Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XII

[Kovalev27]

pionk plus a winger makes a lot of sense for Toronto if he's as highly regarded outside of the org as he is inside the org. I still think he was on the PP as part of a showcase deal. as great a player as nylander is it does not make sense for Toronto to commit that kind of money to him. they have other options on the wing and cannot afford to pay big money to him when they need help on D and need to pay marner and Matthews. they should deal him its the smart move even if it hurts. but getting a cost controlled 23 year old righty D plus a replacement winger in buchnevich that with talent around him probably easily puts up 50 pts is a smart trade.

 

[Edge]

I still maintain that getting out of Stepan's NMC was a positive move long-term, but its cool if you want to play checkers and consider the trade decided after 16 months.

Not really sure Stepan would do much to help our situation either.

He got off to a slow start last year and played well when the Yotes played well.

This year, kind of the same, he's off to a slow start and not really demonstrating an ability to lift the team around him.

I have a feeling the results here wouldn't be much different and we'd be frustrated with him and talking about he probably isn't the type of guy we really build around moving forward.

The key difference being that if he were here now we'd have a much more difficult time moving him.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

And understanding that just like those Rangers' teams were not looking to trade established stars for prospects, let alone suspects, other teams entering or in their window will not be looking to trade us their established stars for the pieces of the rebuild we aren't as passionate about.

And before someone brings up Callahan... He was a pending UFA and Bill Ny is RFA. Not even close to comparable haha

 

[Edge]

pionk plus a winger makes a lot of sense for Toronto if he's as highly regarded outside of the org as he is inside the org. I still think he was on the PP as part of a showcase deal. as great a player as nylander is it does not make sense for Toronto to commit that kind of money to him. they have other options on the wing and cannot afford to pay big money to him when they need help on D and need to pay marner and Matthews. they should deal him its the smart move even if it hurts. but getting a cost controlled 23 year old righty D plus a replacement winger in buchnevich that with talent around him probably easily puts up 50 pts is a smart trade.

Toronto is not traded Nylander for a combination like Pionk and Buchnevich (or something similar).

If Toronto is trading Nylander, it's for someone established and likely to be seen as being at a comparable skill level.

 

[Mac n Gs]

The one thing that makes this whole process seem better is that Gorton and co. have consistently shown an aptitude to target high-end young players: Keller at the 16 draft (deal with EDM for the 4th pick fell through per Dave Maloney), Elias Petersson in 2017 (reported by Bob McKenzie), Chytil, Andersson, Howden/Hajek, and now Kasperi Kapanen. I was a big fan of the first round last year too.

 

[Edge]

And before someone brings up Callahan... He was a pending UFA and Bill Ny is RFA. Not even close to comparable haha

And Callahan was traded for someone older and also established as an NHL player.

The Rangers didn't ship him out for prospects and emerging talents.

And Toronto almost certainly would not do that for Nylander.

You know the type of deal they're looking for? A Seth Jones type of deal. Assuming they are even looking to deal Nylander, which I don't think they are.

 

[eco's bones]

I could see the Leafs interested in various of our D. A guy like Smith might be a good fit as a 4 or 5D for them. Not against the idea but if we're going to retain half his salary going forward then they would have to sweeten the deal. Straight up Smith is probably worth their 2nd anyway. With salary retained I'd want their 1st or a 2nd with a very good prospect. At the deadline with other buyers Smith could get more than that though and especially if he's had a pretty good year. There's no rush needed on our part--either Dubas gives us our ask or no deal--we can wait for other buyers to come along around the deadline. IMO Toronto making a deal now is all about getting a deal ahead of the market.

 

[Kovalev27]

someone more established costs money though. pionk and buchnevich are young and cost controlled and also not unknowns. buchnevich is putting up pts on a bad team and has for a couple years now. pionk is the question as I said. is he as highly regarded around the league as he is by our management team? he was playing for the world championship team. righty d men don't grow on trees. especially cheap 23 year old ones.

