Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XVI

[offdacrossbar]

rebuilds happen but they arent all the exact same type of teardown hit rock bottom rebuilds. there can be a retool or a system change or a culture change or whatever you want to call it. its a fluid thing.

i like what Quinn is doing tbh. hes changing things and the guys seem to be responding.

when your YOUNG players are developing and producing thats what i need to see.

when your EFFORT and ACCOUNTABILITY shows through, thats what i need to see.

the results at this point are secondary. the direction seems to be correct. the results, eventually will come.

i do agree this team needs a legit 1C and atleast one true first pair dman.

thats JG's job. he needs to go find one or draft one. this year there an opportunity to make a trade to address a need. hayes for a roster player, perhaps a young dman who can fill that top pair role.

zuc for a 1st and a prospect. another kick at the can to find another impact forward.

 

[DutchShamrock]

If we want to use the flyers or hextall as a cautionary tale, we should be honest and tell the whole story. He had to address serious cap issues when he took over. Lecavelier, Umberger, Pronger. Inherited MacDonald, Streit, Luke Schenn. Cap hell.

Half his tenure was about stripping out the bad. He inherited a mess from Holmgren, who traded Bobrovsky for nothing. Who fired Hextall? Holmgren. And he is going to cite the goaltending issue?

If the flyers return to relevance, it will be because of Provorov, Konecny, Vorobyev, Hart, etc. Hextall's draft.

I get the arguments, that he should have totally tanked or he should have competed. But look, he fixed the boss's mess created by knee jerk moves and cap issues. 4 years he had and he is fired for not fixing it enough. How can we expect him to do a full rebuild? Would have been fired earlier. Overpaying for fixes would have dug a deeper hole.

Sirius XM guys nailed it yesterday, get on the phone today and fleece Holmgren because he will be trading for quick fixes.

 

[NYR Viper]

There are many examples of very good players being found outside of the top-5 of the draft. I'm not sure I agree with needing to bottom-out to find them. In saying that, what I do agree with is smart asset management. Gathering more 1st and 2nd rounders will increase your chances of finding very good players. It allows the scouts and management to be slightly more aggressive when they have a player they really like (see Miller last year). It also allows them to accumulate pieces that other teams will most likely covet opening up trade possibilities for when the right players become available AND allows for a continuous pipeline of good, young, cost controlled assets.

 

[Mac n Gs]

Again, freaking out about this team being competitive is silly at this point. It’s exactly what you want to see the young kids doing during a rebuild year. If Chytil and Howden looked like ass this season, this process gets knocked back and we get stuck miring in awful hockey for even more years. The race in our division is so narrow, and one bad swing has us right back at the bottom.

Gorton is going to trade the expected players on expiring contracts. He blew his shot with Hayes this summer where he could’ve locked him into a 6 year deal below $6M. If he doesn’t resign Hayes, he at least gives himself a ton of cap flexibility moving forward. The one thing he absolutely can’t do is buy at the deadline. The underlying play of this team won’t lead to playoff success this season. It bodes well for the future with the younger guys, but it’s not happening this year.

 

[RGY]

I care to refute that the only way to get either is the #1 pick, putting your entire strategy into the hands of a lottery and that spending this season crying about the team's play because it's not bad enough is stupid.

Thank you so much. Couldn’t have said it better myself.

BRB, I highly respect you but I also highly disagree with the approach. We are the Rangers and with our great luck, we will tank on purpose for the #1 pick and any number of things will happen such as getting bounced due to the lottery, the pick being a bust, the pick being injured a majority of his career, etc. There is no sure thing and to ECB’ point, why spend the season bitching and moaning about the team having success...and success largely due to their YOUTH. They can get a top flight center or defender even if they dont pick #1 or #2. Voracek was drafted #7. Giroux drafted #22. Kopitar #11. Bergeron 45th. Krejci 63rd. Part of it is how good your scouting department and management structure is. I believe we have the right guys. Its also ok for these kids to continue to compete and experience winning.

 

[DutchShamrock]

There are many examples of very good players being found outside of the top-5 of the draft. I'm not sure I agree with needing to bottom-out to find them. In saying that, what I do agree with is smart asset management. Gathering more 1st and 2nd rounders will increase your chances of finding very good players. It allows the scouts and management to be slightly more aggressive when they have a player they really like (see Miller last year). It also allows them to accumulate pieces that other teams will most likely covet opening up trade possibilities for when the right players become available AND allows for a continuous pipeline of good, young, cost controlled assets.

