Salary Cap: Roster-Building Pt. XX | A Fleury of Fehr Proposals (Contract + Cap Info in 1st Post)

[Empoleon8771]

You have to consider when he'll be getting those 10 minutes though. In jr he'll be getting prime 20+minutes, first pp, lots of offensive opportunities, maybe even pk. Here he'll get primarily 5v5 time, with *hopefully* 2nd pp unit time.

I would imagine he'd be getting 2nd PP time. I think the 2nd PP unit would be Kunitz, Bonino, Sprong, Daley and Schultz tbh. Him playing more in a worse league wouldn't help his development, especially defensively.

That´s unfair BS. Rust is easily an NHLer and should have a locked spot. Guy was money in the playoffs. He was playing very solid brand of hockey even before those playoffs. Right now, he is bringing it every night again. It´s not only about the production for Rust. he is the most consistent out of those guys. Sheary has the highest UPs and I like him very much too, but Rust is A LOCK for our lineup. Period.

Rust is neither producing or putting up good possession numbers. It really doesn't matter if he was money in the playoffs because his play this year has been underwhelming. He's been put in both top-9 roles and top-6 roles and he has produced basically nothing. At some point, just "looking good" isn't enough.

Even from watching him, I don't think he has played great this year either. He has had spurts and has played better than his production suggests, but he hasn't been consistent this year.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Winnipeg is not trading Trouba straight up for Maatta, even if JR offered that. They'd be absolute morons as Trouba is a clear step up in talent IMHO. I don't think either team sees those 2 differently at this point.

We'd have to add to Maatta to get Trouba back and depending on what that was, i'd be all for it.

 

[PensandCaps]

I would imagine he'd be getting 2nd PP time. I think the 2nd PP unit would be Kunitz, Bonino, Sprong, Daley and Schultz tbh. Him playing more in a worse league wouldn't help his development, especially defensively.



Rust is neither producing or putting up good possession numbers. It really doesn't matter if he was money in the playoffs because his play this year has been underwhelming. He's been put in both top-9 roles and top-6 roles and he has produced basically nothing. At some point, just "looking good" isn't enough.

Even from watching him, I don't think he has played great this year either. He has had spurts and has played better than his production suggests, but he hasn't been consistent this year.

rust has been noticeable every game. hes playing great. idk what your watching

 

[PensandCaps]

wonder if there is a hockey trade for hornqvist for a more skilled wing, hes useless at 5v5. hes gonna get 50 points just by being sids winger every game, but hes unimpressive to say the least at creating offense.

james neal.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

Keep whispering your sweet lies to me.

I'm just rehashing all of my posts from 2013-14 about the fear/impossibility of an impending Orpik extension. It's mostly for my own mental health.

 

[ColePens]

wonder if there is a hockey trade for hornqvist for a more skilled wing, hes useless at 5v5. hes gonna get 50 points just by being sids winger every game, but hes unimpressive to say the least at creating offense.

james neal.

Why would we go backwards? We don't have any player like Hornqvist on the team. He showed how valuable he was in the playoffs, on the powerplay, and how he can change a game with his tenacity.

Why would we want to lose a player like him who would leave an insane void in our lineup? I understand his game isn't pretty, but nobody should doubt #72 after what he has done for us.

 

[ColePens]

Rust is neither producing or putting up good possession numbers. It really doesn't matter if he was money in the playoffs because his play this year has been underwhelming. He's been put in both top-9 roles and top-6 roles and he has produced basically nothing. At some point, just "looking good" isn't enough.

Even from watching him, I don't think he has played great this year either. He has had spurts and has played better than his production suggests, but he hasn't been consistent this year.

Rust has been better than I would have expected and is a perfect 3rd wheel on a line like Geno's or Bonino's. He's been really good. Not just looking good, he's been really good. For what he makes and being part of that WBS crew, he's the most NHL ready of all of them.

