Roberto Luongo

[Big Phil]

If I had to choose two from the 90s, it would be Barrasso and Beezer, with CuJo being right up there.

The bolded - I always thought I was the only one who thought this.

Richter I really don't think has a good case. Short career for one (666 GP), highest vein finish was 3rd and that was in a season here he played only 45 games (3.12 GAA and .903 SV% .... how doe stat get a top 3 nomination? ) he never placed higher than 4th in AST voting and really benefitted from being on a very good team.

Beezer just didn't win a Cup.
Richter won more, but I'm not sure how/why:

Both of Richter's biggest victories came sort of at the expense of Beezer. The 1994 Cup run was amazing and the Rangers had just cut Beezer loose before that. So Richter won when Beezer wasn't able to. There is more to it than that of course but even a non-Ranger fan can get nostalgic about 1994 and that run the Rangers did. It was one for the ages and Richter was just incredible and made some saves at critical moments (Bure's penalty shot, Game 7 overtime vs. New Jersey, late Game 7 vs. Canucks). He just gets a lot of credit for that, and rightly so.

The other one is the 1996 World Cup. Beezer I believe was waiting on a contract at the time and in all honesty the Americans probably would have picked him as the #1 guy since he had just come off a blazing run in 1996. Instead they had Richter as their go-to guy and the rest is history. It took me a long time as a Canadian to appreciate what Richter did in the World Cup that year but he just literally broke our hearts. Game 3 of that World Cup had some eye popping saves that you just couldn't believe. This, along with 1994, are his shining moments.

I'm not sure either one of them should quite get into the HHOF, but if you prefer Richter over Beezer it probably has something to do with 1994 and 1996.

 

[Hawksfan2828]

I think there should have been one or two goalies elected to the HHOF from the 1990s. I know someone posted a list as to how many goalies were selected in the HHOF during the 1960s, but I think a lot of that was just backlog. Guys like Worters and Benedict from the 1920s and 1930s were finally getting in then. The voting process was a little less sophisticated. However, I just don't understand how one of: Vernon, Barrasso, Joseph, Moog, Liut, etc. haven't gotten in. Not to mention Vachon's still surprising omission from the 1970s. I don't think all of those guys are HHOFers, but can we all agree that we'd all at least pick ONE of them in there? I know the era was dominated with 4 goalies more or less in the 1990s but if they aren't inducting those guys (or Osgood, who I wouldn't put in myself) then who is next? Brodeur obviously right away, but if they keep the status quo we could be honestly waiting until Lundqvist retires before we get a "for sure" goalie in there. This could be 2025 for all we know.

Tim Thomas and Luongo will be eligible before Lundqvist but Thomas has too short of a peak and Luongo for some reason gets a bad reputation.

Of the goalies playing right now the best bets are Fleury, Price, Crawford and Quick. Miller doesn't make it by any means. Lundqvist is a lock. Lots of work needs to be done for the other 4 though. None of them get in today if they retired. Price is your best bet though. But this is a long ways.

Well of course the 90's and 00's era was loaded with HOF goalies.. Belfour, Hasek, Roy, Brodeur etc... Of course there were guys like Potvin and Cujo..

This era just seems bland, and I don't understand why Luongo gets so much consideration - Corey Crawford has similar career numbers outside of wins - but Crow still has plenty left.. I'm not even trying to be a homer here either, Crow isn't even considered a top 10 goalie in the NHL...

The only goalie with a shot of making the HOF from this era is Lundqvist..

IMO, when it is all said and done Quick and Crawford have a better chance than Luongo tho.. Each have 2 cups... I think Luongo gets a bad rap because he is a perennial choker that played on some elite teams in Vancouver - that and he lacks the hardware... Very similar to Liut..

I don't see him (or any goalie from this era with the exception of Lundqvist) getting in unless the HHOF is forced to pick a goalie every other year..

 

[Voight]

Well of course the 90's and 00's era was loaded with HOF goalies.. Belfour, Hasek, Roy, Brodeur etc... Of course there were guys like Potvin and Cujo..

This era just seems bland, and I don't understand why Luongo gets so much consideration - Corey Crawford has similar career numbers outside of wins - but Crow still has plenty left.. I'm not even trying to be a homer here either, Crow isn't even considered a top 10 goalie in the NHL...

The only goalie with a shot of making the HOF from this era is Lundqvist..

IMO, when it is all said and done Quick and Crawford have a better chance than Luongo tho.. Each have 2 cups... I think Luongo gets a bad rap because he is a perennial choker that played on some elite teams in Vancouver - that and he lacks the hardware... Very similar to Liut..