Bang on. It's a lottery in every sense, so buying more tickets is more important than putting all your assets towards one or two slightly better tickets.

I referenced this a few weeks back about the kings. 3 top 5 picks in a row. Hickey, Doughty, B. Schenn. So does the simple threshold of 3 top 5s equal two cups? Because that Hickey pick should be devastating. Or is it a fallacy from the start?

The kings won 2 cups because they loaded up on draft picks and the sheer number of picks stocked their team. Kopitar #11, Quick in the 3rd, Simmonds #61, Martinez in the 4th, Toffoli #47. Timely trades like Carter. Pushed their chips in for Richard's at the right time. They lifted 2 cups with exactly 1 top 5 picking playing a meaningful role. But it all goes back to them reloading the system with a volume of picks.

 

[Roo Returns]

Well if you can fill that role with a cheap in-house option why not?

I get that but the playoffs are an entirely different beast and Winnipeg who isn't as strong as they were last year and won't seed as high are in year 2 of their window. They're going to maybe get 1-2 more shots before they have to make drastic changes due to the cap.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Gorton is going to trade the expected players on expiring contracts. He blew his shot with Hayes this summer where he could’ve locked him into a 6 year deal below $6M. If he doesn’t resign Hayes, he at least gives himself a ton of cap flexibility moving forward. The one thing he absolutely can’t do is buy at the deadline. The underlying play of this team won’t lead to playoff success this season. It bodes well for the future with the younger guys, but it’s not happening this year.

I don’t know about this...

I dont know that the FO can resist the temptation. Remember that this is the same group that held onto Yandle for a futile run and then balked at tearing it down that summer.

Yes they’ve taken that step since then and everything JG has said he would do he has done, but I can easily see them doing stupid things if they’re somehow still in it come February.

 

[Roo Returns]

You can find players outside of the top five. Rangers won a Cup in large part because one of their elite players was taken in the 5th round (Zubov). And yes I know that was in the days of pre internet scouting and Smith was able to take a risk with an extra pick he got for letting Guy LaFleur walk.

Rangers might get lucky and have two more top six players if Kravstov reaches his full potential and they get Panarin via UFA. And maybe just maybe one more between one of Baron/Virta/Pajuniemi.

At some point they're going to make a big trade to acquire a veteran to put them over the top when they're ready. It's the way of the cap world. They did that 3x this decade with Nash/MSL/Yandle, four if you count E. Staal.

Gorton is in a good position with so many of these guys on ELCs and when they come into their prime, the big four contracts will be expiring. Some team is going to run into a cap issue and that is where all these assets come into play.

 

[offdacrossbar]

im starting to feel the momentum and concept behind resigning kevin hayes unless there is a bonafide impact player returning. if we can make a hockey trade and bring back that top dman, hes gone.

otherwise, i dunno.

i agree that more midling 1st rounders isnt what we need per say. those players wont be ready now and with henrik still our best player, im thinking hayes for an impact defenseman makes more sense than a mid 1st.

hayes either brings back a stud ready to go cost controlled player or we resign him as a core piece and build around the middle of our ice which tbh will be good enough to win with if we add some more pieces.

however comma...

we would need to clear cap for that to even be entertained. resigning 13 to a 6/6 deal means we need to clear some cap.

if we want to add panarin to this roster, not sure how we add both 13 and bread man.

marc staal. brendan smith. shatty. certainly zuc. all gone.

 

[Mac n Gs]

I don’t know about this...

I dont know that the FO can resist the temptation. Remember that this is the same group that held onto Yandle for a futile run and then balked at tearing it down that summer.

Yes they’ve taken that step since then and everything JG has said he would do he has done, but I can easily see them doing stupid things if they’re somehow still in it come February.

What? Gorton tried trading for the 4th overall that offseason. That screams getting ready to tear it down to me.

 

[Riche16]

I think it’s a bit ridiculous to chastise RB or BRB when what they and others are proposing is doing something differently than this franchise has in the past. The thought process where they want a shot at a number 1 pick isn’t flawed. Of course it’s not guaranteed... but it’s also something we have never had.

We have one cup in 78 years.

Doing something different is probably a good idea at this point.

