Speculation: Roster Building Thread Part XV: Trading up or down? - Mod Warning post #450

[GregSirico]

@Rongomania I just don't see Carolina moving that pick for anything other than a massive over payment.

 

[True Blue]

You don’t trade spooner for a 2nd. You re-sign, let him compete, and trade for more. That being said, I’m right and you’re all wrong. He fetches a 1st now as-is.

You believe that Spooner fetches a 1st? Wow. I think that you are highly overrating him, if you are serious. I would trade him if someone offered a 2nd.

 

[BringBackLibertys]

Everyone is available except Henrik Lundqvist.

What is management's opinion of Pavel Buchnevich? What is his value around the league? Chris Kreider? Kevin Hayes?

In order of your players:

1. We have to try him under the new coach, to trade and see him do great would be bad.
2. We keep him, to important to the core.
3. We have to keep him until are baby centers are ready.

That was a pretty easy one to answer.

 

[Off Sides]

Which teams really would covet Zucc who also have a pick worth trading him for?

He has one year left, so they are going to put that as his value. For that to be worthwhile they'd have to be thinking they are going to at the very least make the playoffs next year. Beyond that it would have to be a team that believes trading that pick is a better idea than waiting for some other option, whether that is a UFA signing or some other trade after the draft. Plus if they feel they can make the playoff without him they'd have to think why not rent at that time once they are more sure they are in.

Not trying to say there is no deal to be made, but it would be quite a set of circumstance to all be lined up.

Perhaps part of a bigger trade, or to only move up while swapping a late first, but getting back a top 15 pick 1 for 1 I think it a little optimistic.



As far as them moving the late 1st picks for reclamation projects, or them thinking it's circumstantial that so and so prospect or young player is just not working out and will do better with the Rangers, I dislike that idea very much as it's rarely the case.

They should just keep and use the picks unless there is some way a upper tier prospect is falling and the next team in line to get that likely bargain is willing to make a deal. If anything I'd almost rather see them trade back with the later firsts than try to move up by combining them.

 

[EpicDing]

Buchnevich is just 23 and entering only his 3rd NHL season, having really only played 1 1/2. Too soon to move on from him IMO, it's something we could come to regret very quickly. We'd probably get a good haul if we did and in the right deal (talking like 2nd overall at worst), sure, but moving him for the sake of moving someone isn't the way to go.

 

[ManUtdTobbe]

Buchnevich will be an elite or close to elite producer in the NHL, the underlying numbers show us that. Pretty much all his comparables are elite wingers, moving on from him would be insane.

 

[Ola]

What makes people think we can get #15 for Zuccarello, but think we can nab someone like Domi for one of our later 1sts?

If you could trade Zuccarello for Domi right now, would you?

In connection with this -- its unfortunately not completely without merit to ask the following question -- what makes people think that NHL GMs will make trades to start with?

I love NHLtradetracker.com. Last summer had the expansion draft. Looking at the 16/17 season:

In May
-Florida traded Gudbransson to Vancouver. A bit of a cap dump/lets split ways trade.
-Chicago dumped Bickell's contract on Carolina with TT

In June
-A few picks are traded on draft day, a cap dump
-Reto Berra for Rocco Grimaldi
-4-5 trades were depth/non-top guys are traded for picks (Eller/Shaw/Holden)
-Tony D is traded for Hajek (didn't know that those two were traded for each other)
-Kulikov for Psysyk
-Hall for Larsson
-Weber for Subban

In July
-Ziba for Brass

In October
-Yaks for Pochiro
Plus some minor cap/roster fine tuning

In November to deadline
More or less nothing, some minor cap/roster fine tunings

Around the deadline
-Not double checking everything, but almost exclusively rentals are dealt/or its the case of cap dumps (Filpulla to Philly for example, Lazar for Jokipakka)

There are sooooo few moves made. 30 NHL GMs. So much big talk. Three bigger hockey trades during 12 months. Almost everything else is minor roster management/cap dumps.

 

[EpicDing]

The day with Hall/Larsson, Weber/Subban, and Stamkos signing was insane.

 

[BringBackLibertys]

I am lost, I don't want Kovalchuk, but I don't see any breaking news on him. Why is this post even here?

 

[Fireonk]

You don’t trade spooner for a 2nd. You re-sign, let him compete, and trade for more. That being said, I’m right and you’re all wrong. He fetches a 1st now as-is.

Not that I dont think Spooner is worth a late 1st, I just dont see teams actually pulling the trigger. Teams looking to improve now are more likely to want to package that asset with something else for a bigger fish. Those same teams are also likely worried about cap space and might want to wait until after free agency to bring a guy like him.

I think if you want to move Spooner for a 1st this year you need to add a smaller asset as well with him to entice a team.

