Salary Cap: Roster-Building Pt. XX | A Fleury of Fehr Proposals (Contract + Cap Info in 1st Post)

[Ogrezilla]

Is Sprong on the 4th line better than Kuhn? He'd score more, but Kuhn is someone we clearly trust on the ice for important D zone situations. Plus the PKing.

If we're healthy, I'd lean towards just sending Sprong back and letting him work his way up next year. If we want to add a young kid to the big club, I'd try Guentzel.

 

[SEALBound]

Is Sprong on the 4th line better than Kuhn? He'd score more, but Kuhn is someone we clearly trust on the ice for important D zone situations. Plus the PKing.

If we're healthy, I'd lean towards just sending Sprong back and letting him work his way up next year. If we want to add a young kid to the big club, I'd try Guentzel.

I would rather he go on the 3rd line and send someone like Rust to the 4th line.

Sheary-Sid-Horny
Kunitz-Malkin-Kessel
Hagelin-Bones-Sprong
Rust-Cully-Fehr

Difference between Sprong and Guentzel is that Guentzel can be sent up and down on a moments notice. We don't get that luxury with Sprong. Once he goes back, poof, he's gone. I'd rather test him a bit to see how he responds first.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Is Sprong on the 4th line better than Kuhn? He'd score more, but Kuhn is someone we clearly trust on the ice for important D zone situations. Plus the PKing.

If we're healthy, I'd lean towards just sending Sprong back and letting him work his way up next year. If we want to add a young kid to the big club, I'd try Guentzel.

I don't agree with this, because I think Guentzel can still become better in the AHL. I don't think Sprong can get better in the Q. Ideally, I'd have both in the NHL and slot them both with Bonino with Kunitz being on the moon.

Also, I think Fehr and Cullen are good enough defensively to the point where Kuhnhackl is redundant on that line. I'm fine with Kuhnhackl being on the 4th line with those two, but his abilities are kinda redundant there.

Why trade depth when you don't have to?

I'd trade Wilson for a D upgrade, I'd probably not want to just dump him.

 

[Shady Machine]

I don't agree with this, because I think Guentzel can still become better in the AHL. I don't think Sprong can get better in the Q. Ideally, I'd have both in the NHL and slot them both with Bonino with Kunitz being on the moon.

Also, I think Fehr and Cullen are good enough defensively to the point where Kuhnhackl is redundant on that line. I'm fine with Kuhnhackl being on the 4th line with those two, but his abilities are kinda redundant there.



I'd trade Wilson for a D upgrade, I'd probably not want to just dump him.

Guentzel is likely more NHL ready than Sprong. I'm sure Guentzel could get better in the AHL, but so could Sprong (unfortunately he can't go there). Guentzel also fills a bigger need (top 6 left wing). If I had to pick between the two to play for the Pens down the stretch, I'd pick Guentzel and send Sprong back to juniors, let him finish the season with the baby Pens and then make the team out of camp next year.

As for trading Wilson, unless he's packaged, I don't think he's bringing back any upgrade on D.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Guentzel is likely more NHL ready than Sprong. I'm sure Guentzel could get better in the AHL, but so could Sprong (unfortunately he can't go there). Guentzel also fills a bigger need (top 6 left wing). If I had to pick between the two to play for the Pens down the stretch, I'd pick Guentzel and send Sprong back to juniors, let him finish the season with the baby Pens and then make the team out of camp next year.

I do think Guentzel is probably more NHL ready, but at the same time, keeping Guentzel in the AHL while playing Sprong in the NHL gives the Pens control over both of them for this season. Sprong not being able to stay in the AHL beyond 2 weeks is a part of the reason I'd keep him up over Guentzel. I'd rather have both up though.

As for trading Wilson, unless he's packaged, I don't think he's bringing back any upgrade on D.

Wilson by himself doesn't, but does Wilson and Maatta get the attention of Calgary for Hamilton? Their forward depth is pretty crappy. Or does Wilson plus Cole bring back a Dumoulin-lite #4D?

