Salary Cap: Roster-Building Pt. XXI| (Fun Title Here)| Kunitz Proposal Here

[Extra Texture]

If a player on the team could vouch for Kane and the organization would buy in, I'd swap Kunitz for him easily. If we're adding Pouliot in a larger deal, I'd ask for retention.
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I was think about that one too, and as far as his former Teammates, there's....Fehr. Of course, Fehr might be a goner anyway, so there's that.

Thing with Kane's issues is that he's either been the misfit of the locker room or, now, on a youngish team that is rebuilding. That's not to excuse any of his stupid behavior, but coming into a winning locker room with strong leadership and character guys can do wonders. Obviously the issues are apples and oranges but we heard about how Schultz was a lazy, uncaring player for the Oilers, and big headed from his earlier contract saga. He got here and the difference was almost immediate. If Kane got here and things started clicking on the ice im sure the guy would be a lot more willing to buy into the team's culture.

Kane the player, with 50% retention, on this team might be an incredible coup. And even if it wasn't a home run, the financial penalty isn't that bad. But rolling the dice at the expense of someone like DP is a bit too much for me. It would have to be cheaper. But if it's that or putting together a larger, much pricier offer for JVR then id be more inclined to roll the dice.



Edit: i knew about the fight in BC but not about the allegation against him since he got to Buffalo. Obviously nothing has been proven yet, but those incidents change my perspective. That's a lot more than wearing a track suit to a team meeting

 

[Riptide]

I'm totally fine with being patient but they do need an upper tier LW'er at some point, imo.

I'm not playing the Shero game of Sid/Geno doing more with less.
Theres cap $ coming soon to afford a stud NHL LW'er.
Sid didn't take 8.7M to play with lesser talent.

This is a post I wrote in response to someone on the trade board about Sheary.

He's on pace for 28.5 goals and 67 points. 26/59.6 of that at ES. If he were actually to continue that pace do you know what kind of company that would put him in?

Let me put it this way. There's only 23 players who've scored 51+ ES points over the last 2 seasons - and 4 of those entries belong to Crosby and Tavares, so that should give you some sort of idea as to how rare and more importantly how good it would be if Sheary could even come close to that. 21 ES goals is a little more common with 51 players hitting that over the last 2 seasons.

But in either case, if Sheary comes anywhere near what his current pace is, there's no reason to attempt to move him for someone better or even someone who's going to bury him in the depth chart - especially when that someone better will not be getting prime PP minutes. Crosby, Malkin and Kessel all average 3:40+ per game on the PP. Bonino (who's our anchor on the 2nd PP) averages less than 2 minutes a game. Which means whomever we'd be looking at must be producing at ES. Do you know where Sheary currently ranks in ES goals and ES points? He's tied with guys like Matthews, Hossa and Pavelski with 15 ES points (not sure where he lands after his ES point tonight) and tied with guys like Kessel, Marchand and Nash with 7 ES goals.

Oh, and the best part - his next contract will almost certainly be less than 2m - and that's if he hits 45-50 points. So please, tell me how we're suppose to upgrade on this for a cap team and what this new guy will apparently do with little PP time.

 

[ColePens]

^^ I say instead of trading for a big time NHL LW... let's just see if Sheary is one. To be honest, he's playing like one. I say let's roll with it. Maybe we struck gold with this one? Maybe he's evolving into a Tyler Johnson type player. Or maybe he's going to come back down to reality soon. Who knows? But right now, let's ride the wave.

 

[Peat]

I'm beginning to think the best argument for moving Sheary from the first line isn't that he's not good enough, but that he's too good. If you want a dangerous third line and don't want to split Geno and The Phil, then dropping Sheary down there is the obvious step. I'm too lazy to look up Sheary's production away from Sid this season but iirc its been pretty good.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

^^ I say instead of trading for a big time NHL LW... let's just see if Sheary is one. To be honest, he's playing like one. I say let's roll with it. Maybe we struck gold with this one? Maybe he's evolving into a Tyler Johnson type player. Or maybe he's going to come back down to reality soon. Who knows? But right now, let's ride the wave.

