Salary Cap: Roster-Building Pt. XXI| (Fun Title Here)| Kunitz Proposal Here

[Empoleon8771]

Uhh... I honestly do not even know what to say or how to respond to this.

Maybe you should go watch the games he played in instead of just being a scoreboard watcher, that's a starting idea.

 

[Pancakes]

Five games is way too little to project either way what Guentzel would do had he stayed up.

 

[Riptide]

Maybe you should go watch the games he played in instead of just being a scoreboard watcher, that's a starting idea.

I did (4 of the 5). He was great in his first one, decent in the 2nd, nearly invisible in the 3rd and completely invisible in the 5th.

 

[PensandCaps]

guentzel is certainly an upgrade over kunitz how can anyone say other wise?? he outscored him in 5 games here lol.

jake is the best LWer on the pens.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Why do you assume his shooting % comes down but his shots stay flat?

It'd be one thing if a player that produces modestly in the AHL comes up and has a weird burst of production in the NHL. You could probably assume that player's production was an anomaly. Guentzel is a highly skilled and smart young prospect that left college and lit up the AHL, came back this season and lit up the AHL, was called up and produced immediately, and went back down and kept producing. Sure there will be lulls and adjustments in the NHL, but he's going to produce if given consistent time here.

Im not assuming that, ive mentioned that not only is the sample too small to come to a conclusion on him creating shot but he could just play bettrr as well.

The only thing im assuming is whats safe to assume. His shooting % will regress and it will regress to a third of what it is.

Again im not saying he isnt better than Kunitz im saying There is No Evidence to draw that comclusion because the only thinghe has performed better at is not only a extremely small sample but also subjected to thing we know will regress.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

I did (4 of the 5). He was great in his first one, decent in the 2nd, nearly invisible in the 3rd and completely invisible in the 5th.

Rip, he really wasn't all that invisible. He was hard on the forecheck, put himself in positions to get good shots, excellent on the boards with body position and leverage, etc etc. He played really well, though I suppose with some inconsistency shift to shift.

 

[PensandCaps]

he fanned on an open net, thats the only bad play i remember guentzel making

 

[Pancakes]

guentzel is certainly an upgrade over kunitz how can anyone say other wise?? he outscored him in 5 games here lol.

jake is the best LWer on the pens.

Over Hagelin and Sheary? I like Guentzel and think he will be a player but people are seriously underrating what Sheary and Hags bring to the team.

 

[PensandCaps]

Over Hagelin and Sheary? I like Guentzel and think he will be a player but people are seriously underrating what Sheary and Hags bring to the team.

yes, id say he brings what they bring with speed and on the forecheck but is more skilled. so yes overall id say hes better. but its hard to argue against sheary right now though.

 

[canadianguy77]

Kunitz defenders either don't watch the games, or don't understand what they're watching. He gives the puck away 10 times a game, and basically leetches of everyone else's hard work. Looking like a legit NHLer 10% of the time doesn't make one an NHLer. We have guys in WB who would look like legit NHLers far more than 10% of the time if given the chance. The guy is riding the 09 win and his relationships with certain members of that team. He isn't earning anything on merit anymore. Its all on reputation and its getting very old. If he had an ounce of self respect he would have retired last year and asked for a job in the FO.

 

[Hottubber]

Kunitz defenders either don't watch the games, or don't understand what they're watching. He gives the puck away 10 times a game, and basically leetches of everyone else's hard work. Looking like a legit NHLer 10% of the time doesn't make one an NHLer. We have guys in WB who would look like legit NHLers far more than 10% of the time if given the chance. The guy is riding the 09 win and his relationships with certain members of that team. He isn't earning anything on merit anymore. Its all on reputation and its getting very old. If he had an ounce of self respect he would have retired last year and asked for a job in the FO.

Hes got 3.85 Million dollars worth of reasons why he shouldnt have retired after last year. He will definitely get another 2 year contract by some team

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

Guentzel was all over the place making plays while he was up. And looked comfortable doing it unlike sheary who looks like a spaz at times.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

The extremely small sample size. I bet you can find all sorts of players that had 4 points over 5 games and had/have no business being a top 6 winger.

