Salary Cap: Roster-Building Pt. XXI| (Fun Title Here)| Kunitz Proposal Here

[Empoleon8771]

You're cheapening the definition of elite.

One day? Perhaps. This year? C'mon.

What's your support for that line not being elite? The Penguins won the cup with Kunitz-Malkin-Rust last year, Guentzel-Malkin-Rust is that line on steroids. Again, I've seen absolutely no reason that Guentzel isn't an impact winger at the NHL already. Do people forget how people here were calling him our best LWer after just 4 games? He's legit.

Guentzel-Bonino-Rust would have 2 2nd/3rd line tweeners or top end 3rd liners (Bonino and Rust) with a legit top-6 LWer (Guentzel). Malkin is just Bonino on steroids for that line. I don't care how small of a sample size it was, I saw absolutely no reason to think that Guentzel wasn't a top-6 caliber forward already. He was able to do what none of the other young Penguins forwards was able to do: produce and look good immediately.

 

[KIRK]

What's your support for that line not being elite? The Penguins won the cup with Kunitz-Malkin-Rust last year, Guentzel-Malkin-Rust is that line on steroids. Again, I've seen absolutely no reason that Guentzel isn't an impact winger at the NHL already. Do people forget how people here were calling him our best LWer after just 4 games? He's legit.

Guentzel-Bonino-Rust would have 2 2nd/3rd line tweeners or top end 3rd liners (Bonino and Rust) with a legit top-6 LWer (Guentzel). Malkin is just Bonino on steroids for that line.

Ray Shero would've approved this message. He wasted a number of Sid's and Geno's best years saying 'well, it worked in 2009'.

I would prefer that JR not waste another because it worked in 2016.

 

[WayneSid9987]

I mean look at Sid in 50% of his shifts where he totally shuts down cuz a Sheary or Horny or etc. can't make a simple play.
The guy deserves an ELITE LW'er at some point.
Just get one soon, is all i ask.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Ray Shero would've approved this message. He wasted a number of Sid's and Geno's best years saying 'well, it worked in 2009'.

I would prefer that JR not waste another because it worked in 2016.

Then why do you want to go back to HBK? Isn't that the absolute definition of "well, it worked in the past"? Seems like an entirely hypocritical thing to say, not to mention nonsensical. I'm not advocating them going back to Kunitz-Malkin-Rust, I said they won the cup last year with that line and Guentzel on that line plus an extra year of development for Rust would mean that line would be just that much better than the line last year.

I mean look at Sid in 50% of the games where he totally shuts down cuz a Sheary or Horny or etc. can't make a simple play.
The guy deserves an ELITE LW'er at some point.
Just get one soon, is all i ask.

And look at Sheary now, who's on pace for over 60 points. The hate he gets is just stupid at this point. The dude is on pace for 29 goals and 64 points over an 82 game schedule. He's a legitimate top-6 forward, just because you want Jamie Benn with Crosby doesn't make Sheary not a top-6 forward. This is just Shero PTSD talking, the Penguins in no way, shape or form need a wing upgrade right now in their top-9. They need to just trim the fat and play who they have now.

 

[KIRK]

Then why do you want to go back to HBK? Isn't that the absolute definition of "well, it worked in the past"? Seems like an entirely hypocritical thing to say, not to mention nonsensical. I'm not advocating them going back to Kunitz-Malkin-Rust, I said they won the cup last year with that line and Guentzel on that line plus an extra year of development for Rust would mean that line would be just that much better than the line last year.

If you keep HMK, then Guentzel-Bones-Rust is a pedestrian third line. If you think that scares a Claude Julien, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

What I want are options, the options you don't have right now with Kunitz and won't have this season with Guentzel. I want to be able to use HMK without making a third line playoff pedestrian, and I want to be able to try HBK again without reducing the threat Malkin is.

I've mentioned the JVR example (consider him a metaphor for the type of impact guy I'm talking about).

Personally, I'd be happy with Guentzel-Cullen-Kuhn.