 

[NYR Viper]

Not that I dont think Spooner is worth a late 1st, I just dont see teams actually pulling the trigger. Teams looking to improve now are more likely to want to package that asset with something else for a bigger fish. Those same teams are also likely worried about cap space and might want to wait until after free agency to bring a guy like him.

I think if you want to move Spooner for a 1st this year you need to add a smaller asset as well with him to entice a team.

Ryan Hartman returned a 1st at the deadline. Tomas Tatar returned a 1st, 2nd and 3rd. I think it just takes a single team to look at him and say, 'he would really help with secondary scoring and PP2 minutes'. Florida, Calgary, Edmonton, Arizona, Dallas. There are others. Those teams seemed very top heavy last year and all are expecting to take a step forward next year. If I were their GM's Spooner is the type of player I'd be looking for. 41p in 59gp on two different teams.

 

[Gardner McKay]

One of these guys plays for the Rangers

Homer glasses only come in super strength on HF Boards.

I have to disagree here. Zucc is a proven commodity. Domi is a big question mark. Zucc is more likely to be valuable to a team like Florida that NEEDS to get over the hump and have some playoff success. I still think the 15th is too much but Zucc + NJD 2nd for 15th + 4th rounder isn't a horrible deal.

Conversely, what teams would really value Domi? He has no playoff experience. You don't know what you're getting. A team that wants to go to the next level needs a Zucc more than a Domi.

 

[Avery16]

Grabner didn’t get a first and he’s an overall Better player

Spooner gets a 1 year or 2 max deal. He helps w some offense then gets flipped for picks which is great asset management on the Nash deal

They took spooner and Belesky contract to get the 1st and a former 2nd round d prospect

Grabner got a 2nd AND a good defensive prospect, and that was for an older rental. Beleskey wasn’t a a throw in. At 50% retained, it’s a good contract to have, not a bad one to take on.

 

[NYR Viper]

Grabner got a 2nd AND a good defensive prospect, and that was for an older rental. Beleskey wasn’t a a throw in. At 50% retained, it’s a good contract to have, not a bad one to take on.

I think Boston was looking to move on from him for the next couple of years. I agree, I like him on the 4th line

 

[Off Sides]

In connection with this -- its unfortunately not completely without merit to ask the following question -- what makes people think that NHL GMs will make trades to start with?

I love NHLtradetracker.com. Last summer had the expansion draft. Looking at the 16/17 season:

In May
-Florida traded Gudbransson to Vancouver. A bit of a cap dump/lets split ways trade.
-Chicago dumped Bickell's contract on Carolina with TT

In June
-A few picks are traded on draft day, a cap dump
-Reto Berra for Rocco Grimaldi
-4-5 trades were depth/non-top guys are traded for picks (Eller/Shaw/Holden)
-Tony D is traded for Hajek (didn't know that those two were traded for each other)
-Kulikov for Psysyk
-Hall for Larsson
-Weber for Subban

In July
-Ziba for Brass

In October
-Yaks for Pochiro
Plus some minor cap/roster fine tuning

In November to deadline
More or less nothing, some minor cap/roster fine tunings

Around the deadline
-Not double checking everything, but almost exclusively rentals are dealt/or its the case of cap dumps (Filpulla to Philly for example, Lazar for Jokipakka)

There are sooooo few moves made. 30 NHL GMs. So much big talk. Three bigger hockey trades during 12 months. Almost everything else is minor roster management/cap dumps.

Agreed, the reasoning in my mind is, without some sort of pressure to get something done the GMs are going to be pretty conservative and with that comes prices no one is willing to pay.

Even the more recent Rangers trades,

Brassard for Zbad, Ottawa did not want to pay real money, so they waited until Brassard was paid his bonus then they made the move.

Stepan, Arizona needed a center, one who was good and had term left, His clause was about to start, That gave both teams motivation to get it done.

The trade deadline is a deadline.

I'm not so sure we see much movement in the draft, preseason or into the season, someone would have to overpay (Hall for Larson) and unless something happens, a long term injury, them making cap space for a large signing, etc, there is no motivation to get anything done.

Instead of trying to fit into that cycle of supply and demand, Rangers should use it to their advantage. If someone wants one of their late first they should overpay for it. That works both ways, if the Rangers want to move up or get another pick, they too will overpay for it.

Problem being that would take patience, (want the 2018 #26? okay that will cost 2019 1st plus 2020 2nd or something along those lines) to take advantage of another teams impatience. If true the Rangers are thinking about moving picks for older prospects/young NHLers, the other team is going to be taking advantage of the Rangers impatience.

 

[silverfish]

I have to disagree here. Zucc is a proven commodity. Domi is a big question mark. Zucc is more likely to be valuable to a team like Florida that NEEDS to get over the hump and have some playoff success. I still think the 15th is too much but Zucc + NJD 2nd for 15th + 4th rounder isn't a horrible deal.