I don't see him (or any goalie from this era with the exception of Lundqvist) getting in unless the HHOF is forced to pick a goalie every other year..

Two Cups hasn't helped Tom Barrasso AND he has a Vezina.

 

[Czech Your Math]

Two Cups hasn't helped Tom Barrasso AND he has a Vezina.

Yeah and not just a fluke Vezina with nothing else close. He was second 3 times (including close behind Belfour) and was third to Hasek & Brodeur.

 

[Ishdul]

Barrasso is a pretty special case. Based on his resume he really should be a no doubter.

My issues with that assessment of Luongo are...
1. Besides wins/shutouts/etc., where Luongo does have a big lead over Crawford and is among the career leaders, all the goalies stats we use are rate stats which is much different than how we evaluate skaters. Luongo has been really good for 3x the length as Crawford has now and the rate stats include his early years when he was playing at age 20 and starting regularly at age 21 and more recent years in his mid 30's where he's been a little worse. Crawford's stats are all his age 26 to 30 seasons.
2. Goalie stats in general are wonky to evaluate on. GAA is very team oriented and keeps going down league wide, save percentage is a little better but hardly perfect and keeps going up, wins have been heavily affected by OTLs and Shootouts. Luongo's year-to-year rankings are very strong, if you want to go by that, but I think moreso than the other positions it's best to go by how they were seen
3. When we talk about peak play, Luongo had a year where he finished 2nd in the Hart voting, 2 years where he was nominated for the LBP/Lindsay, 3 Vezina nominations and was a top 2 option on Team Canada in 2004, 2006, 2010 and 2014. If Crawford does most of that then he would be a very different case. I think it's fair to say that Luongo was considered a star/superstar in his best years, which is not how Crawford has been considered so far.

I also don't know where you're going by saying only Lundqvist will be considered, it's way too early to make those kinds of declarations. I mean, Price just won enough hardware to give him an interesting resume no matter what happens and is still pretty young and in a position to both add quickly and put up top notch career numbers, you really think it's impossible he gets consideration when all is said and done? Or if Quick eventally does put up another elite season and hangs on for a long time? What if Rinne remains a top goalie for another 5 years? Or Rask keeps up his career numbers and wins another Vezina?

I also think it's a bit telling that you say the 90's/2000's was loaded with HOF goalies and yet you list all of 4 in the span of 20 years. That seems like a very low total.

 

[Doctor No]

Part of Barrasso's issue is that he wasn't exactly friendly with the people who now are tasked with determining his case.

 

[livewell68]

Part of Barrasso's issue is that he wasn't exactly friendly with the people who now are tasked with determining his case.

From what I gather, he was one of the all-time jerks of the NHL.

Barasso should get in ultimately and I think Luongo will as well once he retires.

 

[Big Phil]

Part of Barrasso's issue is that he wasn't exactly friendly with the people who now are tasked with determining his case.

Yeah I know, that`s the problem here, politics came into play. It is hard to imagine if he is friendly like Brodeur that he is still waiting on the outside.

Well of course the 90's and 00's era was loaded with HOF goalies.. Belfour, Hasek, Roy, Brodeur etc... Of course there were guys like Potvin and Cujo..

This era just seems bland, and I don't understand why Luongo gets so much consideration - Corey Crawford has similar career numbers outside of wins - but Crow still has plenty left.. I'm not even trying to be a homer here either, Crow isn't even considered a top 10 goalie in the NHL...

The only goalie with a shot of making the HOF from this era is Lundqvist..

IMO, when it is all said and done Quick and Crawford have a better chance than Luongo tho.. Each have 2 cups... I think Luongo gets a bad rap because he is a perennial choker that played on some elite teams in Vancouver - that and he lacks the hardware... Very similar to Liut..

I don't see him (or any goalie from this era with the exception of Lundqvist) getting in unless the HHOF is forced to pick a goalie every other year..

People forget the really good years Luongo had. 2004 comes to mind, 2007 as well. This was a goalie getting Hart votes at a pretty high level. If he doesn't get in then neither should the Sedins. There is a very short list of goalies who seem like HHOFers in the last decade, but Luongo has got to be one of them.

 

[EpochLink]

IMO Luongo will be in the Hall of Fame just for the fact he was a top goaltender for many years (400+ wins).
2004 and 2007 stick out where he was just unstoppable in terms his consistency.

The 2007-2012 era for Luongo is tons of hits and misses, the big miss was that 2011 Final plus 2 years prior of mental shutdown against the Hawks were he just frowned down and was a super constant target in terms of fans and media for his mental game.

For me, my legacy for him was game six against Boston...he just completely lost it.

