

I guess if you set a goal at being a sub par southern team we have something to be proud of??

 

[Joe McGrath]

let's do an inventory of everything we've lost over the years to what we've gained... yeah....

missing the playoffs 7 years out of the past 9... JR really must be doing something right. Is there any other team that would hold onto their GM through that??

I guess if you set a goal at being a sub par southern team we have something to be proud of??

Please do that inventory. I'd be interested in seeing the results.

 

[Xylo]

Sign Arnott to a decent one year (maybe two), plop him on third line center, throw a Checker or two on the wings. He brings a veteran presence the team doesn't really possess, will help with developing prospects (much like Cole did with a rookie Skinner), and would provide a decent anchor to a third scoring line. He won't be one to make many mistakes and should have a calming affect for those on the ice with him. I like this way friggin more than throwing Jokinen in on center. He's a winger. I like it more than Dalpe or Boychuk or Welsh centering the third line as well, way too inexperienced and not worth the risk in a shortened season IMO.

Woah this was already suggested. I should read more.

 

[DaveG]

Please do that inventory. I'd be interested in seeing the results.

Our biggest problem is that this team has never had the finances to remain competitive. The team that won the Cup was pretty damn old, and we never made the moves in free agency to replace the departing/retiring players adequately.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Hard to make a complete list as there is fluctuation from year to year and players have come and gone, traded for one another, etc.... but I'll try. I'm sure I'll miss a few.

Off the top of my head, here are the more major (although some are debatable) players LOST (not resigned or traded) by Carolina in recent years that still had some decent value:

Justin Williams
Cory Stillman (albeit, he was up there in age and production was tailing off)
EriK Cole (Lost, Gained, Lost)
Ray Whitney
Matt Cullen (Lost, Gained, Lost)
Andrew Ladd
Dennis Seidenburg
Brandon Sutter
Bryan Allen
Jack Johnson (including him even though he wasn't an NHL player at the time since he brought Gleason below)

I am not including rentals (Recchi and Weight) who we pretty much knew were rentals when they were acquired, but BOTH of those were good moves by the Canes and fall into the "gained and lost" categories.

Here are the list of Key players on the Canes "GAINED" (TRADE, UFA, DRAFT) over that same timeframe (excluding players gained, then lost afterwards)

Joni Pitkanen
Tim Gleason
Jussi Jokinen
Tuomo Ruutu
Jordan Staal
Jeff Skinner
Justin Faulk
Jamie McBain
Jiri Tlusty
Alex Semin
Joe Corvo (Gained, Lost, Gained, Lost, Gained)

There are other minor decent pieces lost (Craig Adams for instance) and other minor, but decent pieces gained (Dwyer, Brent and Harrison for instance).

Now, there is also a pretty long list others that JR acquired for little or no cost with mostly poor results as well:

Guys like Scott Walker, Sergei Samsonov, Trevor Letowski, Ian White, Aaron Ward (v2), Andrew Alberts, Stephan Yelle, Jeff Hamilton, Tom Kostopolous, Patrick Eaves, Anthony Stewart, Alexi Ponikarovsky, Tomas Kaberle, Anton Babchuk, Josef Melichar, David Tanabe, Derek Joslin, Anson Carter.

Many of those were low risk trials and/or weren't expected to be key contributors to the team, but a few of them were.

As I said, I'm sure I missed a few. Make of it what you will.

 

[the halleJOKEL]

I don't see how that inventory proves anything, especially when nearly everything is taken out of context.

 

[AhoLottaLove]

Is Semin back from Siberia?

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I don't see how that inventory proves anything, especially when nearly everything is taken out of context.

I agree, it doesn't prove anything. Someone asked for an inventory so I posted what I could remember, but I didn't draw any conclusions from it.

 

[CanesAvs16]

Is Semin back from Siberia?

@ice_chip: Was told Alex Semin should be in Raleigh either late Thursday night or Friday.

i cannot find the link for this.

edit: I saw this as a retweet instead of the originial tweet

 

[Vagrant]

I would count Radim Vrbata under significant losses. A stylistic nightmare for Laviolette, but has rounded into a strong two way player for Phoenix.

 

[Joe McGrath]

I agree, it doesn't prove anything. Someone asked for an inventory so I posted what I could remember, but I didn't draw any conclusions from it.

I asked for the inventory mostly because I didn't think it would prove anything as a previous poster said if you look at the inventory it's obvious JR is terrible or something to that effect. I think he's mediocre, and the product on the ice has reflected that and honestly so did your quick inventory.

 

[garnetpalmetto]

Hard to make a complete list as there is fluctuation from year to year and players have come and gone, traded for one another, etc.... but I'll try. I'm sure I'll miss a few.

Off the top of my head, here are the more major (although some are debatable) players LOST (not resigned or traded) by Carolina in recent years that still had some decent value:

Justin Williams
Cory Stillman (albeit, he was up there in age and production was tailing off)
EriK Cole (Lost, Gained, Lost)
Ray Whitney
Matt Cullen (Lost, Gained, Lost)
Andrew Ladd
Dennis Seidenburg
Brandon Sutter
Bryan Allen
Jack Johnson (including him even though he wasn't an NHL player at the time since he brought Gleason below)

I am not including rentals (Recchi and Weight) who we pretty much knew were rentals when they were acquired, but BOTH of those were good moves by the Canes and fall into the "gained and lost" categories.