 

[WayneSid9987]

Why do you keep bringing up Benn?
He's impossible to get.

 

[Peat]

While we don't need a wing upgrade, it would be pretty sweet if we could somehow find one for Kunitz and a non-Guentzel prospect.

 

[KIRK]

Why do you keep bringing up Benn?
He's impossible to get.

Benn?

While we don't need a wing upgrade, it would be pretty sweet if we could somehow find one for Kunitz and a non-Guentzel prospect.

A winger upgrade is a game changer for the Pens. I'm not even sure I'd toy with Sheary-Sid-Horny. Pair the impact winger with Rust. Keep Hags-Kessel as a combo. You know Geno is good with Hags-Kessel and has the type of chemistry with Rust that could be leveraged well with an impact winger. Same for Bones. You have the luxury of running HMK or trying HBK again and having three scarier lines than last year.

 

[JTG]

You're cheapening the definition of elite.

One day? Perhaps. This year? C'mon.

I think Guentzel and Rust with Bonino would be a great 3rd line and would have good potential to add some pretty serious scoring depth.

 

[Empoleon8771]

If you keep HMK, then Guentzel-Bones-Rust is a pedestrian third line. If you think that scares a Claude Julien, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

What I want are options, the options you don't have right now with Kunitz and won't have this season with Guentzel. I want to be able to use HMK without making a third line playoff pedestrian, and I want to be able to try HBK again without reducing the threat Malkin is.

I've mentioned the JVR example (consider him a metaphor for the type of impact guy I'm talking about).

Personally, I'd be happy with Guentzel-Cullen-Kuhn.

But it's just not a pedestrian 3rd line. Kunitz-Bonino-Wilson is a pedestrian 3rd line. Guentzel (who's a top-6 forward already) with Bonino (who has a history of stepping up his play in the playoffs) and Rust (who's a 2nd/3rd line tweener right now) is a fantastic 3rd line. Saying Rust and Guentzel isn't a good enough wing group for the 3rd line is just flat out ignoring how both good are. The weak link on that line is Bonino if anyone is a problem on that line, who's "only" on a 36 point pace this year (compared to a 40 point pace for Rust and 66 point pace for Guentzel, although he obviously wouldn't maintain that over a full year).

Idk man, I just really don't know how you can say that Guentzel-Bonino-Rust wouldn't be a good enough 3rd line if you have watched the Penguins this year. Guentzel and Rust both have looked excellent this year. I see absolutely no reason to go back to HBK right now, so I'm not even considering it. With Guentzel in Kunitz's spot right now, the Penguins have a flat out elite top-6 and a top of the line 3rd line. That's really how I see it.

Why do you keep bringing up Benn?
He's impossible to get.

Because you keep saying that you want an elite LWer for Crosby.

 

[WayneSid9987]

Because you keep saying that you want an elite LWer for Crosby.

Yes. A 4-6M dollars worth of one.
Not saying he needs it right now.
But he deserves one, at some point.

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

Then why do you want to go back to HBK? Isn't that the absolute definition of "well, it worked in the past"? Seems like an entirely hypocritical thing to say, not to mention nonsensical. I'm not advocating them going back to Kunitz-Malkin-Rust, I said they won the cup last year with that line and Guentzel on that line plus an extra year of development for Rust would mean that line would be just that much better than the line last year.



And look at Sheary now, who's on pace for over 60 points. The hate he gets is just stupid at this point. The dude is on pace for 29 goals and 64 points over an 82 game schedule. He's a legitimate top-6 forward, just because you want Jamie Benn with Crosby doesn't make Sheary not a top-6 forward. This is just Shero PTSD talking, the Penguins in no way, shape or form need a wing upgrade right now in their top-9. They need to just trim the fat and play who they have now.

People keep bringing up sheary numbers ....we are going by the eye test. Team scores more than 4 goals a game and most of the time Crosby gets one point. He could easily have 2-4 points a game right now with the way he's playing(without help). He could seriously be putting up 90s type numbers if he had solid wingers. That's what some are trying to say. Nobody is hating on sheary. I love him in the lineup...just not on Crosby's line. He gets half of his points without Crosby anyways . sheary is the perfect 3rd liner.

