Salary Cap: Roster-Building Pt. XX | A Fleury of Fehr Proposals (Contract + Cap Info in 1st Post)

[KIRK]

I'd personally run with:

Sheary-Crosby-Hornqvist
Kunitz-Malkin-Kessel
Hagelin-Bonino-Sprong
Rust-Cullen-Fehr
Kuhnhackl

I'd rather get rid of Kunitz and put Guentzel in the lineup too, but that's not realistic to happen. This is assuming Sprong doesn't show any rust in his AHL conditioning assignment and he shows he's a NHL caliber player though, that should be again noted. It's not like the Pens are in a rush to send him down, giving him 2 weeks in the AHL and then a 2 weeks in the NHL to figure out where he's at wouldn't be a problem.

So, on the one hand, Malkin is poor at ES, and on the other hand you'd run with the line on which Malkin mostly has been poor at ES.

Makes sense.

Rust has been better than I would have expected and is a perfect 3rd wheel on a line like Geno's or Bonino's. He's been really good. Not just looking good, he's been really good. For what he makes and being part of that WBS crew, he's the most NHL ready of all of them.

Rust is the best option for 2nd wheel the Pens have for Malkin's line, because the ideal 2nd wheel for a Malkin line is a guy who does the type of things a Malone, Talbot circa 2009, Kunitz circa 2011, and Rust last playoffs did to help Malkin get to his game. That's why Kunitz doesn't look like a total cluster**** with Malkin when Rust is on the other wing, because Kunitz doesn't have to do anything.

Switch Kessel and Sprong and I agree, but my ideal lineup barring trades has Sprong and Guentzel.

But Kunitz is the Teflon Don so.

I wouldn't put Sprong anywhere near a Malkin-Kunitz combo for the same reason I told the naive lot here that putting Kessel near a Malkin-Kunitz combo was a waste that would improve a few things while opening a whole new can of worms.

 

[Shady Machine]

The issue with having Sheary on the 4th line is similar to the issues that other people were saying they had with Sprong on the 4th line. Does Sheary fit with Sundqvist and Kuhnhackl? I don't really know, especially when Fehr will still be here next year. Sheary isn't a guy you play on a defensive line and Sundqvist isn't a guy you play on an offensive line.

From what I've seen of Sheary, I think he is reasonably responsible defensively. I'd certainly be more comfortable with him on a depth defensive line than Sprong. Plus, I think Sprong needs elite playmakers to be most successful whereas Sheary can make things happen on his own. Even if I'm wrong on that, there's nothing wrong with Sheary as 13th or even 14th forward. Having players like Sheary in the press box in case of injuries is much more enticing than Porter.

Alternatively, you could keep Sheary-Crosby-Hornqvist and have a 2nd line of Guentzel-Malkin-Sprong with Rust on the 4th line. Lots of options that don't involve moving Sheary.

It would actually be kinda hilarious if Fleury didn't need to be protected and all of this hysteria was for nothing

So between 65-70 players that have to be autoprotected in the expansion draft. However, there are more than 70 players with NMCs in the NHL. In the NHL right now, there are 80 players with a NMC of some sort, whether it be purely a NMC or a NTC plus a NMC. When you account for career ending injuries, that brings that list down to 75 (takes out Umberger, Clarkson, Pronger, Clowe and Horton). When you take out pending UFAs, that brings the list down to 66 (Ference, Bishop, Datsyuk, Thornton, Marleau, Wideman, Fisher, Doan and Campbell). That falls right around where LeBrun's tweet is saying, meaning that Fleury does need to be protected. It would have been funny had he not needed to be protected, but it seems like he does.

I'm not sure how what Lebrun is saying means Fleury doesn't need to be auto protected.

 

[KIRK]

From what I've seen of Sheary, I think he is reasonably responsible defensively. I'd certainly be more comfortable with him on a depth defensive line than Sprong. Plus, I think Sprong needs elite playmakers to be most successful whereas Sheary can make things happen on his own. Even if I'm wrong on that, there's nothing wrong with Sheary as 13th or even 14th forward. Having players like Sheary in the press box in case of injuries is much more enticing than Porter.

Alternatively, you could keep Sheary-Crosby-Hornqvist and have a 2nd line of Guentzel-Malkin-Sprong with Rust on the 4th line. Lots of options that don't involve moving Sheary.




I'm not sure how what Lebrun is saying means Fleury doesn't need to be auto protected.

52 players have full no move clauses per TFP list.

