Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XXXIX

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Ori

#Connor Bedard 2023 1st, Chicago Blackhawks
Nov 7, 2014
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Yes he is not 2014 Callahan and he had some serious injuries, but we could eat his contract just to use cap since we need to use cap it seems, but it will cost Tampa future picks in return. I don`t see Gorton do it though, because we have too many bottom 6 players at the moment.

Gorton should also consider move Namestnikov to open up a roster spot for a younger prospect, and maybe move Jimmy Vesey he had a career season so time to cash in on him since we have Kratsov now and Kakko in the draft.
If we need depth we can sign an UFA, but not elite level UFA to accellerate the rebuild, and that exclude Zucc - he has elite passing skills and not many to play with since Dallas is so top heavy 1st line. Now is @ZuccsFluffierFluffer happy, haha. :)
Anyway I need to eat lunch, until later guys and have a good day.
 
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eco's bones

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Another asset they could have moved. Who's now worthless. Or, at least, worth less.

Kadri is a very good player. This is his 5th NHL suspension though and he's not that old. His inability to control his temper is part of why the Maple Leafs are on the outside looking in. But they should get a very good return for him. He's a very good 2C on a lot of teams. I don't think the Leafs can stick with him any longer though--his lack of discipline has cost them too many times.
 
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SA16

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Marleau would accept a trade to a team that would buy him out so he could resign for close to league min with SJ or Toronto

Doesn’t make much sense for a team to do that since as a 35+ deal they would not gain any cap advantage and unlike the Datsyuk deal they would still have to pay him. So you’re asking a team to take on a dead 6.5M cap hit and pay him 4.2M or so over two years. Not many teams can even fit that sort of hit and many that could want want to pay him (Arizona). You’re also asking the league not to rule it circumvention if he goes back to Toronto (and I know they didn’t on Orpik but one wrong decision doesn’t mean they have to follow through with it forever since trade Marleau/re-sign Marner/re-sign Marleau for league min is the most obvious cap circumvention possible)
 
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GAGLine

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Doesn’t make much sense for a team to do that since as a 35+ deal they would not gain any cap advantage and unlike the Datsyuk deal they would still have to pay him. So you’re asking a team to take on a dead 6.5M cap hit and pay him 4.2M or so over two years. Not many teams can even fit that sort of hit and many that could want want to pay him (Arizona). You’re also asking the league not to rule it circumvention if he goes back to Toronto (and I know they didn’t on Orpik but one wrong decision doesn’t mean they have to follow through with it forever since trade Marleau/re-sign Marner/re-sign Marleau for league min is the most obvious cap circumvention possible)

Marleau has a 3 mil signing bonus, after which he makes 1.25 mil in base salary next year. I'm sure a cap floor team would be very happy to pay ~817k over two years for a 6.25 mil cap hit.
 
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ETTER DE

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Marleau has a 3 mil signing bonus, after which he makes 1.25 mil in base salary next year. I'm sure a cap floor team would be very happy to pay ~817k over two years for a 6.25 mil cap hit.

Screams Ottawa.
 

kovazub94

Enigmatic
Aug 5, 2010
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I mean, we've only tried rebuilding by spending money on UFAs for 80 years, so let's keep trying more of the same? Pre-2004 when we had a budget double that of the average NHL team, we still failed to buy our way out of misery. As Einstein said, "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different result. "

We won the Cup by drafting 7 guys who went on to become at least 3-time All Stars (Richter, Leetch, Zubov, Amonte, Weight, Kovalev) before going after vets like Messier. If we fail to grow our own bunch of All Stars first, Panarin or whoever will be remembered just like Phil Esposito, Gretzky, Fleury, Lindros, Bure, etc.

Aren’t you kinda contradicting yourself? Messier was brought in way before the Rangers knew exactly what they had in Zubov, Kovalev, Amonte and Weight. You actually are making a pretty compelling argument for bringing a vet right now to support the development of the current prospects, making sure they develop properly and simultaneously addressing a hole in the their prospect pool? If not Panarin, at least it’s compelling enough re. Trouba.
 
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SA16

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Marleau has a 3 mil signing bonus, after which he makes 1.25 mil in base salary next year. I'm sure a cap floor team would be very happy to pay ~817k over two years for a 6.25 mil cap hit.