Yep. I had doubts abut Sheary coming into this year, but he's playing great and this is the time to find out if our young forwards can take the ball and run with it, or if we need to look outside the org for an upgrade.

Doing the latter first would be a mistake.

 

[Riptide]

I saw absolutely nothing from Guentzel's time in the NHL that makes me think that Guentzel-Bonino-Rust or Guentzel-Malkin-Rust would at all be anything but an elite line. Absolutely nothing. Guentzel himself is an impact LWer, do people forget how good he was in the NHL this year? Guentzel-Malkin-Rust is last year's playoff line if you made Rust better and you age Kunitz back 6 years and give him fantastic playmaking and a high hockey IQ.

You're cheapening the definition of elite.

One day? Perhaps. This year? C'mon.

You're being very generous Kirk. But I agree there's no way Guentzel - Malkin - Rust should be considered an elite line. It's a young fast line with one of the best centers in the game... but that's about it.

Guentzel came up and showed that he's a very promising prospect who will almost certainly be a legit top 6 winger at the NHL level very shortly. But that's not today. It's probably not even this year. Hell it might not even be next year. The kid played 5 games and was invisible for one and nearly invisible for another (I missed the NJ game, so not sure what happened there). He was also very heavily sheltered and received limited minutes. Yes he scored some goals. That's great and should give him confidence next time he's up. But he also shot at a 37.5%. If he'd shot 14% (probably still a little high), he'd have 1 goal. If he shot at 10%, he might not even have a goal. How different would some peoples views be here if instead of scoring 3 goals in 2 periods, he had 1g/1a in 5 games and was invisible or almost invisible in 2 of them, while being sheltered with limited minutes and very favorable zone starts?

I know we all hate Kunitz, but Guentzel isn't the answer - at least not yet. One could even debate whether he's a better played due to Kunitz's more complete game. Personally, I think it's more a matter of Guentzel just being a different player who's not Kunitz. Not better, just different.

Does that mean I want to stand pat? No, of course not. I'd love to see an upgrade on Kunitz. Ideally one who's young and will be around for a while. But I'd settle for a pending FA to make another run.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

You're being very generous Kirk. But I agree there's no way Guentzel - Malkin - Rust should be considered an elite line. It's a young fast line with one of the best centers in the game... but that's about it.

Guentzel came up and showed that he's a very promising prospect who will almost certainly be a legit top 6 winger at the NHL level very shortly. But that's not today. It's probably not even this year. Hell it might not even be next year. The kid played 5 games and was invisible for one and nearly invisible for another (I missed the NJ game, so not sure what happened there). He was also very heavily sheltered and received limited minutes. Yes he scored some goals. That's great and should give him confidence next time he's up. But he also shot at a 37.5%. If he'd shot 14% (probably still a little high), he'd have 1 goal. If he shot at 10%, he might not even have a goal. How different would some peoples views be here if instead of scoring 3 goals in 2 periods, he had 1g/1a in 5 games and was invisible or almost invisible in 2 of them, while being sheltered with limited minutes and very favorable zone starts?

I know we all hate Kunitz, but Guentzel isn't the answer - at least not yet. One could even debate whether he's a better played due to Kunitz's more complete game. Personally, I think it's more a matter of Guentzel just being a different player who's not Kunitz. Not better, just different.

Does that mean I want to stand pat? No, of course not. I'd love to see an upgrade on Kunitz. Ideally one who's young and will be around for a while. But I'd settle for a pending FA to make another run.

Are you serious?

You honestly feel that Kunitz's standard has been of similar quality to what Guentzel showed in his call-up, by any metric? Forgetting for the moment that I disagree vehemently and think that Guentzel's speed, skill, smarts, and tenacity were clearly driving play while he was here, answer me this:

Even if you think Guentzel only scored his points on account of an unsustainable shooting percentage and flattering zone starts, why wouldn't you give him a chance to see if he could continue producing before using up assets and cap space trying to find a winger outside the org?

 

[Riptide]

I'm beginning to think the best argument for moving Sheary from the first line isn't that he's not good enough, but that he's too good. If you want a dangerous third line and don't want to split Geno and The Phil, then dropping Sheary down there is the obvious step. I'm too lazy to look up Sheary's production away from Sid this season but iirc its been pretty good.