I bet you can find all sorts of players that had 4 points in 5 games that had every right to be top 6 wingers - particularly ones who had been dynamic scorers at every previous level.

Maybe we should see if he can continue that run instead of worrying about a leech who has 1 point (on an empty net) in the last 6 games.

And while i agree that Kunitz isnt very effective offensively he is extremely effective defensively and he has years worth of data to show he positively impacts possession.

So if for any reason Guentzel comes up fills the same role and doesnt soundly beat Kunitz offensive production it is likely to be either a net negative or a washout. Is that worth losing all your depth for? Really?

I don't want any part of the "depth" Kunitz provides. We are a worse team with him in the line-up.

And say what exactly? That it was expected based on unsustainable results last time around? Or that perhaps more time in WBS actually helped his game? Naw that couldn't be it.

That we shouldn't have waited so long to jettison the dead weight who only scored on account of his linemates for the last 2 calendar years.

Yeah, no one is bias here. The kid hasn't played an NHL game this year and only played a handful last year... yet he's obviously better.

Every single WBS forward we've brought up has been better than Kunitz. How many does it take to realize the guy's riding coattails?

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Rip, he really wasn't all that invisible. He was hard on the forecheck, put himself in positions to get good shots, excellent on the boards with body position and leverage, etc etc. He played really well, though I suppose with some inconsistency shift to shift.

Piggybacking here, but if Guentzel was inconsistent, what the hell has Kunitz been?

Guentzel had more impact shifts in 5 games than Kunitz had in '15-'16 and '16-'17 combined.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

I bet you can find all sorts of players that had 4 points in 5 games that had every right to be top 6 wingers - particularly ones who had been dynamic scorers at every previous level.

Maybe we should see if he can continue that run instead of worrying about a leech who has 1 point (on an empty net) in the last 6 games.



I don't want any part of the "depth" Kunitz provides. We are a worse team with him in the line-up.



That we shouldn't have waited so long to jettison the dead weight who only scored on account of his linemates for the last 2 calendar years.



Every single WBS forward we've brought up has been better than Kunitz. How many does it take to realize the guy's riding coattails?

So now were playing because i say so + cant winnthe argument change it?

Even if Kunitz is a black hole offensively and completely dependent on other for points he is still very muh a positive defensively and helps his linemates on the possession front. I dont know why you cant understand that. And i dont understand why you believe that holds no value. Guentzel would have to score significantly more than Kunitz to justify playing over Kunitz. He very well might be able to do that but not only is it not certain finding out by removing Kunitz leaves us with zero depth.

 

[Fordy]

people will still be denying reality when it comes to kunitz in 2017. this conversation is so beyond useless. if you think kunitz provides any value in any aspect of the game you're insane

no matter how many games he plays without making a significant defensive play, years of killing every line he's on, they're just going to ignore it and claim otherwise. any kid trying to make a mark needs to score 30 goals or they aren't worth it!!!

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

people will still be denying reality when it comes to kunitz in 2017. this conversation is so beyond useless. if you think kunitz provides any value in any aspect of the game you're insane

no matter how many games he plays without making a significant defensive play, years of killing every line he's on, they're just going to ignore it and claim otherwise. any kid trying to make a mark needs to score 30 goals or they aren't worth it!!!

Same old same old because i say so argument.

How about this, when Guentzel was playing he was slotting directly into Kunitz spot. Agreed?

Kunitzs FF is 55% to Guentzels 53%
Kunitzs GF is 60% to GuentZels 56%

That is despite GuentzelS PDO of 103 and Kunitzs of 101

But the eye test is right about something the G/60 is lower with Kunitz compared to Guentzel butbwhat the eye test isnt showing or people arent willing to see is that the GA/60 is much lower as well.

If Kunitz is so horrible Why is there a higher percentage of good things happening on the ice even with the same linemates????

 

[TNT87]

The Penguins have scored 39 goals in 7 games this month.

In six games Kunitz has one assist on an empty netter and is an even +/-

In five games Matt Murray has two assists with one coming on an empty netter.

 

[BobCole]

Same old same old because i say so argument.