Can great players be found outside the top-3 of the draft? Of course they can. But if you’re picking 1-3 isn’t a bit more of a guarantee?

The kids and Quinn may not let that happen but wanting to see it isn’t a ridiculous concept

 

[Machinehead]

I am checking in after a Rangers win. Just tell that Machinehead that I was here. I know he is concerned about my frequency of posts after a Rangers win.

Hextall got fired yesterday.



Hextall tried to walk the rebuild and competitive tightrope. He was a little too conservative. He never made any trades. The Flyers were mediocre. Their goaltending is atrocious. Good forwards. He inherited most of those forwards. So so D. Hextall drafted so many D but those players need time to develop. They made the playoffs a few times.

The world is black and white.

Either bottom out or go for it. Pick a direction.

Trying to serve two masters only leads to mediocrity.

The Rangers are doing the same thing. They want to rebuild but they want to be competitive. You never hear the word "championship". Brooks writes column after column about "an accelerated remodel" featuring Hayes and Zibanejad but you never hear the anything about winning a championship.

It's about winning a championship.

Stanley Cup

Love seeing

Panarin-Elite center

Where are the Rangers getting the elite center from? Those players are found at the top of the draft.

How are the Rangers improving their D? They need to find a #1 D who can play in all situations. Where are they getting him from? They are found at the top of the draft too.

Buffalo has both of the boxes checked off with Eichel and Dahlin.

The Rangers don't have an elite center and #1 D in their system.

Let's be relevant. Sounds like a great plan.

That's not the plan. Did you read the letter?

This team has done everything in its power to not be competitive this year. Do you want them to shoot themselves?

No coach, much less a player, is going to deliberately not perform for draft picks they may not be be around for.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Thank you so much. Couldn’t have said it better myself.

BRB, I highly respect you but I also highly disagree with the approach. We are the Rangers and with our great luck, we will tank on purpose for the #1 pick and any number of things will happen such as getting bounced due to the lottery, the pick being a bust, the pick being injured a majority of his career, etc. There is no sure thing and to ECB’ point, why spend the season *****ing and moaning about the team having success...and success largely due to their YOUTH. They can get a top flight center or defender even if they dont pick #1 or #2. Voracek was drafted #7. Giroux drafted #22. Kopitar #11. Bergeron 45th. Krejci 63rd. Part of it is how good your scouting department and management structure is. I believe we have the right guys. Its also ok for these kids to continue to compete and experience winning.

Very well. I smell a redux of the previous 10 years coming where the organization builds up a solid foundation, trades away many of those players in search of the game breaking talents they have yet to develop, and coming up short of a championship.

And this time they'll do it without the Hall of Fame goaltender.

 

[offdacrossbar]

we will never be in the conversation for 1OA with henrik.

this team is poised right now to make the playoffs. its after us thanksgiving and we are in the playoffs today.

we are back to a goal diff of -1

we are 6-3-1 last 10

we are 10-4 at home which is close to tops in the league.

weve been without buchnevich one of our top 6 forwards.

too much negativity here. this team is NOT THAT BAD.

 

[NYR Viper]

Very well. I smell a redux of the previous 10 years coming where the organization builds up a solid foundation, trades away many of those players in search of the game breaking talents they have yet to develop, and coming up short of a championship.

And this time they'll do it without the Hall of Fame goaltender.

Understand this fear, but the Rangers NEVER had this many 1st round picks or back-to-back top-10 pick (let alone whatever happens this year). The last Rangers core was developed off of later 1st rounders and late round steals.

 

[Ghost of jas]

Understand this fear, but the Rangers NEVER had this many 1st round picks or back-to-back top-10 pick (let alone whatever happens this year). The last Rangers core was developed off of later 1st rounders and late round steals.

Nor did it include players with the upside of Chytil, Kravtsov or Miller.

 

[Graves94]

Nor did it include players with upside of Chytil, Kravtsov or Miller.

Agreed, and having these top end prospects and multiple first/second rounders, can allow you to trade some of them for a potential 1C/1D.

 

[Off Sides]

Understand this fear, but the Rangers NEVER had this many 1st round picks or back-to-back top-10 pick (let alone whatever happens this year). The last Rangers core was developed off of later 1st rounders and late round steals.

If those late round steals and later firsts equates to the same caliber of players which the Rangers are drafting earlier in these drafts it's not going to matter which draft slot they were taken in.