Another 18 players have NMC with a limited NTC.

If the list is 65-70 players and based on no movement clauses, then you'd have to think it's anyone with a NMC, whether or not the NTC is also full.

 

[Empoleon8771]

From what I've seen of Sheary, I think he is reasonably responsible defensively. I'd certainly be more comfortable with him on a depth defensive line than Sprong. Plus, I think Sprong needs elite playmakers to be most successful whereas Sheary can make things happen on his own. Even if I'm wrong on that, there's nothing wrong with Sheary as 13th or even 14th forward. Having players like Sheary in the press box in case of injuries is much more enticing than Porter.

Alternatively, you could keep Sheary-Crosby-Hornqvist and have a 2nd line of Guentzel-Malkin-Sprong with Rust on the 4th line. Lots of options that don't involve moving Sheary.

Sheary ideally fits in long term as a scoring 3rd line winger. I don't think he has the endurance to play 82 games as a top line winger and him bringing some scoring to the bottom-6 would be extremely enticing. However, if you want Kessel on the 3rd line long term, Sheary simply doesn't fit on that 3rd line in my opinion due to their similar weaknesses. Sheary's spot long term is on LW with Hornqvist, but I don't know if I'd be comfortable with Sheary being the top line LWer for the foreseeable future.

I also might be fine with Sheary being opposite of Sprong, but I really want to see Guentzel and Sprong as a wing duo.

I'm not sure how what Lebrun is saying means Fleury doesn't need to be auto protected.

Because he's opening up the "full NMC vs partial NMC" can of worms again, because no one seems to know whether Fleury has a full NMC or a partial NMC. Him providing the number of players that need to be auto-protected confirms Fleury does need to be protected when you account for expiring NMCs and guys with career ending injuries.

So, on the one hand, Malkin is poor at ES, and on the other hand you'd run with the line on which Malkin mostly has been poor at ES.

Makes sense.

So what do you think the Pens should do? In my example, I was assuming Kunitz isn't being moved or scratched, which is a reasonable assumption.

 

[KIRK]

Sheary ideally fits in long term as a scoring 3rd line winger. I don't think he has the endurance to play 82 games as a top line winger and him bringing some scoring to the bottom-6 would be extremely enticing. However, if you want Kessel on the 3rd line long term, Sheary simply doesn't fit on that 3rd line in my opinion due to their similar weaknesses. Sheary's spot long term is on LW with Hornqvist, but I don't know if I'd be comfortable with Sheary being the top line LWer for the foreseeable future.

I also might be fine with Sheary being opposite of Sprong, but I really want to see Guentzel and Sprong as a wing duo.



Because he's opening up the "full NMC vs partial NMC" can of worms again, because no one seems to know whether Fleury has a full NMC or a partial NMC.



So what do you think the Pens should do? In my example, I was assuming Kunitz isn't being moved or scratched, which is a reasonable assumption.

You put Rust on the RW, just like last game and just like the playoffs.

As I said before they got together and then was proven right after it happened, the problem for a Kunitz-Geno-Kessel line is that it asks Geno and Kessel to play away from their strengths and puts them in situations where they're chasing the play instead of dictating it.

I said last game that Rust reminds me, in terms of impact, of Talbot circa 2009 in terms of how his doing much of the dirty work impacts a line with Malkin. It becomes a possession line at worst (like the playoffs) and an difference making impact line at best if Malkin goes god mode or Rust's hands are on (like late in the TB series, for example).

I mean, that's what it was with Malkin with one good arm, no? Only looks it got this year were the game Rust returned (and was rusty) and last game (when you could see Malkin and Rust starting to redevelop the chemistry they needed a few games last playoffs to develop).

In this model, you're asking Kunitz to be Fedotenko to circa 2009 to Rust's Talbot. Put another way, with Malkin-Rust, you're asking Kunitz to be the player he is now.

With Malkin-Kessel, no matter the potential for the combo, you're asking Kunitz to be the player he was five years ago, so it's no better (and often worse in terms of possession) except those few games a year Geno does his Mario impersonation.

What I want is to shoot Kunitz to the moon. But, if you're stuck with a Malkin-Kunitz combo, because heaven forbid the coach see the lunacy in that, then the Pens are best serves with Kunitz-Malkin-Rust and HBK.

 

[mpp9]

Leave the lines alone that won them a Cup. Tweak from there based on players not performing up to standards.