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I'd personally run with:

Sheary-Crosby-Hornqvist
Kunitz-Malkin-Kessel
Hagelin-Bonino-Sprong
Rust-Cullen-Fehr
Kuhnhackl

I'd rather get rid of Kunitz and put Guentzel in the lineup too, but that's not realistic to happen. This is assuming Sprong doesn't show any rust in his AHL conditioning assignment and he shows he's a NHL caliber player though, that should be again noted. It's not like the Pens are in a rush to send him down, giving him 2 weeks in the AHL and then a 2 weeks in the NHL to figure out where he's at wouldn't be a problem.

Switch Kessel and Sprong and I agree, but my ideal lineup barring trades has Sprong and Guentzel.

But Kunitz is the Teflon Don so.

 

[Peat]

It's literally as if he missed the entire 2016 Cup run.



I disagree. I'm Empoleon on this one. I've harped on Rust for a couple games now. He's on the 2nd line with Malkin and his is not producing. Speed speed speed yes I get it but at the end of the day hockey games are won on the scoreboard and he's done little to contribute to that.

How many games has Rust been with Malkin this season? I thought the game against Toronto was his first. Pretty sure he's been on a line with Bonino - who's certainly been doing no one any favours.

 

[billybudd]

Is Sprong on the 4th line better than Kuhn? He'd score more, but Kuhn is someone we clearly trust on the ice for important D zone situations. Plus the PKing.

Yah. Job of Cullen's wing is to block shots, forecheck and occasionally pitch in on offense. That's not who Sprong is.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

I do think Guentzel is probably more NHL ready, but at the same time, keeping Guentzel in the AHL while playing Sprong in the NHL gives the Pens control over both of them for this season. Sprong not being able to stay in the AHL beyond 2 weeks is a part of the reason I'd keep him up over Guentzel. I'd rather have both up though.



Wilson by himself doesn't, but does Wilson and Maatta get the attention of Calgary for Hamilton? Their forward depth is pretty crappy. Or does Wilson plus Cole bring back a Dumoulin-lite #4D?

Are you ignoring that being thrown into the NHL after this much time off and so little experience could **** with his confidence or lead to another injury?

 

[mpp9]

Rust and Sheary have been great this season. I'd argue they've outplayed many of the vet forwards.

 

[Penske]

I would rather he go on the 3rd line and send someone like Rust to the 4th line.

Sheary-Sid-Horny
Kunitz-Malkin-Kessel
Hagelin-Bones-Sprong
Rust-Cully-Fehr

Difference between Sprong and Guentzel is that Guentzel can be sent up and down on a moments notice. We don't get that luxury with Sprong. Once he goes back, poof, he's gone. I'd rather test him a bit to see how he responds first.

Fair enough to give him a conditioning stint but I see it very unlikely that Sprong will be kept up. It's pretty unrealistic that a 19 year old with little experience who would have come of a 7-8 month injury can step into the NHL. It'd be great if he could but I just can't see it. Look forward to seeing him next year though.

 

[Riptide]

I loved that he was basically like Murray, Letang, and Crosby with how hard he works and serious he is about the game and his development, but I'm not seeing the fruits of that labor yet and yes he's still very very young as a defenseman, but you can't play that card forever, you might get shafted with a Luke Schenn situation then.

Then you run into the issue of market, Olli just won a Stanley Cup, the gloss hasn't worn off of him just yet with his Finland showing as well in the Olympics and various other good things he's been able to do. So if the Pens wanted to move him and get the right fit player closer to him in age, now is the time.

How did Toronto get "shafted"? They got JVR out of it. I could handle getting "shafted" like that.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Are you ignoring that being thrown into the NHL after this much time off and so little experience could **** with his confidence or lead to another injury?