Yep. I had doubts abut Sheary coming into this year, but he's playing great and this is the time to find out if our young forwards can take the ball and run with it, or if we need to look outside the org for an upgrade.

Doing the latter first would be a mistake.

I still have doubts about him. But until we see some sort of problem, I'm not in a hurry to fix it.

As for him being on the 1st line vs 3rd line, I guess it depends on what our options are. If we've moved Kunitz (say to DAL as part of an MAF deal for someone like Sharp?) then yeah, I'd be all for moving him down to the 3rd line (assuming HMK) to try and inject some skill and play making/creativity there. But as long as Kunitz is around, that wouldn't be the move I'd be making (and no my opinion wouldn't change if we swapped Guentzel & Kunitz).

Unfortunately we do not have too many actual skilled wingers/forwards after Crosby and Malkin. Which limits our options with regards to how we deploy our lines. But for now I think keeping CS with Crosby is the way to go. If we were actually going to start changing things up, it would be going back to HBK (yes I know how well Malkin's line is doing), and trying to find a LW to play with Malkin and Rust. Crosby's line is always going to get the hardest matchups - so I'd like to try and give him as much help as we reasonably can (while not killing our depth). Sheary is really the only guy we have who can do that other than Kessel.

 

[Riptide]

Are you serious?

You honestly feel that Kunitz's standard has been of similar quality to what Guentzel showed in his call-up, by any metric? Forgetting for the moment that I disagree vehemently and think that Guentzel's speed, skill, smarts, and tenacity were clearly driving play while he was here, answer me this:

Even if you think Guentzel only scored his points on account of an unsustainable shooting percentage and flattering zone starts, why wouldn't you give him a chance to see if he could continue producing before using up assets and cap space trying to find a winger outside the org?

I know... it's unpopular to defend Kunitz in any way shape or form, and even more unpopular to knock on our top prospect. Unfortunately that doesn't really change anything.

Are you trying to suggest that 37.5% is sustainable?! He had 8 shots on net - 7 of which were in 2 games (5,2). The best player in the game (who's shooting 12% above his average) is only shooting at 27%. Yes it is the definition of unsustainable.

Because it's not only his production that's the issue. What do you do with his play away from the puck? You can't always start him in the offensive zone (78.13%). He needs time, and he'll learn most of what he needs to learn in the minors. We have time. We've won 7 in a row and are at the top of the league in pts and GF. There's zero need to rush this kid. He'll get another chance this year, and he can come back and show what he's learned. But remember... he's still a first year pro, and the NHL is not a developmental league - at least not when you're playing for the defending champs who are expected to make another deep run.

Again, this isn't me saying he's not a good prospect, because that isn't the case. He's a great prospect and one who will be a very good player for us very shortly (next year or two). But if we want an actual upgrade... he's not it. At least not yet.

 

[madinsomniac]

Anyone think it wise to grab a faceoff guy? Posession starts with a win and we havent been great there this year....

 

[JTG]

Sheary has the look of those depth players that Detroit consistently found back in the day. They weren't big names, but I'll be damned if one of those guys didn't consistently kill you. We have a few of them right now in Sheary, Rust, and Kuhnhackl.

 

[Riptide]

Anyone think it wise to grab a faceoff guy? Posession starts with a win and we havent been great there this year....

Unless we're upgrading Bonino or shifting Hagelin off Malkin's wing, who is he replacing? Because while our FO stats haven't been very good... it's not like we have a ton of ways to change that.

 

[Riptide]

Sheary has the look of those depth players that Detroit consistently found back in the day. They weren't big names, but I'll be damned if one of those guys didn't consistently kill you. We have a few of them right now in Sheary, Rust, and Kuhnhackl.

Rust is someone else with 7 ES goals and who's on pace for 20+ goals. Doubt he hits that unless he see's significant time with Malkin, but it's this sort of depth that will allow us to be successful and to really challenge for another cup.

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

So with another fantastic Schultz performance tonight, do they protect him in the expansion draft? I could see the Pens going with the 4D protection route if Schultz continues to play this well.