How about this, when Guentzel was playing he was slotting directly into Kunitz spot. Agreed?

Kunitzs FF is 55% to Guentzels 53%
Kunitzs GF is 60% to GuentZels 56%

That is despite GuentzelS PDO of 103 and Kunitzs of 101

But the eye test is right about something the G/60 is lower with Kunitz compared to Guentzel butbwhat the eye test isnt showing or people arent willing to see is that the GA/60 is much lower as well.

If Kunitz is so horrible Why is there a higher percentage of good things happening on the ice even with the same linemates????

You're spouting off advanced stats but overlooking a "stats 101" principle: you can't extrapolate anything meaningful from small sample sizes. FFS, Guentzel has played like 4 or 5 NHL games

 

[Shady Machine]

Alright for Ramzi and Rip I will concede 1 thing. I personally don't know without a shadow of a doubt that Guentzel RIGHT now is better than Kunitz in the NHL. I'm pretty positive, but I don't factually know it.

That said, I do know that Kunitz isn't going to cut it as a primary winger on a 3rd line that is supposed to provide offense that gives the Pens a competitive advantage in the playoffs. I do know that Guentzel MIGHT be able to do that. So, maybe we should find out. I'd like to find out now, but I'm also okay waiting until January. I'm not okay with Kunitz having a guaranteed spot in the lineup. He doesn't deserve it based on his play.

 

[PensandCaps]

So now were playing because i say so + cant winnthe argument change it?

Even if Kunitz is a black hole offensively and completely dependent on other for points he is still very muh a positive defensively and helps his linemates on the possession front. I dont know why you cant understand that. And i dont understand why you believe that holds no value. Guentzel would have to score significantly more than Kunitz to justify playing over Kunitz. He very well might be able to do that but not only is it not certain finding out by removing Kunitz leaves us with zero depth.

WTH are you watching....kunitz is awful defensively, he just floats and waves his stick around all lazily. kunitz provides no depth because hes awful and better off without him in the lineup. what depth does kunitz provide? none, if anything he hurts our depth by keeping out better players.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Maybe you should go watch the games he played in instead of just being a scoreboard watcher, that's a starting idea.

better than Sheary is certainly a stretch. Sheary is playing great hockey.

 

[Empoleon8771]

better than Sheary is certainly a stretch. Sheary is playing great hockey.

When Guentzel was up, I thought he was playing better than Sheary. That's probably because Sheary wasn't playing that strong when he was up, but Guentzel stuck out more to me than Sheary did when he was here.

 

[Ogrezilla]

When Guentzel was up, I thought he was playing better than Sheary. That's probably because Sheary wasn't playing that strong when he was up, but Guentzel stuck out more to me than Sheary did when he was here.

that's certainly not that same thing as at minimum being on par with Sheary. I honestly expect that he would be close, but to say that he's there at minimum is overboard. Sheary is on pace for 1.5 less points per 82 than Guentzel was in his 5 games up, but Sheary has done that over 23 games and with a realistic shooting percentage. And with some time in the bottom 6 to start the year.

 

[Fordy]

Same old same old because i say so argument.

How about this, when Guentzel was playing he was slotting directly into Kunitz spot. Agreed?

Kunitzs FF is 55% to Guentzels 53%
Kunitzs GF is 60% to GuentZels 56%

That is despite GuentzelS PDO of 103 and Kunitzs of 101

But the eye test is right about something the G/60 is lower with Kunitz compared to Guentzel butbwhat the eye test isnt showing or people arent willing to see is that the GA/60 is much lower as well.

If Kunitz is so horrible Why is there a higher percentage of good things happening on the ice even with the same linemates????

yeah because he ends every play by turning the puck over in a generally safe area and the whole line has to give up and backcheck which i know because i watch the games. they're always going to be in a defensive posture with him out there because they really have no other option. does that make him a great defensive player because most of his shifts are uneventful?

if kunitz has been making amazing defensive plays all year i musta missed it. please link a few

do you have an advanced stat for players that bring energy to the lineup and can make dynamic plays when needed?

because i say so > because these numbers say so even tho they contradict what everyone says cuz that's not how stats should be used