 

[Will Hunting]

Rust has been better than I would have expected and is a perfect 3rd wheel on a line like Geno's or Bonino's. He's been really good. Not just looking good, he's been really good. For what he makes and being part of that WBS crew, he's the most NHL ready of all of them.

Thank you Cole.. and the other fella(pensandcaps) too. Empoleon is talking BS when it comes to Rust. Rust is a solid NHLer at this point.. Not sure what the guy is watching.. it´s sooo obvious that Rust is a good player, I don´t care about the Corsi in this case. I hate it..

 

[Empoleon8771]

Rust has been better than I would have expected and is a perfect 3rd wheel on a line like Geno's or Bonino's. He's been really good. Not just looking good, he's been really good. For what he makes and being part of that WBS crew, he's the most NHL ready of all of them.

I think his production would look better if Malkin and Bonino would be playing better at ES. Bonino has been atrocious at ES and Malkin has been poor at ES on the year. Still, I don't agree that he has looked "really good" on the year. He wouldn't be someone that I'd scratch, he has been better than both Kuhnhackl and Wilson. However, if Sprong comes back healthy and outplays Rust, there's no justification to send Sprong down to the Q and play Rust in the NHL. Rust simply hasn't been good enough where you can send Sprong down if Sprong outplays him.

 

[DesertPenguin]

Rust has been better than I would have expected and is a perfect 3rd wheel on a line like Geno's or Bonino's. He's been really good. Not just looking good, he's been really good. For what he makes and being part of that WBS crew, he's the most NHL ready of all of them.

Rusty is fine anywhere in the lineup as long as he is being asked to forcheck, dig pucks and generally create space for other players. You just can't be putting Kunitz and Rust together with Malkin and expect Geno to produce. He did the best he could in the playoffs, and considering Malkin was at half strength it made sense to maximize the other lines, but that is not a long term recipe for success.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I think his production would look better if Malkin and Bonino would be playing better at ES. Bonino has been atrocious at ES and Malkin has been poor at ES on the year. Still, I don't agree that he has looked "really good" on the year. He wouldn't be someone that I'd scratch, he has been better than both Kuhnhackl and Wilson. However, if Sprong comes back healthy and outplays Rust, there's no justification to send Sprong down to the Q and play Rust in the NHL. Rust simply hasn't been good enough where you can send Sprong down if Sprong outplays him.

Rust is a proven playoff performer and Sprong is a big question mark. Sullivan will go with his proven guy I'd imagine.

Sprong is in a crap situation. He can't play in the A and he is learning sloppy habits with the Isles that won't get fixed there. They want him to provide offense and he is given a lot of leeway to do his thing.

I have no clue how they can make this a productive year for him, aside from finding a spot on their NHL roster, which seems doubtful.

 

[wgknestrick]

I think his production would look better if Malkin and Bonino would be playing better at ES. Bonino has been atrocious at ES and Malkin has been poor at ES on the year. Still, I don't agree that he has looked "really good" on the year. He wouldn't be someone that I'd scratch, he has been better than both Kuhnhackl and Wilson. However, if Sprong comes back healthy and outplays Rust, there's no justification to send Sprong down to the Q and play Rust in the NHL. Rust simply hasn't been good enough where you can send Sprong down if Sprong outplays him.

You can't keep moving Sprong back and forth when he comes back. He either stays or goes until his Q season is over.

Rust has shown flashes of brilliance and is still right above the "top 6" 5v5 threshold of 1.6pts/60min. Bonino (Kessel too) have absolutely been terrible from a production perspective to date. Bones might just be injured though, and he won't keep shooting below 5%. They will start to go in for him. I still think Rust is (by far) not an area of current concern on this team. He needs minutes to improve and develop. Now is the time for those.

Sprong's NHL time is next season unless they make room for him via trade. We'll see if we can move Fehr and Kunitz for picks to make room or not.

 

[SEALBound]

Why would we go backwards? We don't have any player like Hornqvist on the team. He showed how valuable he was in the playoffs, on the powerplay, and how he can change a game with his tenacity.