Here are the list of Key players on the Canes "GAINED" (TRADE, UFA, DRAFT) over that same timeframe (excluding players gained, then lost afterwards)

Joni Pitkanen
Tim Gleason
Jussi Jokinen
Tuomo Ruutu
Jordan Staal
Jeff Skinner
Justin Faulk
Jamie McBain
Jiri Tlusty
Alex Semin
Joe Corvo (Gained, Lost, Gained, Lost, Gained)

There are other minor decent pieces lost (Craig Adams for instance) and other minor, but decent pieces gained (Dwyer, Brent and Harrison for instance).

Now, there is also a pretty long list others that JR acquired for little or no cost with mostly poor results as well:

Guys like Scott Walker, Sergei Samsonov, Trevor Letowski, Ian White, Aaron Ward (v2), Andrew Alberts, Stephan Yelle, Jeff Hamilton, Tom Kostopolous, Patrick Eaves, Anthony Stewart, Alexi Ponikarovsky, Tomas Kaberle, Anton Babchuk, Josef Melichar, David Tanabe, Derek Joslin, Anson Carter.

Many of those were low risk trials and/or weren't expected to be key contributors to the team, but a few of them were.

As I said, I'm sure I missed a few. Make of it what you will.

Small correction for your inventory, Boom Boom - you first list "players LOST (not resigned or traded)" but a few players on that list *were* traded. Williams was traded to the Kings in the three-way trade that saw Cole come back to us from the Oilers. Sutter was traded to the Pens for Jordan Staal. Stillman was initially traded to the Sens along with Commodore for Eaves and Corvo. Ladd was traded for Ruutu. Cullen, depending on which time we lost him you look at, was traded to the Sens for Alexandre Picard.

Also to add a name to that list:

-Martin Gerber

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

Small correction for your inventory, Boom Boom - you first list "players LOST (not resigned or traded)" but a few players on that list *were* traded. Williams was traded to the Kings in the three-way trade that saw Cole come back to us from the Oilers. Sutter was traded to the Pens for Jordan Staal. Stillman was initially traded to the Sens along with Commodore for Eaves and Corvo. Ladd was traded for Ruutu. Cullen, depending on which time we lost him you look at, was traded to the Sens for Alexandre Picard.

Also to add a name to that list:

-Martin Gerber

I think you misread what he said... The only way to really lose a player is to not resign or to trade a player, so he was just clarifying what "losing" a player really mean. Traded players are included.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Small correction for your inventory, Boom Boom - you first list "players LOST (not resigned or traded)" but a few players on that list *were* traded.

Sorry, poorly written on my part. What I meant was that these players were either not re-signed or they were traded.

I did forget about Gerber.

 

[garnetpalmetto]

Sorry, poorly written on my part. What I meant was that these players were either not re-signed or they were traded.

I did forget about Gerber.

Fair enough! Sorry for any misunderstanding

 

[DaveG]

Retirement:
Rod Brind'amour
Glen Wesley
Frank Kaberle
Cory Stillman

UFA losses:
Erik Cole
Doug Weight (prev. acquired for 2006 1st, Kahnberg, Zigomanis, Boulerice)
Mark Recchi (prev. acquired for 2006 2nd, Kolanos, Nordgren)
Bret Hedican
Matt Cullen (lost, re-acquired, lost again)
Aaron Ward (later re-acquired)
Martin Gerber
Ray Whitney
Josef Vasicek (traded for Scott Walker, re-acquired, lost)
Denis Seidenberg (prev. acquired for Kev Adams, lost to UFA)
Bryan Allen (prev. acquired for Sergei Samsonov)

Lost via Trade:
Radim Vrbata (Chi 4th 2007)
Mike Commodore (and Stillman for Patrick Eaves, Joe Corvo)
Patrick Eaves (and Car 4th 2010 for Aaron Ward)
Aaron Ward (for Justin Pogge, Bos 4th 2010 (Justin Shugg))
Nicklas Wallin (Buf 2nd 2010 (Mark Alt) and Derek Joslin)
Jack Johnson and Oleg Tverdovsky (for Tim Gleason and Eric Belanger)
Andrew Ladd (for Tuomo Ruutu)
Anton Babchuk and Tom Kostopoulos (for Ian White, Brett Sutter)
Ian White (for SJ 2nd 2012 (Brock McGinn))
Brandon Sutter, Brian Dumoulin, 2012 1st (for Jordan Staal)
Sergei Samsonov (prev. waiver claim, for Bryan Allen)
Stephane Yelle (pref. UFA acquisition)

UFA Player gains:
Alexander Semin
Joe Corvo
Brian Boucher
Jay Harrison
Patrick Dwyer
Anthony Stewart
Tim Brent