Come playoff time I wouldn't bring any of this up...all I care about is wins. But right now as long as we are winning, I want to see Crosby do something that hasn't been done since the 90s. Which he's totally capable of right now if he has the help. I don't even think we need to go out at get a top winger, simple solution would be Guentzel. A guy who can finish on Crosby's passes and also create chances for sid.

 

[KIRK]

I think Guentzel and Rust with Bonino would be a great 3rd line and would have good potential to add some pretty serious scoring depth.

It could be great. It probably would be great in a year or two.

I'm also pretty sure it would scare anyone in the playoffs this year.

I'd much rather add a JVR, test Geno and Bones with the JVR-Rust and Hags-Kessel combos, and run Guentzel-Cullen-Kuhn as a fourth line.

That's a collection of forwards that would attack in waves and make it impossible for even a coach as good as Julien to hide the holes in his roster.

Look, it COULD work with less. It worked last year. But, for me, it's about doing something to significantly impact the chances of a Pens repeat and not counting again, as the Pens did after the 2009 cup, on history repeating itself.

But it's just not a pedestrian 3rd line. Kunitz-Bonino-Wilson is a pedestrian 3rd line. Guentzel (who's a top-6 forward already) with Bonino (who has a history of stepping up his play in the playoffs) and Rust (who's a 2nd/3rd line tweener right now) is a fantastic 3rd line. Saying Rust and Guentzel isn't a good enough wing group for the 3rd line is just flat out ignoring how both good are. The weak link on that line is Bonino if anyone is a problem on that line, who's "only" on a 36 point pace this year (compared to a 40 point pace for Rust and 66 point pace for Guentzel, although he obviously wouldn't maintain that over a full year).

Idk man, I just really don't know how you can say that Guentzel-Bonino-Rust wouldn't be a good enough 3rd line if you have watched the Penguins this year. Guentzel and Rust both have looked excellent this year. I see absolutely no reason to go back to HBK right now, so I'm not even considering it. With Guentzel in Kunitz's spot right now, the Penguins have a flat out elite top-6 and a top of the line 3rd line. That's really how I see it.



Because you keep saying that you want an elite LWer for Crosby.

As I said, if you think Guentzel-Bones-Rust scares a Claude Julien-- and by scares I mean forces him to alter his bench management approach or 'pick his poison'-- then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I'll leave the adjectives to you at this point and focus on the matchups.

 

[WayneSid9987]

I'd be looking for a D beef up right now while trying to move MAF at the same time right this moment.
I cringe at the thought of JR slow playing a potential MAF move simply because he believes a MM/MAF tandem is best for the playoffs.

 

[JTG]

It could be great. It probably would be great in a year or two.

I'm also pretty sure it would scare anyone in the playoffs this year.

I'd much rather add a JVR, test Geno and Bones with the JVR-Rust and Hags-Kessel combos, and run Guentzel-Cullen-Kuhn as a fourth line.

That's a collection of forwards that would attack in waves and make it impossible for even a coach as good as Julien to hide the holes in his roster.

Look, it COULD work with less. It worked last year. But, for me, it's about doing something to significantly impact the chances of a Pens repeat and not counting again, as the Pens did after the 2009 cup, on history repeating itself.

The problem with adding JVR is you have to protect him. I'm also not entire sure why you don't think a Guentzel-Bonino-Rust line would be good. You have 3 guys who are very good hockey players. Guentzel is currently destroying the AHL. Rust is turning into a great 2nd/3rd line player. Bonino is really a 2nd line center. I think that line would be well balanced, fast, and would be able to score a decent amount of goals.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Just looking through the NHL, here are the 3rd lines I'd rather have over Guentzel-Bonino-Rust:

NYR: Miller-Hayes-Grabner
TBL: Killorn-Filppula-Namestnikov (this one mainly due to the advantage Filppula has on Bonino)
CBJ: Hartnell-Karlsson-Anderson

That's about it though, and I think the Tampa 3rd line and the Jackets 3rd line are highly debatable there.