A. He'd be playing for 2 weeks in the AHL before he would be playing in the NHL.
B. He'd only be playing in the NHL if he shows he's capable of playing in the NHL.
C. If he sucks, then the Pens send him down to the Q and lose basically nothing.
D. Sprong can get hurt by playing in the Q or in the AHL just like he could get hurt in the NHL. Saying "he might get hurt" is an extremely weak argument to sending him down.

I don't buy the "his confidence will be shot" argument either. The dude has already played in 18 NHL games and was on the roster for like 35 games. If he sucks, you send him back down to the Q. He simply won't be up nearly long enough to play himself into having no confidence. If he ends up in the NHL in this scenario, it's because he played well enough to justify him being in the NHL. He's not going to be in the NHL if he's struggling or if he's being physically overmatched.

The arguments against keeping Sprong up that are being made in here are basically "what if he sucks?". No one is saying that Sprong should be kept up regardless of how well he plays. He should only stay up if he earns it, sending him down based on him needing to get back into game shape is nonsensical if he doesn't need that.

 

[Riptide]

dude's gonna be back folks.

I said this summer that it's a strong possibility. And unfortunately, I don't think the kids (to date) outside of Sheary (really small sample size) have done enough to change that yet.

I really don't see the Penguins re-signing Kunitz, even if he wants to stick around. The Pens have a ton of young forwards that should be in the NHL, I really don't see Sullivan advocating re-signing Kunitz when all of Wilson, Rust, Sheary, Kuhnhackl, Sundqvist, Guentzel and Sprong should be getting regular minutes next year.

"Being in the NHL" isn't the same thing as being productive top 6/9 forwards. Lets dissect the list you provided.

Wilson: 4 pts in 14 games (that came over a 5 game span), with his 3 most frequently partners (F) being Hornqvist, Cullen and Crosby.
Rust: 4 pts in 12 games, with Bonino, Hagelin and Wilson being his most frequent partners (F).
Sheary: 8 pts in 8 games, with points coming in 6 of those games. Really small sample size. Most frequent partners are: Cullen, Kunitz, Hornqvist.
Kuhnhackl: 2 pts in 10 games, was a HS for what... 3-5 games?
Sundqvist: 10 pts in 12 AHL games, will probably push for NHL icetime at some point this season. But really needs to work on his offensive game. I think it's safe to say most see him as a 3rd/4th line type player.
Guentzel: 13 pts in 13 AHL games. Will probably push for NHL icetime this season. Offensive game will likely be there, but will still probably need some size. Probably an offensive top 6/9 winger if his game translates to the NHL.
Sprong: Will have missed most of this season due to offseason injury. I'm not sure how anyone can say that he "should be getting regular minutes next season" before we even have a chance to see him in camp. If anything, he'll need time in the minors to round out his game after missing half a season this year to do so. And while I also like what he brought many nights he was here last season... he also to an extent reminds me of Bennett. Looks great on the ice, but could never translate that "looks good - sometimes even great" into offensive production. MJ reign and all that... but we need to see a LOT more of him before penciling him in anywhere.

So now... looking at that list... I see Sheary (using an 8 game sample size) and hopefully Guentzel who may be able to produce offensively in a top 9 role going forward. Rust is very good and useful at what he does, but will not do much offensively. Right now Wilson and Kuhnhackl while useful bottom 6 NHLers, are not likely guys management would hang their hats on for doing much other then being bottom 6 depth. And one would think that after what we saw with Bennett for years, that there would be some caution before anointing Sprong. So if management has faith in Sheary (or he proves himself this year), add in Kessel, Hornqvist and Hagelin, that leaves 2 spots open in the top 9 (assuming we're looking solely at the winger spots and not what may happen with Bonino). Do you really think that if Rutherford has the cap space, that he would go into next season depending on Guentzel to hold an important spot, with little behind him to take his place if he needs some more time?