Why would we want to lose a player like him who would leave an insane void in our lineup? I understand his game isn't pretty, but nobody should doubt #72 after what he has done for us.

It's literally as if he missed the entire 2016 Cup run.

Thank you Cole.. and the other fella(pensandcaps) too. Empoleon is talking BS when it comes to Rust. Rust is a solid NHLer at this point.. Not sure what the guy is watching.. it´s sooo obvious that Rust is a good player, I don´t care about the Corsi in this case. I hate it..

I disagree. I'm Empoleon on this one. I've harped on Rust for a couple games now. He's on the 2nd line with Malkin and his is not producing. Speed speed speed yes I get it but at the end of the day hockey games are won on the scoreboard and he's done little to contribute to that.

Now, I will admit that neither Malkin nor Kunitz are some ES wizards right now even though Malkin is a PPG. I will reserve complete judgement and admit that I believe Kunitz is killing that line more so than Rust. Both are 3rd wheel players AT BEST. If you run Rust-Malkin-Kessel, I think you may see something.

If Sprong came back and showed to be even slightly better than Rust, I would have zero qualms about sitting Rust. At this point, I think the battle of the youths is starting to become a clearer picture. Sheary is a PPG and works well with Sid so he stays. Kuhnhackl is a 4th liner that works well with Cullen. He's the 12/13th player but it will be 4th line duties in any case. The real discussion now is between Rust and Wilson and IMHO, it's those two that need to be rotating in and out with each other. Rust is fast but Wilson has a better ability to finish IMHO.

At this point though, given what I've seen, I wouldn't hate looking for another wing come December/January. As I've suggested before, I would love to send Wilson out with MAF/Maatta and get another comparable winger in return. I suggested Klimchuk in a deal that sends MAF or Maatta (or both) to Calgary in return for Hamilton.

Speaking of which, I'm wondering if the tire kicking happening now is due to JR potentially wanting to make a move for a dman when Pouliot returns from injury.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

Rust is a proven playoff performer and Sprong is a big question mark. Sullivan will go with his proven guy I'd imagine.

Sprong is in a crap situation. He can't play in the A and he is learning sloppy habits with the Isles that won't get fixed there. They want him to provide offense and he is given a lot of leeway to do his thing.

I have no clue how they can make this a productive year for him, aside from finding a spot on their NHL roster, which seems doubtful.

I doubt they can, the best they'll manage is rehabbing his shoulder properly and easing him back into playing. They'll probably have him join practices in a no contact jersey for awhile and that might do him some good. Maybe an AHL conditioning stint before being sent down.

Hopefully his junior team has a short season so he can go to WBS for as long as possible. Stupid ****ing rules.

 

[SEALBound]

Rust is a proven playoff performer and Sprong is a big question mark. Sullivan will go with his proven guy I'd imagine.

Sprong is in a crap situation. He can't play in the A and he is learning sloppy habits with the Isles that won't get fixed there. They want him to provide offense and he is given a lot of leeway to do his thing.

I have no clue how they can make this a productive year for him, aside from finding a spot on their NHL roster, which seems doubtful.

I understand your argument but a couple things:

1. This isn't the playoffs. It's the time of the RS that you can afford to experiment.

2. Rust was most certainly NOT a proven playoff performer this time last year. No more so than Sprong. How did Rust get that "status"? Sully gave him the chance. The same one Sprong would need.

3. 100% agree that Sprong is between a rock and a hard spot. Being hurt for 6+ months then trying to make your come back in the NHL after only a handful of games...that's a tall order for the kid. I think the 2 week conditioning stint in the AHL will tell us what we need to know. That being the case, Wilson can be sent down to the AHL to get playing time.

 

[Empoleon8771]

You can't keep moving Sprong back and forth when he comes back. He either stays or goes until his Q season is over.

Who's talking about shuttling him around? I'd give him a 2 week conditioning assignment in the AHL and if he looks good, I'd give him a look in the NHL. If he plays poorly in the AHL or gets outplayed by the other young guys, I'd return him to the Q.