 

[kovazub94]

The Rangers really screwed up the situation with these two. I guess the hope was they'd both pump up their values in the final year of their contracts, but how much could that possibly happen while they're playing with team titanic around them? They are destined to get a late first rounder and B prospect for these guys now, and thats if they're lucky.

I disagree on both accounts that the Rangers screwed up by not trading Hayes and Zuke at the last trade deadline.

I think many fans don't grasp the concept, the need and true benefit of having such players on the roster to insulate developing prospects from being put in roles roles they are not ready for. Chytil, Howden (and possibly Andersson at some point) are definitely benefiting in many ways. There's really not much to discuss, one either gets the concept or not.

Second, there is a lot of arguments that playoff hopeful teams are will willing to give more at TDL than in the offseason, even if there is a bigger pool of potential trade partners in the offseason. In this regard it didn't make sense to trade Zuke and Hayes even earlier - at 2018 TDL when the Rangers parted with Nash, Grabner and Miller at forward position. More supply = diminishing return.

Also, in terms of a trade value - most GMs assign values and go after specific players based on their overall reputations (as factors vs another factor being their recent few months performance). Looking at Nash's trade as a prime example of a reputation being a prime driver in spite of a poor performance even though a personal decline was a true reason for such performance.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

And Callahan was traded for someone older and also established as an NHL player.

The Rangers didn't ship him out for prospects and emerging talents.

And Toronto almost certainly would not do that for Nylander.

You know the type of deal they're looking for? A Seth Jones type of deal. Assuming they are even looking to deal Nylander, which I don't think they are.

The Jones-Johansen trade is one of my favorite trades in the last decade because it's so rare. It is the only trade that I can think of where 2 established players are traded in a one-for-one deal that benefits not only both teams, but also both players.

 

[NikC]

I still maintain that getting out of Stepan's NMC was a positive move long-term, but its cool if you want to play checkers and consider the trade decided after 16 months.

Not questioning why we traded Stepan...
They got a non NHL player in return, and a "safe " player that can't Crack the 4th line 2 yrs in a row.

I said POTENTIAL to be bad....

Instead of rushing to post your usual snide remark, you might want to think about what you write going forward. ..

You won't though. ..

 

[E-Train]

and a "safe " player that can't Crack the 4th line 2 yrs in a row.

I hope you're joking , it's comically wrong.

 

[Edge]

I think the Rangers got solid value for Stepan. For me, the wildcard was and is ADA.

I think Andersson will be a very good player with time, and his production will probably be similar to Stepan's.

But if ADA were to pan out, that pushes the outcome more toward the Rangers' favor.

Having said that, a trade like the Stepan trade is the risk when you move established NHL talent for picks and prospects.

Much like the concept of a rebuild, those types of trades always sound much better in concept than they do in reality.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Not questioning why we traded Stepan...
They got a non NHL player in return, and a "safe " player that can't Crack the 4th line 2 yrs in a row.

I said POTENTIAL to be bad....

Instead of rushing to post your usual snide remark, you might want to think about what you write going forward. ..

You won't though. ..

- Logan Couture played junior hockey for 2 years after being drafted
- Kyle Turris started in the AHL in his 2nd season
- Brayden Schenn played junior hockey for 2 years after being drafted
- Nazem Kadri started in the AHL in his 2nd season
- Nino Niederreiter started in the AHL in his 2nd season
- Derick Brassard started in the AHL in his 2nd season
- Bryan Little started in the AHL in his 2nd season
- Mikael Granlund started in the AHL in his 3rd season

But yeah, let people jump to conclusions hahaha

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

The Jones-Johansen trade is one of my favorite trades in the last decade because it's so rare. It is the only trade that I can think of where 2 established players are traded in a one-for-one deal that benefits not only both teams, but also both players.

Yeah. The only other one that I recall like that—and even that trade wasn't a true need for need deal—was Heatley for Hossa.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Yeah. The only other one that I recall like that—and even that trade wasn't a true need for need deal—was Heatley for Hossa.

That's a good one as well, but the JoJo trade was unique. A top-pair D-man for a 1st line center and everyone walked away from the table a happy man.