This is why my opinion on this hasn't changed. Unless 2 of Wilson, Sheary, Guentzel or the other kids step up to the point that there's little question about them being able to handle a top 6/9 offensive role, I think there's a strong possibility that Kunitz could get an extension. Especially as we will likely be losing one of those guys in the expansion draft. Maybe they take Bonino/Daley/Pouliot/Schultz, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

 

[Shady Machine]

I said this summer that it's a strong possibility. And unfortunately, I don't think the kids (to date) outside of Sheary (really small sample size) have done enough to change that yet.

Yes you did and I think we all blew up at you.

 

[Beauner]

I don't think Kunitz coming back is guaranteed at all. Letting him walk could let us re-sign Bonino, and Dumo is in for a big raise as well. You're telling me JR is really gonna waste money on him?

Not to mention we already have a bunch of depth, some of which can't even get in the lineup now. That's not including Sprong and Guentzel. Rip, those guys may not be producing now but they look far from out of place in this league. It's still early in the season. After last year, I think this organization isn't deathly afraid to let the kids run wild anymore. I can't imagine bringing Kunitz back is a serious possibility.

 

[Riptide]

Sheary has played too well this year to justify not protecting him IMO. His ability to provide scoring in a depth role is really valuable. He'll become redundant when Guentzel and Sprong establish themselves, but he's extremely useful until then. I just don't see the Pens keeping Guentzel in the minors for next season and that basically pushes Kunitz out of the lineup, regardless of what happens after.

Even if that's the case, I don't think anyone is going to complain about having too many top 9 skilled wingers. Not to mention that A) we do not know when that will be, and B) that even when that likely happens, we still have other positions that may (or may not) have changed. Hornqvist will need a new contract in a couple of years and Hagelin the year after that.

Until someone actually steps up and makes Sheary redundant, he isn't redundant. But I agree that nothing we've seen from Wilson/Kuhnhackl make it worth leaving Sheary unprotected. I think the bigger question will be what happens with Bonino. It's pretty easy for us to say "sign him after the draft but before FA", but I can easily see Rutherford (and even other GMs in the same position) deciding not to wait. In that situation you're left with the decision of choosing 1 of Sheary/Rust. And if Sheary continues with the type of season he's currently having (lets say he finishes with 40+ pts)... that's a pretty tough choice.

 

[Riptide]

what's the deal with free agents and the expansion? Can we just sign Bonino right after the expansion draft but before free agency starts up?

Absolutely. However, LV gets to talk to him for a couple days prior to making their selection, and thus could sign him during that time (in which case NB would be their PIT selection). There's also risk for the player and the team. For PIT, there's risk A) he'll change his mind or get a better offer. For NB, there's risk that the deal he might sign today won't be there then, or that he could have a horrible season or that he could suffer a career ending injury.

There's a lot to be said for "certainty" for both sides that would come with Bonino signing a contract prior to the draft.

 

[Riptide]

Oh yeah, that Vegas team could be legit really fast if they play their cards right and get lucky. If they get either Fleury or Bishop in net plus Burns or Shattenkirk on defense, they'll be really good immediately. A defense with Shattenkirk, Scandella (Minnesota), Manson (Anaheim), Klein (NYR), Braun (San Jose if they re-sign Burns) and de Hann (NYI) and Bishop and Korpisalo (CBJ) in net is a playoff team immediately.

Not even close. I think its safe to say that their blueline and probably their goalie will be pretty good by most standards. But the west is a very tough conference, and the odds of their forward group being even close to good enough to score enough goals to make them a playoff team is slim. I mean just look at who they will have to beat to make the playoffs. It's either CHI, DAL, STL, NSH and 1 of WPG/MIN or SJ, ANA, LA, EDM and then still the 4th/5th best from the other division.

Unless every single thing goes perfect for them next season, the odds of them making the playoffs is slim. Sustaining that into their 2nd season is even slimmer.

 

[Riptide]

His ELC was initiated last year. This year counts towards his ELC. He can not go to the AHL. It's NHL or Juniors for him. They do not "need" to keep him but once he goes back to Juniors, that's it - he's there for the year. Either way, it burns a year of his ELC. Which means next year is his last ELC year.