Currently I don't see much of a chance that Pouliot gets taken no matter which option we choose. So it's between losing Schultz, or one of Hagelin/Rust.

And I may be beating a dead horse here but if Schultz keeps up his solid play he will be much harder to replace than Hagelin/Rust. Us already having great forward depth anyway gives us even more of an incentive to let Vegas take a forward. I would consider a tiny bribe so they can't take Rust though.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I know... it's unpopular to defend Kunitz in any way shape or form, and even more unpopular to knock on our top prospect. Unfortunately that doesn't really change anything.

This has about as much to do with "popularity" as the idea of Murray being better than Fleury does.

It's about the younger option being a clearly better one.

Are you trying to suggest that 37.5% is sustainable?! He had 8 shots on net - 7 of which were in 2 games (5,2). The best player in the game (who's shooting 12% above his average) is only shooting at 27%. Yes it is the definition of unsustainable.

The problem is that you think I expect and need Guentzel to maintain his shooting percentage and "3 goals per 5 game pace" to justify his being in the line-up over Kunitz. I don't.

I want Guentzel in the line-up because he was better than Kunitz in the overwhelming majority of his time in the NHL, and at his worst was no worse than Kunitz's game-to-game standard. The contrast in speed, work ethic, and talent was obvious.

Because it's not only his production that's the issue. What do you do with his play away from the puck? You can't always start him in the offensive zone (78.13%). He needs time, and he'll learn most of what he needs to learn in the minors. We have time. We've won 7 in a row and are at the top of the league in pts and GF. There's zero need to rush this kid. He'll get another chance this year, and he can come back and show what he's learned. But remember... he's still a first year pro, and the NHL is not a developmental league - at least not when you're playing for the defending champs who are expected to make another deep run.

No, he doesn't. He had 4 points in 5 games and was noticeably better than his competition, who has 1 point in his last 6 games, courtesy of an assist on an EN goal.

What exactly do you think Kunitz does at this point? The guy's spent most of his time this year on our scoring lines and has 2 goals in 24 games, on pace for 7 over 82.

Freaking Craig Adams had 5 goals in '13-'14

Again, this isn't me saying he's not a good prospect, because that isn't the case. He's a great prospect and one who will be a very good player for us very shortly (next year or two). But if we want an actual upgrade... he's not it. At least not yet.

He is absolutely an upgrade. But if you couldn't see that in the last call-up, I'm not sure what to say.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

This has about as much to do with "popularity" as the idea of Murray being better than Fleury does.

It's about the younger option being a clearly better one.



The problem is that you think I expect and need Guentzel to maintain his shooting percentage and "3 goals per 5 game pace" to justify his being in the line-up over Kunitz. I don't.

I want Guentzel in the line-up because he was better than Kunitz in the overwhelming majority of his time in the NHL, and at his worst was no worse than Kunitz's game-to-game standard. The contrast in speed, work ethic, and talent was obvious.



No, he doesn't. He had 4 points in 5 games and was noticeably better than his competition, who has 1 point in his last 6 games, courtesy of an assist on an EN goal.

What exactly do you think Kunitz does at this point? The guy's spent most of his time this year on our scoring lines and has 2 goals in 24 games, on pace for 7 over 82.

Freaking Craig Adams had 5 goals in '13-'14



He is absolutely an upgrade. But if you couldn't see that in the last call-up, I'm not sure what to say.

Clearly? I dont know how 5 games can make anything clear. He was getting limited ice time in a super sheltered role and with normal shooting percentage has 1 goal instead of 3 for 2 points thru 5 games. Now im willing to bet that Guentzel can produce more points that Kunitz in the same role but will it be enough to justify removing Kunitzs ability to defend plus positively effect possession. That isnt clear at all.

Not to mention, moving Kunitz to allow Guentzel to play that spot is a permanent decision. If Kunitz is traded there are no do overs. If Guentzel isnt ready, now what, if someone gets hurt, now what?

 

[Ogrezilla]

I just can't understand talking about Kunitz as a positive outside of scoring. I don't get it. I have never experienced a bigger disconnect between what I'm watching and what advanced stats say.