 

[Gardner McKay]

Can someone still explain to me why in the world they think Toronto would want to ship Nylander to the NYR?

Especially if its for a bunch of players that some seem to regularly think are some combination of lazy, crappy, overpaid, or all of the above and then some?

I don't think they would. I also don't want him so...

 

[Gardner McKay]

I disagree on both accounts that the Rangers screwed up by not trading Hayes and Zuke at the last trade deadline.

I think many fans don't grasp the concept, the need and true benefit of having such players on the roster to insulate developing prospects from being put in roles roles they are not ready for. Chytil, Howden (and possibly Andersson at some point) are definitely benefiting in many ways. There's really not much to discuss, one either gets the concept or not.

Second, there is a lot of arguments that playoff hopeful teams are will willing to give more at TDL than in the offseason, even if there is a bigger pool of potential trade partners in the offseason. In this regard it didn't make sense to trade Zuke and Hayes even earlier - at 2018 TDL when the Rangers parted with Nash, Grabner and Miller at forward position. More supply = diminishing return.

Also, in terms of a trade value - most GMs assign values and go after specific players based on their overall reputations (as factors vs another factor being their recent few months performance). Looking at Nash's trade as a prime example of a reputation being a prime driver in spite of a poor performance even though a personal decline was a true reason for such performance.

If you trade Hayes and Zucc at the deadline last year you all but guarantee you don't receive fair value for them. When you flood the market, you lower prices. It is not a theory, it is a fact.

By waiting to trade them this year, you still run the risk of not receiving fair value but I think you are better off than if you trade them at last years deadline when we were doing a fire sale on the rest of the team. In theory, guys playing on the last year of a contract or a one year contract tend to perform well so their next contract is very fat - this would also lend to a nicer return in a tread. Hopefully Hayes and Zucc pick it up.

Even if we end up getting a late 1st rounder and a B prospect, I mean... history has shown us that more often than not, you won't receive a return like Sakic received on the Duchene deal. It is kind of expected, 1st + B prospect. Anything better than that would be gravy IMO.

This is why a few of us cautioned against a rebuild for years. In theory it works well and sounds great, kind of like communism. In reality, also like communism, it rarely ever works as expected. It is more frustrating, grueling and agonizing than the pretty image that people paint in their own heads.

 

[DanielBrassard]

pionk plus a winger makes a lot of sense for Toronto if he's as highly regarded outside of the org as he is inside the org. I still think he was on the PP as part of a showcase deal. as great a player as nylander is it does not make sense for Toronto to commit that kind of money to him. they have other options on the wing and cannot afford to pay big money to him when they need help on D and need to pay marner and Matthews. they should deal him its the smart move even if it hurts. but getting a cost controlled 23 year old righty D plus a replacement winger in buchnevich that with talent around him probably easily puts up 50 pts is a smart trade.

I don't believe Pionk has nearly as much value to other organizations as he does to the Rangers sadly. But who really knows. Somehow I could also see the Rangers refusing to trade Pionk for WN.

 

[Trxjw]

I don't see a Johansen/Jones deal out there for Nylander. I don't think he's at that level yet.

The only real logic I can see behind a Nylander to NYR deal is if the Leafs see value in getting two players back that fill voids and are the cap equivalent of what Nylander is asking for. For example, Kreider and Skjei address two possible needs and are just shy of $1M more expensive than what Nylander allegedly wants. Is that worth it to them given the cap issues they're going to face moving forward? Obviously it's an overpayment for Nylander buy the Leafs could send pieces back to balance it out.

 

[Irishguy42]

 

[True Blue]

I’m interested in Puljujarvi if the cost is something like Spooner/Namestnikov and DeAngelo

Why would Toronto ever make this trade?

 

[Thirty One]

Why would Toronto ever make this trade?

You're doing great.

 

[Irishguy42]

Claesson not out on the ice, per Stephenson

 

[Lion Hound]

Good to see Boo getting better. Not sure where he plays though? Cant see him over Howden.