 

[Voight]

IMO Luongo will be in the Hall of Fame just for the fact he was a top goaltender for many years (400+ wins).
2004 and 2007 stick out where he was just unstoppable in terms his consistency.

The 2007-2012 era for Luongo is tons of hits and misses, the big miss was that 2011 Final plus 2 years prior of mental shutdown against the Hawks were he just frowned down and was a super constant target in terms of fans and media for his mental game.

For me, my legacy for him was game six against Boston...he just completely lost it.

He played as well as he could have in 2011 (well maybe not quite) the entire team pretty much collapsed around him. Didn't help that their moral was shot when Raymond had his back misconfigured.

 

[Hawksfan2828]

Luongo isn't getting in unless the powers that be feel they need to put a goalie in the HOF, however if that was the case it would be Lundqvist.

IMO, the forward classes of this generation will certainly keep him out..

Besides, Luongo would just add to the slippery HOF slope we already have... "If A is good enough then B has to be, so of course we have to consider C"...

 

[Voight]

Luongo isn't getting in unless the powers that be feel they need to put a goalie in the HOF, however if that was the case it would be Lundqvist.

IMO, the forward classes of this generation will certainly keep him out..

Besides, Luongo would just add to the slippery HOF slope we already have... "If A is good enough then B has to be, so of course we have to consider C"...

Dont understand what you have against Luongo. He's the second best of his generation after Brodeur.

 

[Doctor No]

Luongo'd be in if I were in charge.

Top 25 regular season goals prevented above replacement level, 1952-53 through 2014-15:

GOALTENDER | GAR
Esposito|877.2
Roy|867.0
Hasek|711.7
Plante|685.0
Brodeur|664.4
Luongo|647.5
Hall|646.6
Worsley|572.5
Vanbiesbrouck|572.1
Joseph|562.9
Belfour|537.0
Parent|536.1
Smith|518.2
Dryden|500.6
Bower|491.9
Vokoun|479.5
Lundqvist|446.8
Hrudey|433.6
Burke|429.8
Barrasso|423.4
Resch|421.0
Bouchard|413.8
Moog|399.4
Hextall|398.5
Richter|383.2

(Sawchuk gets hurt by a lack of data 1951-52 and earlier. These are also save percentage based, so to the extent that Luongo benefitted from shot overcounting, he looks good here to that degree. Nevertheless, Luongo has a nice case.)

 

[Elvis P]

... I'll say at least around 500 wins when it's all said and done. (he's at 308 counting this year...) I think he could maybe get in with less, but that's around what I think I'd expect. I sure as hell hope he can do all that, but it'll be tough; he isn't under 30 anymore.

This is just silly. There are only 2 goalies with 500 wins. I guess we should kick out everyone except Brodeur and Roy.

 

[Elvis P]

Luongo'd be in if I were in charge. Top 25 regular season goals prevented above replacement level, 1952-53 through 2014-15: ...

It's nice to see that hockey has learned from baseball how to use stats.

 

[MXD]

Luongo'd be in if I were in charge.

Top 25 regular season goals prevented above replacement level, 1952-53 through 2014-15:

GOALTENDER | GAR
Esposito|877.2
Roy|867.0
Hasek|711.7
Plante|685.0
Brodeur|664.4
Luongo|647.5
Hall|646.6
Worsley|572.5
Vanbiesbrouck|572.1
Joseph|562.9
Belfour|537.0
Parent|536.1
Smith|518.2
Dryden|500.6
Bower|491.9
Vokoun|479.5
Lundqvist|446.8
Hrudey|433.6
Burke|429.8
Barrasso|423.4
Resch|421.0
Bouchard|413.8
Moog|399.4
Hextall|398.5
Richter|383.2

(Sawchuk gets hurt by a lack of data 1951-52 and earlier. These are also save percentage based, so to the extent that Luongo benefitted from shot overcounting, he looks good here to that degree. Nevertheless, Luongo has a nice case.)

....Is it me or GAR would have the necessary effect of overrating goalies who played in a high-scoring era? (sorry if that seems like a 4th grade question...)

 

[Big Phil]

Luongo isn't getting in unless the powers that be feel they need to put a goalie in the HOF, however if that was the case it would be Lundqvist.

IMO, the forward classes of this generation will certainly keep him out..

Besides, Luongo would just add to the slippery HOF slope we already have... "If A is good enough then B has to be, so of course we have to consider C"...