Trade Player Gains:
Joni Pitkanen
Tim Gleason
Tuomo Ruutu
Jussi Jokinen (acq. for Josef Melicrap, Wade Brookbank, 3rd that was forfeited... seriously, look that one up)
Jiri Tlusty (acq. for Philippe Paradis)
Brett Sutter
Mark Alt (drafted with acq. pick)
Austin Levi (drafted with acq. pick)
Justin Shugg (drafted with acq. pick)
Riley Nash (traded for acq. pick)
Bobby Sanguinetti (traded for acq. pick)

Top Drafted/Signed prospects:
Jeff Skinner
Jamie McBain
Justin Faulk
Drayson Bowman
Zach Boychuk
Zac Dalpe
Jeremy Welsh
Ryan Murphy
Victor Rask
Danny Biega

so yeah, as you can see, deceptively slow rebuild since the 05-06 season. IMO the biggest part of that is the team's financial inability to keep its solid but non-vital impending UFAs. Guys like Cullen, Gerber, and Aaron Ward walked over money the Canes couldn't spend, and guys like Seidenberg and Cole walked over contract length which the Canes couldn't afford to eat dead years like larger markets are able to. The only big miscalculation loss was Whitney as Hedican ended up retiring the next season anyway. They tried to keep Weight and Recchi, but both were rentals that preferred returning to their old teams.

The trades, while there are one or two value miscalculations (Ward, White) or undersellings (Vrbata) are for the most part fairly even. There are some where the Canes got taken a bit by selling too young (Ladd) or not selling at prime value (Johnson) but that still ended up as fair trades. More to the point the Vrbata trade's the only one where the Canes got royally taken (and it was the trade after where his value exploded, not in Chicago), whereas they've taken a few trades decisively (Wallin trade, Jokinen trade, Tlusty trade).

The issue we're running in to is that a lot of the pre-2006 drafts are giving minimal yield right now and many of the top prospects are still too young to be making an impact. But in the end, a large part of the damage done has been because of financial difficulties. The failure of Boychuk, Dalpe, and the 09 draft as a whole to stick has slowed us down a bit, but there's plenty of time left for Boychuk and Dalpe, especially as Boychuk seems to have turned a corner a bit in the AHL so far this season.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

Looks like JR said again that he wants to add one more 3rd/4th line forward to add some grit.

My hope: Jason Arnott

Actuality: Tim Wallace come on down!

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Chip Alexander ‏@ice_chip

On third line center situation, Muller mentions Jokinen can play center and could be possibility. Also mentioned Welsh.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

I really don't like how JR has been handling this Welsh situation. The way I look at it, there's three guys competing for that spot in camp, Welsh, Nash, and Brent, with Jokinen taking it by default if none of them step up. JR needs to stop putting expectations on this kid, he's got some size and some goal scoring ability but if he's not ready he's not ready.

 

[tomdundo]

This one jumps out at me:


Chip Alexander ‏@ice_chip
Rutherford says 6-7 players who started season with Checkers could start season with Canes.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I really don't like how JR has been handling this Welsh situation. The way I look at it, there's three guys competing for that spot in camp, Welsh, Nash, and Brent, with Jokinen taking it by default if none of them step up. JR needs to stop putting expectations on this kid, he's got some size and some goal scoring ability but if he's not ready he's not ready.

That's pretty common with JR though. He did that with Sutter as a rookie, he pretty much annointted Dalpe a spot a couple of year ago, etc..

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

This one jumps out at me:


Chip Alexander ‏@ice_chip
Rutherford says 6-7 players who started season with Checkers could start season with Canes.

Locks:
Faulk
Bowman
Welsh (just the way JR's talking about him)

Close to locks:
One of Peters/Ellis

So that leaves 2 of:

Boychuk, Dalpe, Sanguinetti, Gragnani, Nash, Sutter, Terry

Not particularly surprising, especially considering with a shortened season we might be trying to give some guys some rest...

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

That's pretty common with JR though. He did that with Sutter as a rookie, he pretty much annointted Dalpe a spot a couple of year ago, etc..

Haha I know, I'm just finally ****ing sick of it.

 

[DaveG]

This one jumps out at me:


Chip Alexander ‏@ice_chip
Rutherford says 6-7 players who started season with Checkers could start season with Canes.

Not a huge surprise

1 - Faulk (duh)
2 - #7 dman whether that's Grags, Sangs, Krueger, or Jordan
3 - Bowman (was never actually assigned to Charlotte, signed there on an AHL contract during lockout, would have to be waived to go down)
4 - Welsh, could be used on 3rd or 4th line
5 - Wallace or Nash
6 - possibly Ellis or Humpydawg
7 - possibly Stewart to AHL, more offensive #13 forward up (Boychuk?)

Tlusty - Staal - Semin
Skinner - Staal - LaRose
Bowman - Welsh - Jokinen
Nodl - Brent - Dwyer
Wallace, Boychuk

Pitkanen - Faulk
Gleason - Corvo
Harrison - McBain
Sanguinetti

Ward
Ellis

there's your 7