Ok I got the structure wrong. Didn't have time to look it up this morning and assumed it was consistent. In that case it works fine for a team like that but if I were the league and he got traded/immediately bought out/re-signed I would just reject the deal even though they let it go through last year. I also think this is slightly different than Orpik who did not have a full NTC since you know he would only be accepting the trade knowing it's a sham and that he would immediately become a FA.
 

egelband

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Kadri is a very good player. This is his 5th NHL suspension though and he's not that old. His inability to control his temper is part of why the Maple Leafs are on the outside looking in. But they should get a very good return for him. He's a very good 2C on a lot of teams. I don't think the Leafs can't stick with him any longer though--his lack of discipline has cost them too many times.
He's a physically talented athlete but the inability to control his own emotions is a problem. You're right, someone may take a chance on him. But I don't think it's wise. And for sure the Leafs will be selling low.
 

egelband

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I will give Kadri one thing. While he is a head hunter and very dirty. He isn't premeditated like Tom Wilson. He doesn't hunt down guys and truck heads. His garbage is split-second bad reaction stuff. I'm splitting hairs, but...
 

eco's bones

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He's a physically talented athlete but the inability to control his own emotions is a problem. You're right, someone may take a chance on him. But I don't think it's wise. And for sure the Leafs will be selling low.

I would think there would be a number of teams interested. He's talented--gritty and competitive. If he could take it up a notch or two with his play he's not all that unlike Brad Marchand who has had some of the same control issues.
 

Ola

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I'm excited we have 4 in the top 50, and 5 total in the top 60.

10 Picks total draft.

Those are significant numbers with 2 oa being the cherry on top.

Yeah, its great for sure.

I think we will keep all picks too, but you never know. The thing is, I think the top 12-13 is really strong, and will be very hard to get into. But like sure, if someone like Turcotte, Zegras, Newhook or Dach -- that we really like -- is there for the taking, Gorton should bomb away, but looking at the teams in that range, say from 5 to 12 its LAK, Det, Buff, EDM, ANA, Van, Philly and Minny -- why should any of them give up a shot at getting one of the forwards that re bound to be available at in that 5-12 range?

OTOH, I don't think there is a big difference in like the 15-25 range. So I am not sure its worth it to move from say 20 to 16 or whatever. Colorado is otherwise a team that might be game to move down with their 2nd pick to get some more depth, their farm isn't that great and I think I recall seeing them getting some new faces into their armature department crew recently.
 

Ola

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On the kids are better than vets-front, Wayne Simmond's impact for Nashville can be summarized by him getting 1 goal in 19 games.

Why are the pro-tank people against getting vets again!?

If you want us to get a high pick in 20', you should be on the barricades screaming for Gorton to sign Simmonds and trade for Kovalchuk!! ;)
 
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Amazing Kreiderman

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On the kids are better than vets-front, Wayne Simmond's impact for Nashville can be summarized by him getting 1 goal in 19 games.

Why are the pro-tank people against getting vets again? ;)

Deadline acquisitions are always a gamble. You have a player stepping into a team without any practice on that team, no chemistry etc. In rare cases, it works out but do we all remember how St Louis started with us? It's just the way it is. Rentals are hit or miss and not always because of the player.

Stone and Duchene were great deadline deals for the teams acquiring them
 

DutchShamrock

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So Marleau is going to agree to get traded from a cup contender, at 40, to go to a lottery team? To the get bought out and make a fraction of the money he negotiated? With cap circumvention promises to go back to Toronto? Or get traded to a contender on a hypothetical trade, just after a cup contender gave up assets to not have his services? Are magic beans a part of this deal too?

And you can bet if Bettman told the public the Orpik deal was borderline and future deals like that will be scrutinized, he sure as hell laid down the law to GMs in private and threatened to throw the book.
 
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Edge

Kris King's Ghost
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Kadri is a very good player. This is his 5th NHL suspension though and he's not that old. His inability to control his temper is part of why the Maple Leafs are on the outside looking in. But they should get a very good return for him. He's a very good 2C on a lot of teams. I don't think the Leafs can stick with him any longer though--his lack of discipline has cost them too many times.

