Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XX

[Tawnos]

It’s entirely unpredictable when and/or how an individual will decline.

 

[Mac n Gs]

It’s entirely unpredictable when and/or how an individual will decline.

This is giving me flashbacks to the MSL decline discussions.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

It’s entirely unpredictable when and/or how an individual will decline.

That’s true.

But the track record is much better for guys who are the elite of the elite. Those guys usually stay elite for a while.

Someone brought up Richards, he was not a player of that level.

MSL took until age 39 to fall off.

Even with all that in mind, I’d stay away from big ticket ufas.

 

[BBKers]

No to Karlsson
On the fence with Panarin. I think he want$ Too much for our better good though...

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

It used to be sort of fun to speculate on the availability of every player in the league because there was always some chance the Rangers would pull the trigger.

Times have changed - and people bringing up Erik Karlsson, for instance, are either really bored and/or in a state of denial regarding what the Rangers are currently doing.

 

[Thirty One]

Times have changed - and people bringing up Erik Karlsson, for instance, are either really bored and/or in a state of denial regarding what the Rangers are currently doing.

Does the same apply to Panarin?

 

[Lion Hound]

No to Karlsson
On the fence with Panarin. I think he want$ Too much for our better good though...

Feel the same way here. Im sure the next Contract will be 10 mil or so correct? If so...I have to pass on Karlsson. The Rangers rebuild, and development of its youngsters just don't really jive.

Plus...If Karlsson. And if say 10 mil per. Look at the insanity the club will be spending on its defense.

Karlsson $10,000,000
Shattenkirk $6,650,000
Staal $5,700,000
Skjei $5,250,000
Smith $4,350,000

Oh yeah, don't forget Girardi's $3,611,111

$35,561,111.00

 

[NYR Viper]

Does the same apply to Panarin?

Panarin, at the very least, is two years younger so, IMO, there could be a discussion there. Signing a 28 or 29 year old player for 7 years seems like a bad choice at this moment. It’s also why I believe the discussion has been had in regards to Kreider. It’s not a personal thing, I’m sure everyone would love to keep him around, it’s that the Rangers would be signing a 28 year old to a long term deal where the team may be competing by the time he’s 30-31. Is that going to be an effective use of funds from 31-35?

 

[Kupo]

That’s true.

But the track record is much better for guys who are the elite of the elite. Those guys usually stay elite for a while.

Someone brought up Richards, he was not a player of that level.

MSL took until age 39 to fall off.

Even with all that in mind, I’d stay away from big ticket ufas.

Beaver had 91 points in 80 games in 2009-2010. 7th in the league in scoring.

He followed that up with 77 points in 72 games which was good for 10th in the league.

Top-10 in scoring back to back seasons at a PPG+ Clip is pretty elite production.

Following year he signs with us and boom, unleashes 66p in 82 games. Welcome to NY! 9 year 60 contract (or something like that).

 

[Ola]

Top 4 pick would ensure your shot at one of Podkolzin/Cozens/Bryam/Zegras/Dach

They are all very good.

Much better than Dylan Strome?

I am definitely very comfortable with Jack Hughes. Kakko should become really good but I do like Hughes a lot more than him.

But let me put it like this, I don’t have good enough track of the rest but the so called main stream view and strong numbers in the CHL doesn’t comfort me much after following last year’s draft very closely.

Even if there are no guarantees, we should definitely find a good player around 3-5. No excuses. But I would hardly bank on us finding a franchise forward in that range. Kakko would be huge but the only one that seals the deal and calls for an accelerated rebuild from my POV is Hughes.

 

[Kupo]

Does the same apply to Panarin?

Panarin is younger. He also doesn’t have 10 seasons of hockey playing 25+ a night with 669 regular season and 48 playoff games on his resume. (282 + 17).

EK has had major surgery on his ankle. And a ton of blocked shots.

Apples and Oranges here. I don’t think we should pursuit either player.

 

[Ola]

Beaver had 91 points in 80 games in 2009-2010. 7th in the league in scoring.

He followed that up with 77 points in 72 games which was good for 10th in the league.

Top-10 in scoring back to back seasons at a PPG+ Clip is pretty elite production.

Following year he signs with us and boom, unleashes 66p in 82 games. Welcome to NY! 9 year 60 contract (or something like that).

But Beaver was not elite. Stats are stats and the real world is the real world.

I remember really how I described him before we got him. Is the archive still around? Basically: Skating is an issue. He isn’t really a good playmaker, don’t bank on him meshing with Gabby. He has a very good shot and is great at getting the puck into high danger areas where he has two really strong wingers in (a young) Louie Eriksson and Jamie Benn roaring back and forth to the net opening things up. I said that it would be an issue that we didn’t have a top RHS PPQB since he always had that in Dallas, I also said that you shouldn’t underestimate the impact Riberio as a top playmaker down low on the PP had on Beaver.

 

[Machinehead]

But Beaver was not elite. Stats are stats and the real world is the real world.