The dude is a turnover machine. He kills plays dead. If Guentzel played exactly how he had but missed the net on 2 of his 3 goals, I'd still want him in over Kunitz. He just played better hockey regardless of production.

 

[Shady Machine]

Clearly? I dont know how 5 games can make anything clear. He was getting limited ice time in a super sheltered role and with normal shooting percentage has 1 goal instead of 3 for 2 points thru 5 games. Now im willing to bet that Guentzel can produce more points that Kunitz in the same role but will it be enough to justify removing Kunitzs ability to defend plus positively effect possession. That isnt clear at all.

Not to mention, moving Kunitz to allow Guentzel to play that spot is a permanent decision. If Kunitz is traded there are no do overs. If Guentzel isnt ready, now what, if someone gets hurt, now what?

So what does a kid have to do to prove he's ready? He's dominating the AHL and he produced at a very good clip in his time in the NHL. He got sent back and is again, dominating offensively in the AHL.

I just don't understand what else he could do to show he belongs other than being given more games here.

It'd be one thing if Kunitz was still doing something of value. He's basically Scott Wilson right now with a tad harder hits and less goals.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Guentzel came up and showed that he's a very promising prospect who will almost certainly be a legit top 6 winger at the NHL level very shortly. But that's not today. It's probably not even this year. Hell it might not even be next year.

I too like making baseless claims while past evidence points in the absolute other direction.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Clearly? I dont know how 5 games can make anything clear. He was getting limited ice time in a super sheltered role and with normal shooting percentage has 1 goal instead of 3 for 2 points thru 5 games. Now im willing to bet that Guentzel can produce more points that Kunitz in the same role but will it be enough to justify removing Kunitzs ability to defend plus positively effect possession. That isnt clear at all.

Not to mention, moving Kunitz to allow Guentzel to play that spot is a permanent decision. If Kunitz is traded there are no do overs. If Guentzel isnt ready, now what, if someone gets hurt, now what?

Where, oh where, will we ever find a responsible player who can score 2 goals in 24 games for 3.85 mil per if the improbable happens and Guentzel's play goes in the toilet?

Oh, we could just call up Sundqvist, another player who's better than Kunitz.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

So what does a kid have to do to prove he's ready? He's dominating the AHL and he produced at a very good clip in his time in the NHL. He got sent back and is again, dominating offensively in the AHL.

I just don't understand what else he could do to show he belongs other than being given more games here.

It'd be one thing if Kunitz was still doing something of value. He's basically Scott Wilson right now with a tad harder hits and less goals.

There nothing he can do except get the chance and do well with it. Im saying it isnt clear to this point that over the rest of the season he will be as valuable. I think he CAN do it but i wouldnt bet my house on it either.

 

[Ogrezilla]

There nothing he can do except get the chance and do well with it. Im saying it isnt clear to this point that over the rest of the season he will be as valuable. I think he CAN do it but i wouldnt bet my house on it either.

As valuable as what? As valuable as he looked in those 5 games? No, he won't score that much most likely. As valuable as Kunitz? I would bet my house on that for sure.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Where, oh where, will we ever find a responsible player who can score 2 goals in 24 games for 3.85 mil per if the improbable happens and Guentzel's play goes in the toilet?

Oh, we could just call up Sundqvist, another player who's better than Kunitz.

There is no reason to believe Sundqvist is better than Kunitz or anyone else at this point, he might end up better.

Were his 4 points in 18 games impressive? Hos 40 in 68 ahl games? I know hes doing well 23 in 23 this year but at his age he better be putting up those types of AHL numbers or he wouldnt even be worth talking about.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

As valuable as what? As valuable as he looked in those 5 games? No, he won't score that much most likely. As valuable as Kunitz? I would bet my house on that for sure.

That seems needlessly risky.

 

[Ogrezilla]

That seems needlessly risky.

We clearly just have a very different opinion of Kunitz. If we could dump Kunitz for nothing right now, I'd do it. If for whatever reason we end up needing a better LW than what that leaves us with, make a deadline trade for one.

Kunitz may be able to do reasonably well on a team that plays slower than we do. But here, he's just completely the wrong kind of player for what we do.