People keep bringing up sheary numbers ....we are going by the eye test. Team scores more than 4 goals a game and most of the time Crosby gets one point. He could easily have 2-4 points a game right now with the way he's playing(without help). He could seriously be putting up 90s type numbers if he had solid wingers. That's what some are trying to say. Nobody is hating on sheary. I love him in the lineup...just not on Crosby's line. He gets half of his points without Crosby anyways . sheary is the perfect 3rd liner.

Come playoff time I wouldn't bring any of this up...all I care about is wins. But right now as long as we are winning, I want to see Crosby do something that hasn't been done since the 90s. Which he's totally capable of right now if he has the help. I don't even think we need to go out at get a top winger, simple solution would be Guentzel. A guy who can finish on Crosby's passes and also create chances for sid.

"Let's dismiss stats because they don't support my bias driven opinion"

Okay

Yes. A 4-6M dollars worth of one.
Not saying he needs it right now.
But he deserves one, at some point.

He deserves to have the best team possible. Spending $4-$6 million dollars on a LWer when he doesn't need that LWer isn't helping him make the best team possible.

As I said, if you think Guentzel-Bones-Rust scares a Claude Julien-- and by scares I mean forces him to alter his bench management approach or 'pick his poison'-- then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I'll leave the adjectives to you at this point and focus on the matchups.

You shouldn't be basing your 3rd line based on what scares the other coach. I'm pretty sure the Penguins top-6 will already be doing enough scaring of other teams. Judging a 3rd line based on how much it scares the other team doesn't make sense at all. Guentzel-Bonino-Rust would simply be a top end 3rd line. If that doesn't scare Julien, well that will be his problem when they're scoring on him. I bet the Rangers weren't scared of Sheary until he was scoring like 4 goals on them either.

If the Penguins need to upgrade anything on that 3rd line, they need to take a hard look at center with Bonino. Bonino's the weakest link of that line by far.

 

[Peat]

Benn?



A winger upgrade is a game changer for the Pens. I'm not even sure I'd toy with Sheary-Sid-Horny. Pair the impact winger with Rust. Keep Hags-Kessel as a combo. You know Geno is good with Hags-Kessel and has the type of chemistry with Rust that could be leveraged well with an impact winger. Same for Bones. You have the luxury of running HMK or trying HBK again and having three scarier lines than last year.

I think you're being a little hasty in dismissing Guentzel as potentially being that guy. He's got the tools and he made an impact when up last time. Him with the Rusty Bones ticks all the boxes about what I'd want in a line, only problem would be the inexperience.

That said... if they do wanna move Kunitz and grab a high quality impact guy with experience, won't cry either. Slightly dubious about the feasibility of getting someone sufficiently good though and long term, it does seem a little wasteful given our prospect group.

 

[KIRK]

The problem with adding JVR is you have to protect him. I'm also not entire sure why you don't think a Guentzel-Bonino-Rust line would be good. You have 3 guys who are very good hockey players. Guentzel is currently destroying the AHL. Rust is turning into a great 2nd/3rd line player. Bonino is really a 2nd line center. I think that line would be well balanced, fast, and would be able to score a decent amount of goals.

I think Guentzel-Bones-Rust would be good.

I also don't think that combo would recapture the three lines attacking in waves thing the Pens had going in last year's playoffs.

I mean, it's not impossible. It's also not impossible that you could have HBK click AND Gunetzel-Malkin-Rust kill it against lesser matchups.

I don't think Bones is really a second line center. He played like one last year with Hags-Kessel, but that's really the only time he's shown that.

As I said, there's an opportunity here to make the game changing move. Guentzel would be an upgrade on Kunitz, but right now, he's not a game changer.

In the end, I keep going back to 2009 and the mistakes that were made in assuming history would repeat itself without steps being taken to truly improve the odds of that happening. JR has a chance to avoid that mistake this year.