Rust is a proven playoff performer and Sprong is a big question mark. Sullivan will go with his proven guy I'd imagine.

Sprong is in a crap situation. He can't play in the A and he is learning sloppy habits with the Isles that won't get fixed there. They want him to provide offense and he is given a lot of leeway to do his thing.

I have no clue how they can make this a productive year for him, aside from finding a spot on their NHL roster, which seems doubtful.

Personally, I'm leaning towards trading Wilson and giving Wilson's spot to Sprong. That all depends on how Sprong looks on his conditioning assignment though. I think a pretty ideal lineup has Rust and Sprong battling for the 2nd line RW spot and the loser playing on the 4th line, assuming Sprong is playing well. And yes, Sprong playing on the 4th line with Cullen is better than him playing in the Q.

 

[Riptide]

Maatta is the only player in our top 4 that I am concerned with to any serious degree. I wasn't through most of last year, but its gone on long enough now that I just have to wonder. Again, I don't want to dump him or anything. But if guys like Hamilton or Trouba are on the table, I am taking the safe bet and getting rid of the guy with a career's worth of health problems in the last year.

I think that's the politest way of putting it. Maatta might recover fully and be a top 3D in the NHL. Or what we see now is what we'll get for the next 6 years.

 

[Riptide]

Disagree that it would take "a series of moves" for a Fleury trade to improve the team. Fleury to Dallas for Niemi (to back up Murray) plus a draft pick, and then use the cap space at the deadline to add depth. That's two relatively minor moves where, IMO, the end result is a much better club.

How much of that cap space do we really see? We're into LTIR space. Which means we don't really have "cap space", nor would we see much - even if we gained 1.25m (and we wouldn't even see all of that because we're already into the season and the longer it takes to make a move like that, the less of that cap space we'd get). I mean even if we traded Fehr (unlikely), and received a player back at 50%, we wouldn't be able to afford someone making much more than 4-4.5m. Even that might be a stretch - and would be the longer we wait.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I understand your argument but a couple things:

1. This isn't the playoffs. It's the time of the RS that you can afford to experiment.

2. Rust was most certainly NOT a proven playoff performer this time last year. No more so than Sprong. How did Rust get that "status"? Sully gave him the chance. The same one Sprong would need.

3. 100% agree that Sprong is between a rock and a hard spot. Being hurt for 6+ months then trying to make your come back in the NHL after only a handful of games...that's a tall order for the kid. I think the 2 week conditioning stint in the AHL will tell us what we need to know. That being the case, Wilson can be sent down to the AHL to get playing time.

Ya, but you can't make Sullivan forget what he saw Rust do during the playoffs. He would have to really fall off of a cliff to lose his spot.

I want Sprong in the lineup and fear his play away from the puck will keep regressing the longer he is in juniors, but unless injuries hit he may be back with the Isles.

Who's talking about shuttling him around? I'd give him a 2 week conditioning assignment in the AHL and if he looks good, I'd give him a look in the NHL. If he plays poorly in the AHL or gets outplayed by the other young guys, I'd return him to the Q.

Personally, I'm leaning towards trading Wilson and giving Wilson's spot to Sprong. That all depends on how Sprong looks on his conditioning assignment though. I think a pretty ideal lineup has Rust and Sprong battling for the 2nd line RW spot and the loser playing on the 4th line, assuming Sprong is playing well. And yes, Sprong playing on the 4th line with Cullen is better than him playing in the Q.

I've already made it known multiple times how I feel about Wilson. He isn't an impact NHL player in my eyes, and Guenztel should have had that spot.

So whatever is done with him, so be it.

But even with Wilson out of the picture, someone else has to sit for Sprong to get in the lineup.

 

[Riptide]

Deals that size never go down. Three player swaps.

I think JR keeps Fleury until Fleury's agent causes a distraction due to playing time.

He probably keeps Kunitz for the stretch run. And pray he has full say on letting him walk. Can't see him re-signing 14 unless he's pressured.