I feel like the second line pretty much spotlights my problem with the way the NHL handles discipline and safety.

We're referencing a player's fifth suspension.

Fifth.

Why does any player get to his fourth, fifth, or sixth suspension? That's insane to me.

Look, things happen from time to time. But when you start having to use your two hands to count the number of suspensions a player has received, something is clearly wrong and that player is a repeat offender.

Why does it take making the national news for an embarrassing act?

Why does it take a serious injury in order for the NHL to come down on a guy?

Hell, put a damn multiplier into the equation if you want. Take the number of games the player would've been suspended, and multiply that by the number of times they've already been suspended. So if Tom Wilson earns his next 20 game suspension, multiple that by a factor of 5. See you in a year buddy.

Mr. Marchand, come on in. Your actions have earned you a 5 game suspension. But seeing how this is your 7th suspension, that gets multiplied to 35. See you in six months buddy. Please don't lick anyone on the way out.
 
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DanielBrassard

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It's not wrong.

The Leafs accomplished nothing with their Tavares signing. They lost in 7 games last season to Boston. They lost in 7 games this year to Boston. The Bruins aren't some great team either. They have 4 forwards. 5 forwards if DeBrusk feels like playing. The Bruins have their own issues.

The stupid Leafs wanted to accelerate their rebuild. Lou gave Marleau a 3 year 35 plus contract. They still have another year on the contract. Marleau doesn't want to go anywhere. The player's best days were behind him years ago.

Gorton likes to say he has looked at other teams have rebuilt. The Leafs are one of those teams. He now needs to look at how they made free agent signings and didn't make their team better.

Look no further than those two contracts. They took the Caps to 6 games in 2016 and decided to accelerate the rebuild. They have not won a playoff series in the last two years.

Tavares has a 2-3 year window. One year is already gone. The Leafs will have $40M tied up in 4 forwards after Marner gets paid this season. Add Rielly and Andersen. $50M in 6 players. Add $6.25M for Marleau. The cap will be $83M. The Leafs aren't winning the Cup with this group.

Gorton needs to look at the Leafs as a reason to not accelerate the rebuild through free agency. The Leafs are now in cap purgatory. They don't have enough money to fill out their roster. Top heavy. Not much depth. Their blue line is bad.

Good luck to Brendan Shanahan and Kyle Dubas.
Agreed, we shouldn't follow the Leafs plan of signing 37-year old declining forwards to 3-year 19.5M deals and also re-signing a really bad defenseman after 1 bad season in the NHL to a 7-year 32M deal. I guess that's fine though since he was an RFA under 30.
 

Ola

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Came over really late so they only got 1 year of ELC and then did the HF thing of "lets extend this guy for a million years at 4M per year THINK OF THE SAVINGS when he keeps progressing haHAA" like I saw suggested with ADA after 45 good games.

Sometimes that doesn't work out.

Still, they would probably have no problems moving him despite him only scoring 12 pts or whatever. RD with a little bit of size that can make a first pass, always someone that would take him at 4m per...
 

Ola

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Deadline acquisitions are always a gamble. You have a player stepping into a team without any practice on that team, no chemistry etc. In rare cases, it works out but do we all remember how St Louis started with us? It's just the way it is. Rentals are hit or miss and not always because of the player.

Stone and Duchene were great deadline deals for the teams acquiring them

Yeah for sure, but in addition, I think guys like Simmonds are really specialized and that many don't realize that. He is not a good hockeyplayer 5 on 5, compared to the average guy we are seeing out there that more often than not is really complete.

Its like Eric Staal. He is painful in many areas when you watch Minny, but can still put up pts in the right situation. If Pittsburgh or a team like that gets Simmonds and put him on the PP, all of a sudden he is scoring 30 again. Its not that they suck all over the board, its that they aren't good when they don't get to play to their strengths. And that is the case with so many older vets. Duchene and Stone are good players.
 
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Irishguy42

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How the Rangers can avoid being like the Leafs: Not by avoiding spending $11M on an elite UFA, but avoiding spending $11M+ combined on bad deals like Marleau/Zaitsev/etc.

You can still sign Panarin and just be fine cap-wise in the future. It's the middling player contracts that cause the real damage.