Can't this year of his ELC slide if he's sent back to juniors for the season?

 

[Empoleon8771]

Can't this year of his ELC slide if he's sent back to juniors for the season?

Again, no. His ELC started already, meaning that he can't slide it any further. You don't slide years with your ELC, you slide when the contract starts.

Until someone actually steps up and makes Sheary redundant, he isn't redundant.

That is literally exactly what I said.

 

[Shady Machine]

That is literally exactly what I said.

I'm still not sure why Sheary would be redundant when Guentz and Sprong establish themselves:

Guentzel-Crosby-Hornqvist
Rust-Malkin-Sprong
Hagelin-Bones/3C-Kessel
Kuhn/Wilson-Sundqvist-Sheary

Sheary has shown he can make an impact on any line when he's on his game. Until he prices himself out or proves he's not one of the best 13 forwards, I see no reason to move on from him.

 

[Riptide]

I highly doubt they include Brouwer who just signed there in the off season.

I'd do:

Maatta, MAF, 3rd

for

Hamilton, Johnson, Klimchuk. Johnson or Elliot...Calgary's pick.

Calgary has their own cap issues. There's no way they could take 9.75m without sending back at least 8.75m off their roster. Hamilton and Elliott only make 8.25m, and unless they toss in someone who's cheap (Chiasson, etc) who's fairly meaningless, they do not have anyone making much of anything that they could send the other way who's a UFA this summer. There's also the real possibility that they would want us to take back some salary with term.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I'm still not sure why Sheary would be redundant when Guentz and Sprong establish themselves:

Guentzel-Crosby-Hornqvist
Rust-Malkin-Sprong
Hagelin-Bones/3C-Kessel
Kuhn/Wilson-Sundqvist-Sheary

Sheary has shown he can make an impact on any line when he's on his game. Until he prices himself out or proves he's not one of the best 13 forwards, I see no reason to move on from him.

The issue with having Sheary on the 4th line is similar to the issues that other people were saying they had with Sprong on the 4th line. Does Sheary fit with Sundqvist and Kuhnhackl? I don't really know, especially when Fehr will still be here next year. Sheary isn't a guy you play on a defensive line and Sundqvist isn't a guy you play on an offensive line.

Also, relevant to Fleury:




It would actually be kinda hilarious if Fleury didn't need to be protected and all of this hysteria was for nothing

So between 65-70 players that have to be autoprotected in the expansion draft. However, there are more than 70 players with NMCs in the NHL. In the NHL right now, there are 80 players with a NMC of some sort, whether it be purely a NMC or a NTC plus a NMC. When you account for career ending injuries, that brings that list down to 75 (takes out Umberger, Clarkson, Pronger, Clowe and Horton). When you take out pending UFAs, that brings the list down to 66 (Ference, Bishop, Datsyuk, Thornton, Marleau, Wideman, Fisher, Doan and Campbell). That falls right around where LeBrun's tweet is saying, meaning that Fleury does need to be protected. It would have been funny had he not needed to be protected, but it seems like he does.

 

[Riptide]

You think that determination can be made in two weeks? I don't. I'm not against him doing the conditioning assignment, but I am against drawing hasty conclusions from it. You have to consider the negative of him coming up and sitting in the press box or being given 10 minutes a night by Sully. Is that really what is best for him?

I just don't see any reason to rush him. He's our most prized prospect, even above Pouliot. We have plenty of other good forwards who can come up and play if Rust, Kuhn etc falter.

While I agree with you, if he can do a 2 week conditioning stint, would he not still be able to have his 9 NHL game audition? And if he burns a year off his ELC regardless (and it doesn't slide), then aside from a development POV (with him not getting enough TOI or occasionally sitting), then there's little reason he needs to go back immediately - especially if he's going to get 10+ minutes a night.

That said, I see him getting sent back immediately, and honestly, that doesn't bother me too much. As others have pointed out, we have other options in case someone goes down with an injury.