I'm fine with moving Maatta if the return is there. I don't like his fit in our system. He looked his best on the West Coast trip where he was facing teams that mostly cycle.

I could easily see him re-signing him without being "pressured". All it would take is crappy FA options (which is almost certain after looking at next summers FAs), and not having faith in the kids stepping up. We need 2 of Wilson, Rust, Sheary, Kuhnhackl and Guentzel (or someone else) to show they're good top 6/9 options who will help this team offensively next season. So far Wilson has been a disappointment and Kuhnhackl is looking more like a 4th line guy. Because if the season ends right now, do you really think that Rutherford will go into next season with those 5 taking up 2 of our top 6 winger spots? Kunitz if he has a decent season (by his standards, not ours) will be seen as a safety valve. Someone who's a known quantity, who's a "winner" and a "leader" and who everyone knows and is comfortable with.

I don't think he'd be stupid enough to offer 2 years, but Kunitz getting an extension wouldn't surprise me in the least. Unless the kids step up to the point where you can't see where he'd fit. And unfortunately for us, they haven't done that to date.

 

[Riptide]

I've never been a gigantic fan of Dougie Hamilton. Jay Bouwmeester redux, IMO. Good...not great.

Trouba is a special type of defenseman.

JBo is a very good #3D. I'd be overjoyed to have someone like that on my team.

 

[SEALBound]

I think that's the politest way of putting it. Maatta might recover fully and be a top 3D in the NHL. Or what we see now is what we'll get for the next 6 years.

And as much as I like Maatta, he's not wrong. We all know skating is an issue with Maatta. It was even an issue in his sensational rookie year. He made up for it with IQ and gap control. In this fast paced system that makes us so deadly, his skating becomes more and more of an issue. He still has really good value though. Value right there with Trouba and Hamilton. A swap of any would be good for us IMHO. Would hope for Trouba but would be just for Hamilton.

Maatta for Trouba
MAF+ for Hamilton

Dumoulin-Letang
Hamilton-Trouba
Cole-Daley
Pouliot-Schultz

For Daley to someone for a middle 6 wing. Damn. And the cap works too

 

[Empoleon8771]

I've already made it known multiple times how I feel about Wilson. He isn't an impact NHL player in my eyes, and Guenztel should have had that spot.

So whatever is done with him, so be it.

But even with Wilson out of the picture, someone else has to sit for Sprong to get in the lineup.

I'd personally run with:

Sheary-Crosby-Hornqvist
Kunitz-Malkin-Kessel
Hagelin-Bonino-Sprong
Rust-Cullen-Fehr
Kuhnhackl

I'd rather get rid of Kunitz and put Guentzel in the lineup too, but that's not realistic to happen. This is assuming Sprong doesn't show any rust in his AHL conditioning assignment and he shows he's a NHL caliber player though, that should be again noted. It's not like the Pens are in a rush to send him down, giving him 2 weeks in the AHL and then a 2 weeks in the NHL to figure out where he's at wouldn't be a problem.

 

[Shady Machine]

wonder if there is a hockey trade for hornqvist for a more skilled wing, hes useless at 5v5. hes gonna get 50 points just by being sids winger every game, but hes unimpressive to say the least at creating offense.

james neal.

Stop trying to trade Hornqvist. He's so important to this team.

 

[Shady Machine]

Who's talking about shuttling him around? I'd give him a 2 week conditioning assignment in the AHL and if he looks good, I'd give him a look in the NHL. If he plays poorly in the AHL or gets outplayed by the other young guys, I'd return him to the Q.



Personally, I'm leaning towards trading Wilson and giving Wilson's spot to Sprong. That all depends on how Sprong looks on his conditioning assignment though. I think a pretty ideal lineup has Rust and Sprong battling for the 2nd line RW spot and the loser playing on the 4th line, assuming Sprong is playing well. And yes, Sprong playing on the 4th line with Cullen is better than him playing in the Q.

Why trade depth when you don't have to?