I remember really how I described him before we got him. Is the archive still around? Basically: Skating is an issue. He isn’t really a good playmaker, don’t bank on him meshing with Gabby. He has a very good shot and is great at getting the puck into high danger areas where he has two really strong wingers in (a young) Louie Eriksson and Jamie Benn roaring back and forth to the net opening things up. I said that it would be an issue that we didn’t have a top RHS PPQB since he always had that in Dallas, I also said that you shouldn’t underestimate the impact Riberio as a top playmaker down low on the PP had on Beaver.

I don't know what the "real world" refers to, but in this real world, Brad Richards was absolutely elite.

Probably not with the Rangers, but in his 20's there was no debate.

 

[NYR Viper]

The Rangers need a core group of very good players. Most of them need to be home grown and once you have those guys, you need to continue having young, cheap, good young players to continue to succeed. They need to stick to the plan the get more draft picks. They’re pieces to be used in the future.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Much better than Dylan Strome?

I am definitely very comfortable with Jack Hughes. Kakko should become really good but I do like Hughes a lot more than him.

But let me put it like this, I don’t have good enough track of the rest but the so called main stream view and strong numbers in the CHL doesn’t comfort me much after following last year’s draft very closely.

Even if there are no guarantees, we should definitely find a good player around 3-5. No excuses. But I would hardly bank on us finding a franchise forward in that range. Kakko would be huge but the only one that seals the deal and calls for an accelerated rebuild from my POV is Hughes.

I'd say so for all of those guys except Dach.

 

[I Eat Crow]

It used to be sort of fun to speculate on the availability of every player in the league because there was always some chance the Rangers would pull the trigger.

Times have changed - and people bringing up Erik Karlsson, for instance, are either really bored and/or in a state of denial regarding what the Rangers are currently doing.

While you and others may have this opinion, I disagree.

Take a look at who has won the Cup recently. Teams with elite talent. Henrik Lundqvist has held this team back from truly bottoming out and acquiring top end elite talent in the past couple of years. Though Kravtsov has the potential, I don't fancy anyone currently in the prospect pool to have top line or top pairing upside.

Karlsson is still a top 20 player in the game. He's a smart enough player that he will still be effective even when he loses a step. With his injury riddled season last year and slow start this year, I think people really forget how good he is.

When a player of Karlsson's ilk becomes available, its foolish to not at least look into it. You can't rebuild forever. Karlsson will still be an excellent player when the Rangers are ready to contend again. The Rangers will really have to luck out in the lottery to draft top 3 this year and next.

@Lion Hound brings up a good point in stating the amount of money tied up in the defense is astronomical. Karlsson may become cost prohibitive because of this, but I would imagine that one of Staal, Smith, or Shattenkirk are off the books coming into next season regardless of what happens with Karlsson.

I understand Karlsson may be a tough sell, but the guy is a franchise talent.

 

[NYR Viper]

While you and others may have this opinion, I disagree.

Take a look at who has won the Cup recently. Teams with elite talent. Henrik Lundqvist has held this team back from truly bottoming out and acquiring top end elite talent in the past couple of years. Though Kravtsov has the potential, I don't fancy anyone currently in the prospect pool to have top line or top pairing upside.

Karlsson is still a top 20 player in the game. He's a smart enough player that he will still be effective even when he loses a step. With his injury riddled season last year and slow start this year, I think people really forget how good he is.

When a player of Karlsson's ilk becomes available, its foolish to not at least look into it. You can't rebuild forever. Karlsson will still be an excellent player when the Rangers are ready to contend again. The Rangers will really have to luck out in the lottery to draft top 3 this year and next.

@Lion Hound brings up a good point in stating the amount of money tied up in the defense is astronomical. Karlsson may become cost prohibitive because of this, but I would imagine that one of Staal, Smith, or Shattenkirk are off the books coming into next season regardless of what happens with Karlsson.

I understand Karlsson may be a tough sell, but the guy is a franchise talent.

No argument from me in regards to Karlsson. He’s a very good player and will remain so for more than a few years. I just don’t see this team at a position to make that type of move right now.

 

[Kupo]

But Beaver was not elite. Stats are stats and the real world is the real world.

Beaver did produce in the real world. He was a legitimate #1 Center before he signed here. He outscored guys like: Kane, Marleau, Daniel Sedin, Heatley, Kovalchuck, and so on in 2010. I don’t think you remember how good Beaver was. Honestly.

Ola you’re not going to convince me that EK would be a wise signing for our team. I don’t care what approach you take.

This team has no business investing the type of contract EK is going to command for a number of reasons.

 

[Ola]

I don't know what the "real world" refers to, but in this real world, Brad Richards was absolutely elite.

Probably not with the Rangers, but in his 20's there was no debate.

Ok, ‘elite’ was a poor choice of words.

What I meant was that Beaver never remotely has been as talented as the most talented players in this league. He has never been a top skater, not even remotely. And he didn’t lose a step over night when going from Dallas putting up those numbers and coming to NY were everyone could see how he skated. I remember being in so many debates about his skating before we got him, many claimed that he was a top 5-10 skater. You know, in the ‘real world’ he wasn’t. That is what I meant. Stats might have indicated it, maybe he was fast as hell on playstation, but in the ‘real world’ he was a guy who got 200% out of his talent, super clutch, really good de facto in that PPQB role he had, always had elite RHS point mans next to him (Boyle in Tampa and Zubov in Dallas) and great LHS playmakers down low to work with (Lecavalier in Tampa and Riberio in Dallas) and so forth. Playing with Jamie Benn in Dallas, MSL in Tampa.