I think you're being a little hasty in dismissing Guentzel as potentially being that guy. He's got the tools and he made an impact when up last time. Him with the Rusty Bones ticks all the boxes about what I'd want in a line, only problem would be the inexperience.

That said... if they do wanna move Kunitz and grab a high quality impact guy with experience, won't cry either. Slightly dubious about the feasibility of getting someone sufficiently good though and long term, it does seem a little wasteful given our prospect group.

I'm not dismissing Guentzel. I'm (a) pointing out that you're counting on everything falling right for it to work like last year and (b) saying that if you give me my choice of cars to replace my broken down Kunitz Trax, it's much better for the Pens cup chances if the upgrade is the BMW rather than the CRV.

 

[JTG]

I think Guentzel-Bones-Rust would be good.

I also don't think that combo would recapture the three lines attacking in waves thing the Pens had going in last year's playoffs.

I mean, it's not impossible. It's also not impossible that you could have HBK click AND Gunetzel-Malkin-Rust kill it against lesser matchups.

I don't think Bones is really a second line center. He played like one last year with Hags-Kessel, but that's really the only time he's shown that.

As I said, there's an opportunity here to make the game changing move. Guentzel would be an upgrade on Kunitz, but right now, he's not a game changer.

In the end, I keep going back to 2009 and the mistakes that were made in assuming history would repeat itself without steps being taken to truly improve the odds of that happening. JR has a chance to avoid that mistake this year.



I'm not dismissing Guentzel. I'm (a) pointing out that you're counting on everything falling right for it to work like last year and (b) saying that if you give me my choice of cars to replace my broken down Kunitz Trax, it's much better for the Pens cup chances if the upgrade is the BMW rather than the CRV.

Guentzel had 3 goals and 4 points in 5 games played with 13:30 in ice time per game.

He has the ability to be a difference maker.

 

[Empoleon8771]

If you want to upgrade the 3rd line, why not look at trading for a better 3C? The Penguins have less at center long term than they do at wing, they only have Sundqvist long term at center (who has given me hope can develop into a 3C, but I'd rather expect him to be a 4C and be happy if he ends up a 3C). Bonino could be traded in a Sutter-like deal or could be packaged for someone like the Kesler deal (Bonino, Pouliot and a 1st for a center?).

Let me re-phrase my original comment though. I don't think the Penguins need an upgrade on wing at all, but if the Pens can pull off say Sharp and Niemi for Kunitz and Fleury, you'd be stupid not to do it. I wouldn't actively go out looking for a goalie, but if an upgrade became possible without spending any actual assets, I'd say go for it.

 

[JTG]

I don't think there is any situation where Kunitz gets traded.

 

[Riptide]

I would love Iginla @50%. Easily be able to send Fehr and whatever picks/prospects needed. Would give Sid a shooter on his line, and another shooter for the second powerplay unit.

Sheary - Crosby - Iginla/Hornqvist
Hagelin - Malkin - Kessel
Kunitz - Bonino - Hornqvist/Iginla
Rust - Cullen - Kuhn

Pretty cup worthy.

Would be slow as ****.

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

Iginla is just a name at this point.

 

[Peat]

I'm not dismissing Guentzel. I'm (a) pointing out that you're counting on everything falling right for it to work like last year and (b) saying that if you give me my choice of cars to replace my broken down Kunitz Trax, it's much better for the Pens cup chances if the upgrade is the BMW rather than the CRV.

And I think Guentzel might be a BMW already. I'm not sure, I might be being too bullish, I'd want a longer drive, but he might be.

Ideally someone gets injured soon so we can have another look, then decide on what to move Kunitz for after that. Just need to hypnotise a few people first.

 

[Hockeygod66]

And I think Guentzel might be a BMW already. I'm not sure, I might be being too bullish, I'd want a longer drive, but he might be.

Ideally someone gets injured soon so we can have another look, then decide on what to move Kunitz for after that. Just need to hypnotise a few people first.

Ideally that someone is kunitz.