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

Also, relevant to Fleury:




It would actually be kinda hilarious if Fleury didn't need to be protected and all of this hysteria was for nothing

That would be a fun "in your face" moment to some users on the trade boards. Although sooner or later somebody will probably start a thread about how the whole thing is rigged.

 

[Brandinho]

That would be a fun "in your face" moment to some users on the trade boards. Although sooner or later somebody will probably start a thread about how the whole thing is rigged.

Is there anything sacred in this world that riggers aren't trying to ruin? Damn riggers.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I wouldn't put Sprong anywhere near a Malkin-Kunitz combo for the same reason I told the naive lot here that putting Kessel near a Malkin-Kunitz combo was a waste that would improve a few things while opening a whole new can of worms.

Sprong plays a different game than Kessel and can be a triggerman for Malkin. He's more prone to attack the net with the puck on his stick instead of peeling away like Kessel.

No matter where Kunitz is in the top six, something won't work quite right, so I'm not worrying about trying to figure around a way that he won't hamper his line.

 

[SEALBound]

Is there anything sacred in this world that riggers aren't trying to ruin? Damn riggers.

There's a good chance I will riot either way so...moot point really.

 

[KIRK]

Sprong plays a different game than Kessel and can be a triggerman for Malkin. He's more prone to attack the net with the puck on his stick instead of peeling away like Kessel.

No matter where Kunitz is in the top six, something won't work quite right, so I'm not worrying about trying to figure around a way that he won't hamper his line.

You're right and you're wrong. You're right about what Sprong would do different. But, it won't matter, because you're still asking Malkin and Sprong to do all the dirty work for their line, which means they'll be spending time playing away from their strengths.

When I look at how Kunitz hampers Malkin and when my goal would be to help Malkin get to his game despite the handicap, then the answer to 'who fills what's missing' on a Malkin-Kunitz line is Rust, not Sprong.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong. If they were SMART and went Rust-Malkin-Sprong, then you're getting the best of all worlds. But, Kunitz-Malkin-Sprong requires Kunitz to be the player he was 5 years ago or takes Malkin out of his game. It's why I keep saying I blame Sully.

 

[ColePens]

If that list is finalized, it sets the clear picture for what the Pens need to do. So they should know by the end of the week just which route they'll inevitably have to go.

What are the chances that the flower would be left off the keeper list?

 

[KIRK]

If that list is finalized, it sets the clear picture for what the Pens need to do. So they should know by the end of the week just which route they'll inevitably have to go.

What are the chances that the flower would be left off the keeper list?

If the list is 65-70 players, then the answer is none, since that quantity includes players with NMC's that with full and partial NTC's.

 

[SEALBound]

If the list is 65-70 players, then the answer is none, since that quantity includes players with NMC's that with full and partial NTC's.

According to CapFriendly, there are 80 players with NMCs. Sid, Geno, Kessel, Tang, and MAF for the Pens.

Of those 80, 17 with M-NTCs.

So I mean...if it's 65-70 players, one could suggest that if you have a full NMC, you must be protected and if you have a NMC but also a M-NTC...you could be eligible.

80-17 = 63. So who knows. Guess we will see when the lists comes out.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

You're right and you're wrong. You're right about what Sprong would do different. But, it won't matter, because you're still asking Malkin and Sprong to do all the dirty work for their line, which means they'll be spending time playing away from their strengths.

When I look at how Kunitz hampers Malkin and when my goal would be to help Malkin get to his game despite the handicap, then the answer to 'who fills what's missing' on a Malkin-Kunitz line is Rust, not Sprong.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong. If they were SMART and went Rust-Malkin-Sprong, then you're getting the best of all worlds. But, Kunitz-Malkin-Sprong requires Kunitz to be the player he was 5 years ago or takes Malkin out of his game. It's why I keep saying I blame Sully.

I think Rust works on that line because he and Kunitz have some weird chemistry like I've been pointing out since the spring. I was at the game Sat and saw the same thing once again between those two. You can really see it well in person how they find gaps and support each other.

The funny thing is they kind of play around Malkin and he sort of does his own thing. He's just kind of there, not in the way really, just kind of flying solo. So I'm not sure if Malkin is better in this scenario, but Rust is the only guy on the roster that somehow elevates Kunitz game with their weird bromance.

 

[KIRK]

I think Rust works on that line because he and Kunitz have some weird chemistry like I've been pointing out since the spring. I was at the game Sat and saw the same thing once again between those two.