Which is basically my concern, I like Chytil, Lias, Howden and all the kids but I'm not so sure they are going to be all that much better than say Miller, Skjei, Kreider, etc or the group that proceeded them, Dubinsky, Anisimov, Del Zotto etc.

I think if they had nearly a whole team of that caliber of player perhaps depth could be something that allows them to compete even with a lesser top end core but if they are going to change gears here with only what they have drafted and are limiting what they are going to add in futures this next draft to remain more competitive now, I'm not so sure that depth will accumulate to make much of a difference.

 

[Vitto79]

So is Hayes trade value as high as it can be ?
Still think w Zib, Howden , Andersson they need to trade him . Plus Chytil is on the wing but can play C

Just get a cheap vet or go w a lesser prospect at 4th line C

So late 1st plus solid can play now prospect ?

 

[Ghost of jas]

If those late round steals and later firsts equates to the same caliber of players which the Rangers are drafting earlier in these drafts it's not going to matter which draft slot they were taken in.

Which is basically my concern, I like Chytil, Lias, Howden and all the kids but I'm not so sure they are going to be all that much better than say Miller, Skjei, Kreider, etc or the group that proceeded them, Dubinsky, Anisimov, Del Zotto etc.

I think if they had nearly a whole team of that caliber of player perhaps depth could be something that allows them to compete even with a lesser top end core but if they are going to change gears here with only what they have drafted and are limiting what they are going to add in futures this next draft to remain more competitive now, I'm not so sure that depth will accumulate to make much of a difference.

Chytil, Miller and Kravtsov have higher potential than the players you listed and what you’re giving them credit for. Frankly the only player you listed that compares to the three I just listed is Kreider.

 

[East Coast Bias]

I think it’s a bit ridiculous to chastise RB or BRB when what they and others are proposing is doing something differently than this franchise has in the past. The thought process where they want a shot at a number 1 pick isn’t flawed. Of course it’s not guaranteed... but it’s also something we have never had.

We have one cup in 78 years.

Doing something different is probably a good idea at this point.

Can great players be found outside the top-3 of the draft? Of course they can. But if you’re picking 1-3 isn’t a bit more of a guarantee?

The kids and Quinn may not let that happen but wanting to see it isn’t a ridiculous concept

We already are doing something different. I don't see many people criticizing the approach of aiming for a #1 pick. That would be great. But it's largely out of our control. You have 82 games to decide a season, with injuries and luck and young players developing, and then a lottery. People are so fixated on the 1OA and it's not a viable end game strategy. It's the best result of a rebuilding strategy, not the sole goal. There are loads of other pieces and actions you can take to reach your end game.

How this team plays is completely out of our control. They've done the right things thus far. If they buy at the deadline, I'll be 1000% on board with outrage b/c it would be beyond stupid. But other than a Larry Brooks opinion piece, we've seen no sign of this being part of the plan.

And seriously what is the alternative here? Freaking out about us playing too well through 26 games? Sending Chytil, Lias and Howden down. Bench ADA and ride McQuaid, Staal, Smith, Shatty. Trade Zucc, Kreider, Hayes. Profit?

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

What? Gorton tried trading for the 4th overall that offseason. That screams getting ready to tear it down to me.

He was, but he held onto literally everyone that off season.

He even had a deal lined up for Stepan during that draft (to AZ.)

We'll see if he will follow through on it this year but I'm skeptical, especially if they're within reach which I don't expect they will be, but yeah.

 

[Machinehead]

This team hasn't been extraordinarily lucky. When they were earlier in the year, I led the charge against that. The underlying numbers say they should be a .500 team and that's what they are.

Nor is this team being carried by aging players. Among their top scorers, the oldest is 27.

They traded McDonagh, Nash, Miller, and Grabner. They would have traded Hayes and Zuccarello IMO for the right return, and Hayes has only seen his value climb since then. They approached Hank, who declined being traded. They hired a developmental coach. They've thrown a 23 year old into the #1D role to mixed results.

This team has done everything possible to orchestrate a full rebuild except lose on purpose. They're not going to do that. No team is going to do that.

 

[True Blue]

Nor did it include players with the upside of Chytil, Kravtsov or Miller.

Do be fair, I recall people being ecstatic about Lundmark and Brendl.