Conversely, what teams would really value Domi? He has no playoff experience. You don't know what you're getting. A team that wants to go to the next level needs a Zucc more than a Domi.

Domi is cost controlled for the next four years and Zucc needs a new deal after next season. He's 23 years old, has two 40+ point campaigns under his belt.

Who has more value, Buchnevich or Zuccarello?

 

[BringBackLibertys]

I have to disagree here. Zucc is a proven commodity. Domi is a big question mark. Zucc is more likely to be valuable to a team like Florida that NEEDS to get over the hump and have some playoff success. I still think the 15th is too much but Zucc + NJD 2nd for 15th + 4th rounder isn't a horrible deal.

Conversely, what teams would really value Domi? He has no playoff experience. You don't know what you're getting. A team that wants to go to the next level needs a Zucc more than a Domi.

Well, adding a second does change things some, but I don't think we get a 4th back. Zucc + 2nd for 15thOA is more something that I could see happening. As for Domi, he is already a 40pt a year player and there has already been open interest from at least the Pens, and I am sure other teams would kick the tires to find out what Arizona wants. He is young and has space left to grow, so I think he is worth more then Zucc, who many would think has already shown all he has, and will soon be in decline.

 

[Mac n Gs]

I am lost, I don't want Kovalchuk, but I don't see any breaking news on him. Why is this post even here?

TurgePurge has a new burner account to spew nonsense from. Just ignore it

 

[Fireonk]

Ryan Hartman returned a 1st at the deadline. Tomas Tatar returned a 1st, 2nd and 3rd. I think it just takes a single team to look at him and say, 'he would really help with secondary scoring and PP2 minutes'. Florida, Calgary, Edmonton, Arizona, Dallas. There are others. Those teams seemed very top heavy last year and all are expecting to take a step forward next year. If I were their GM's Spooner is the type of player I'd be looking for. 41p in 59gp on two different teams.

I do think a guy like Spooner has more value at the deadline than at the draft. Teams have a better sense of what they are missing and in Spooner's case you will be able to take into account his contract since right now its a bit unknown.

Like I said, I think hes worth it, and can definitely see Spooner plus a later pick getting it done. Just would be surprised if a team was willing to pull the trigger in a straight one for one at the moment for him.

 

[silverfish]

TurgePurge has a new burner account to spew nonsense from. Just ignore it

I can't wait for the day that people realize I'm @RangerBoy 's burner account

 

[NYR Viper]

Domi is cost controlled for the next four years and Zucc needs a new deal after next season. He's 23 years old, has two 40+ point campaigns under his belt.

Who has more value, Buchnevich or Zuccarello?

Doesn't it depend on the team?

 

[NYR Viper]

I do think a guy like Spooner has more value at the deadline than at the draft. Teams have a better sense of what they are missing and in Spooner's case you will be able to take into account his contract since right now its a bit unknown.

Like I said, I think hes worth it, and can definitely see Spooner plus a later pick getting it done. Just would be surprised if a team was willing to pull the trigger in a straight one for one at the moment for him.

If I was a team like Dallas or Edmonton looking for secondary scoring help both this year and moving forward, I'd want him before the season and to try and sign him to a nice 3-4 year deal at a reasonable contract.

 

[silverfish]

Doesn't it depend on the team?

Sure, but then that's the argument for basically every player ever and not sure why it only matters now.

But you could also make the argument that it depends on price. Domi may have a ton of value to a team that's on the verge of competing like Winnipeg because they'll need cost controlled players to maintain the core. Just like Domi has a ton of value to a more rebuilding or retooling team, that is looking to compete in the future.

Either way, I don't see Chayka dealing Domi. He traded for Panik and cited his low Sh%. He's not going to sell low on Domi for the same reason.

 

[NYR Viper]

Sure, but then that's the argument for basically every player ever and not sure why it only matters now.

But you could also make the argument that it depends on price. Domi may have a ton of value to a team that's on the verge of competing like Winnipeg because they'll need cost controlled players to maintain the core. Just like Domi has a ton of value to a more rebuilding or retooling team, that is looking to compete in the future.

Either way, I don't see Chayka dealing Domi. He traded for Panik and cited his low Sh%. He's not going to sell low on Domi for the same reason.

I think there's more there with Domi being unhappy that Chayaka will be looking to improve the team

 

[Fireonk]

If I was a team like Dallas or Edmonton looking for secondary scoring help both this year and moving forward, I'd want him before the season and to try and sign him to a nice 3-4 year deal at a reasonable contract.

Yes, but neither of those teams trades their picks straight up for Spooner. I can definitely see one of them doing a deal around Spooner and one of our later 1sts though.