The funny thing is they kind of play around Malkin and he sort of does his own thing. So I'm not sure if Malkin is better in this scenario, but Rust is the only guy on the roster that somehow elevates Kunitz game with their weird bromance.

A different way of describing it.

I think it's because, as I said, they put Kunitz with Malkin thinking Kunitz does things he did 5 years ago, but he doesn't. Rust does.

It reminds me so much of the 2009 playoffs. Second system changed to more north-south with Bylsma, the Fedotenko-Malkin-Sykora line stopped looking as good as it did, because in that system, Malkin needed what we loosely call 'a puck retriever'. You were asking Fedotenko to be the player he'd been 4-5 years earlier. It wasn't resolved until you found that guy in Talbot and replaced Sykora with him.

Same thing with a Geno-Kunitz line. Kunitz now is like the player Fedotenko was circa 2009. Given that, you need a Rust. The chemistry you describe with Kunitz and Rust is due to the fact that Kunitz doesn't need to do much with Rust there (you'd see something similar, IMO, with Kunitz and Sheary).

Think too of Geno and Neal . . . it went to another, whole greater than sum of parts, type of level with the player Kunitz was 5 years ago. It was hit or miss with all the other combinations.

End of the day, in a north-south system like you get with Sully or got with a Bylsma, Geno needs a puck retriever.

I ******* hate Kunitz, because he kills any added value you'd get putting a Sprong or a Kessel on Geno's RW if a Rust was on the other wing.

 

[Hottubber]

I think Rust works on that line because he and Kunitz have some weird chemistry like I've been pointing out since the spring. I was at the game Sat and saw the same thing once again between those two. You can really see it well in person how they find gaps and support each other.

The funny thing is they kind of play around Malkin and he sort of does his own thing. He's just kind of there, not in the way really, just kind of flying solo. So I'm not sure if Malkin is better in this scenario, but Rust is the only guy on the roster that somehow elevates Kunitz game with their weird bromance.

If thats the case, Rust and Kunitz should be with Fehr or even better Cullen. Slide Bonino up with Malkin. I mentioned it awhile ago. Im not really sure why that hasnt been tried. Bonino isnt the trigger man Malkin needs, but he sees the ice well and could get Malkin the puck

Bonino-Malkin-Kuhn

 

[KIRK]

According to CapFriendly, there are 80 players with NMCs. Sid, Geno, Kessel, Tang, and MAF for the Pens.

Of those 80, 17 with M-NTCs.

So I mean...if it's 65-70 players, one could suggest that if you have a full NMC, you must be protected and if you have a NMC but also a M-NTC...you could be eligible.

80-17 = 63. So who knows. Guess we will see when the lists comes out.

Pierre said 'mostly' full NMC's. Does that mean most of them are full NMC's (most of the NMC's around the league include full NTC's), or does that mean full or extremely limited (i.e., 'mostly) NMC's?

I suspect it's the former. If it's the latter, then Fleury's limited NTC is more restrictive than most of the full NMC/limited NTC deals.

I'll bet he's made the list.

 

[KIRK]

If thats the case, Rust and Kunitz should be with Fehr or even better Cullen. Slide Bonino up with Malkin. I mentioned it awhile ago. Im not really sure why that hasnt been tried. Bonino isnt the trigger man Malkin needs, but he sees the ice well and could get Malkin the puck

Bonino-Malkin-Kuhn

If you're going to dream the impossible dream, then why not Malkin and Rust with NOT KUNITZ?

 

[SEALBound]

If you're going to dream the impossible dream, then why not Malkin and Rust with NOT KUNITZ?

I'd really like to see Rust-Malkin-Kessel for a little while.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I'd really like to see Rust-Malkin-Kessel for a little while.

yes please

 

[KIRK]

I'd really like to see Rust-Malkin-Kessel for a little while.

this . . .









. . . won't happen this year . . .









. . . or next after Kunitz signs his contract extension.

 

[SEALBound]

Wonder what would happen if there was a protest outside of CEC the moments after Kunitz resigned...wonder if that would change anything.

 

[KIRK]

Wonder what would happen if there was a protest outside of CEC the moments after Kunitz resigned...wonder if that would change anything.

Does the amount of time it would take JR to get to his Chinese food buffet count?

It's scary, but I can see them resigning Kunitz to another year for about 2M.

 

[Shady Machine]

Wonder what would happen if there was a protest outside of CEC the moments after Kunitz resigned...wonder if that would change anything.

There would be 5 of us from HFBoards there and the sax guy. Most of Pittsburgh fans love Kunitz.