I can’t claim that an argument that he wasn’t elite is water proof. I have no clue what elite means. But boy was there always a huge gap different between a Sid Crosby, Malkin and co on one side and a Brad Richards on the other? Grand Canyon sized...

And to be honest Machinehead, I do think many just saw his stats and projected a ton of skill onto him that he never ever had. Take it for what it is, it’s just my opinion. But I wrote it here before we got him and he looked exactly like I said he would look when we got him. I don’t just cruise around claiming that top scorers aren’t that talented, I would never have breathed something like that about a MSL for example who was super skilled. Beaver was never up there in terms of raw skill.

 

[Kupo]

Ok, ‘elite’ was a poor choice of words.

What I meant was that Beaver never remotely has been as talented as the most talented players in this league. He has never been a top skater, not even remotely. And he didn’t lose a step over night when going from Dallas putting up those numbers and coming to NY were everyone could see how he skated. I remember being in so many debates about his skating before we got him, many claimed that he was a top 5-10 skater. You know, in the ‘real world’ he wasn’t. That is what I meant. Stats might have indicated it, maybe he was fast as hell on playstation, but in the ‘real world’ he was a guy who got 200% out of his talent, super clutch, really good de facto in that PPQB role he had, always had elite RHS point mans next to him (Boyle in Tampa and Zubov in Dallas) and great LHS playmakers down low to work with (Lecavalier in Tampa and Riberio in Dallas) and so forth. Playing with Jamie Benn in Dallas, MSL in Tampa.

I can’t claim that an argument that he wasn’t elite is water proof. I have no clue what elite means. But boy was there always a huge gap different between a Sid Crosby, Malkin and co on one side and a Brad Richards on the other? Grand Canyon sized...

Crosby and Malkin are generational talents. They’re are a notch above elite. Nobody should be comparing Richards to them.

And beaver was never considered, by anyone I know to be a top-5 skater. He was a very smart player with good vision and a good shot.

 

[Machinehead]

Ok, ‘elite’ was a poor choice of words.

What I meant was that Beaver never remotely has been as talented as the most talented players in this league. He has never been a top skater, not even remotely. And he didn’t lose a step over night when going from Dallas putting up those numbers and coming to NY were everyone could see how he skated. I remember being in so many debates about his skating before we got him, many claimed that he was a top 5-10 skater. You know, in the ‘real world’ he wasn’t. That is what I meant. Stats might have indicated it, maybe he was fast as hell on playstation, but in the ‘real world’ he was a guy who got 200% out of his talent, super clutch, really good de facto in that PPQB role he had, always had elite RHS point mans next to him (Boyle in Tampa and Zubov in Dallas) and great LHS playmakers down low to work with (Lecavalier in Tampa and Riberio in Dallas) and so forth. Playing with Jamie Benn in Dallas, MSL in Tampa.

I can’t claim that an argument that he wasn’t elite is water proof. I have no clue what elite means. But boy was there always a huge gap different between a Sid Crosby, Malkin and co on one side and a Brad Richards on the other? Grand Canyon sized...

Ok, so he wasn't a thrilling player, but he still did what he did.

 

[Ola]

Ok, so he wasn't a thrilling player, but he still did what he did.

Yep, and I didn’t mean to take away anything from him in that regard.

It was also a really really tough league to perform in — and no matter what nobody can claim that BR didn’t perform.

My point was just that there where red flags about how his game would translate to a new team and how well he would age.

 

[Ghost of jas]

I don't know what the "real world" refers to, but in this real world, Brad Richards was absolutely elite.

Probably not with the Rangers, but in his 20's there was no debate.

And he produced in his first year with the Rangers. I’m pretty sure he tied his career high in goals. I think both him and Gaborik were at a ppg over the 20 games they played together with Hagelin to finish the 2011-12 season. Tortorella brain-farted a lineup that separated the two of them most of that season.

 

[NYR Viper]

Here’s a question for you all, lets make a couple of assumptions:

Chris Kreider will want 7 years x $7m per season. He is a UFA at the end of next year.

Mark Stone, when he hits UFA, is interested in coming to NY. He asks for $8.5m x 7 years.

Artemi Panarin, when he hits UFA, is interested in coming to NY. He asks for $9m x 7 years.

Would anyone consider trading Kreider to recoup assets and signing either of those guys at those contracts?

Let’s assume those demands I listed are slightly low for Stone and Panarin. At what contract would you take either to allow for the trade of Kreider?

 

[Edge]

Lost in all this is the reality that the Rangers are not going to be an attractive option to a superstar free agent at the moment.

They will be if/when they have a young core emerge and look like a team getting ready to climb, but don't doubt for a minute that in the immediate future players aren't having the same reaction to this squad that we are.