Panarin is an elite UFA worth a big contract. Tavares was an elite UFA worth the money he signed for. Marleau is not a UFA worth $6M+

And it's not like if we miss out on Panarin we should go for Skinner or other big UFAs. Panarin is elite. The others are not. It's either get Panarin or get no-one. Most of us who want Panarin aren't gung-ho on just signing whatever the big UFA is every time.
 

TheBloodyNine

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Marleau has a 3 mil signing bonus, after which he makes 1.25 mil in base salary next year. I'm sure a cap floor team would be very happy to pay ~817k over two years for a 6.25 mil cap hit.
Is Marleau waiving his No trade to go from the Leafs to a cap floor team?
 
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Cag29

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Jul 18, 2018
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stay away from panarin

we arent ready to maximize his value and by the time we will be, he will be near 30

stay away, that window isnt open yet.

with this defense we have, we would need 5 panarins.

fix the defense first
I’m on the fence regarding Panarin.
He would be the only UFA I’d go after as far as a 7 year signing.
Messier was 31 when he was traded to NY.
I know it’s Messier but players can play into their early 30’s.
 

GAGLine

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How the Rangers can avoid being like the Leafs: Not by avoiding spending $11M on an elite UFA, but avoiding spending $11M+ combined on bad deals like Marleau/Zaitsev/etc.

You can still sign Panarin and just be fine cap-wise in the future. It's the middling player contracts that cause the real damage.

Panarin is an elite UFA worth a big contract. Tavares was an elite UFA worth the money he signed for. Marleau is not a UFA worth $6M+

And it's not like if we miss out on Panarin we should go for Skinner or other big UFAs. Panarin is elite. The others are not. It's either get Panarin or get no-one. Most of us who want Panarin aren't gung-ho on just signing whatever the big UFA is every time.

The Zaitsev contract was obviously a mistake, and it was a mistake to give Marleau 3 years instead of 2. However, those contracts were already on the books when they gave Tavares 11 mil. They didn't need more scoring, at least not enough to spend 11 mil per year on it. They knew they were going to have to pay Matthews, Marner and Nylander. IMO, they would have been better off shoring up the defense and adding a little more grit, and spending less total cap to do it.

That's not meant to be an argument against Panarin, though. We don't have 3 players looking to get huge contracts within the next year. Fitting Panarin under the cap wouldn't be an issue for us. The contract might be a problem in 4 or 5 years, but probably not before then. Will Panarin still be this good when we are ready to contend? Yes, some players continue to be elite into their 30s. Maybe Panarin is one of those players. What I can say for certain is that we will waste at least 2 years of his prime if we sign him.

People like to say that players like this don't come along often, but that isn't really true. There are always opportunities. The question is whether or not the Rangers will be able to take advantage of them. There are a number of teams facing a cap crunch this summer. We might be surprised by some of the names that become available. Two years ago, no one knew that Panarin would be a UFA in 2019. Seguin, Hall and Seth Jones were all traded before they reached UFA age. Tavares became a UFA. Stamkos flirted with being a UFA (he was able to talk to teams during the pre-July 1st window) before re-signing in Tampa. Hell, this is actually the 3rd time Panarin has been available in the last 4 years. First as an undrafted free agent, second as a trade from Chicago, and now third as a UFA.

It's easy to look at our team now and say we could use a guy like Panarin. But will he be a good fit for the team 2 or 3 years from now? We don't know how our center situation is going to shake out. Zib is locked in as the 1C for now, unless someone passes him, but other than Chytil, who projects to be a top 6 center? Kravtsov and Kakko have both played some center in their careers, but is either a center at the NHL level? Maybe one of Andersson or Howden can eventually center the 2nd line, but neither is likely to be more than 50 point, two-way players. It might be that our wings will be set between Kakko, Kravtsov, Buchnevich and Chytil, and what we really need is a 2C. Paying Panarin 11 mil now would make it a lot harder to fill that center spot later, if it comes to it. Or maybe it's not the center situation, but rather the defense, which needs that money.

There are a lot of unknowns right now. Personally, I would rather be patient, see how our prospects develop and see what other opportunities arise. I think Panarin will sign in Florida anyway, so it's probably a moot point.
 
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