Keep in mind, these "forwards" you might be talking about could be the Sedins. Let's remember one thing here, in 2011 in the Cup final against the Bruins he had three great games and 4 bad games. In the final alone he had two shutouts. Yes, you'd like to see him come through in Game 6 or 7 but let's keep in mind that his entire team scored 8 goals in 7 Cup final games. How in the world are you going to win that way? Also, here is how the Canucks stars' did:

Henrik Sedin - 1 goal in the series, and that wasn't until a blow out in Game 6
Daniel Sedin - 4 points in the series, had 5 games with 0 points
Ryan Kesler - 1 assist in the series, pointless in final 6 games

So how the heck are you suppose to win that way? Granted, the losses the Canucks had were 8-1, 4-0, 5-2, 4-0. I realize this and I am not saying Luongo doesn't deserve his share of the blame but at least he had SOME good games in that final and who knows what an early goal or two does in every other game but the 4-0 game in Game 4. All games but Game 4 Luongo kept them in the game into the 2nd period before things collapsed. Where was their offense?

This is a goalie who was one win away from a Conn Smythe (let's face it, even his biggest detractors agreed he was the most deserving Canucks) to basically being a goalie that was run out of town and put on par with Cory Schneider. It's insane the way he was treated.

 

[Doctor No]

I don't think that's a naïve question at all - under the way I calculate replacement level, then differences in goal scoring environment would not change the rating UNLESS those differences were attributed to the typical number of shots faced per game. What I mean is that, if the average goalie sees 40 shots/game, then a goaltender has more chance to distinguish himself than if the average goalie sees 20 shots/game.

Here's where I'll heavily caveat that I use an estimate of replacement level as "save percentage 0.015 lower than league average" for all seasons. There's some evidence that replacement level has decreased recently (stated differently, there are more capable goalies these days), and I'm working on a rigorous analysis of the effect.

One place where the method does have trouble is that there's no really good way to segregate the competition. For instance, if you're in a league where every goaltender is a legitimate HHOF talent, then half are still going to be "below average". Conversely, if we took today's beer leaguers and put them in every NHL net, then some of them will still be "above average".

This is probably best seen in the later Original Six era, with Sawchuk/Plante/Bower/Hall/Worsley manning 5/6 of the nets. On the other hand, with so many AHL goalies able to step in at a moment's notice, perhaps that reflects their true value (for instance, Bower winning the Calder one year and being replaced the next).

 

[MXD]

I don't think that's a naïve question at all - under the way I calculate replacement level, then differences in goal scoring environment would not change the rating UNLESS those differences were attributed to the typical number of shots faced per game. What I mean is that, if the average goalie sees 40 shots/game, then a goaltender has more chance to distinguish himself than if the average goalie sees 20 shots/game.

Here's where I'll heavily caveat that I use an estimate of replacement level as "save percentage 0.015 lower than league average" for all seasons. There's some evidence that replacement level has decreased recently (stated differently, there are more capable goalies these days), and I'm working on a rigorous analysis of the effect.

One place where the method does have trouble is that there's no really good way to segregate the competition. For instance, if you're in a league where every goaltender is a legitimate HHOF talent, then half are still going to be "below average". Conversely, if we took today's beer leaguers and put them in every NHL net, then some of them will still be "above average".

This is probably best seen in the later Original Six era, with Sawchuk/Plante/Bower/Hall/Worsley manning 5/6 of the nets. On the other hand, with so many AHL goalies able to step in at a moment's notice, perhaps that reflects their true value (for instance, Bower winning the Calder one year and being replaced the next).

Thanks for the explanation. I guess that the number of goals "saved" is a bit reliant on team factors (in other words, in 88-89, Jon Casey probably ranks better vs. the replacement goalie than Patrick Roy does, but that would've have lots to do with the fact his team gave way, way more shots). Casey played a bit more, but the gap in minutes is smaller than the gap in shots allowed (and, well... usually, NHL teams shot-per-minute ratio is usually far below 1).

I really, really wish I could've come up with a better example...

 

[Voight]

Luongo isn't getting in unless the powers that be feel they need to put a goalie in the HOF, however if that was the case it would be Lundqvist.

IMO, the forward classes of this generation will certainly keep him out..

Besides, Luongo would just add to the slippery HOF slope we already have... "If A is good enough then B has to be, so of course we have to consider C"...

What forwards? You do realize he's 36 and will retire well before the stars today. Off the top of my head Iggy, Thornton, Hossa, Sedins, Datsyuk, Zetterberg are really the only forwards around his age that have a HHOF case. Mind you they may not all retire around the same time either, Hossa & Jagrlook like they're going t play forever.

 

[WonderTwinsUnite]

Keep in mind, these "forwards" you might be talking about could be the Sedins. Let's remember one thing here, in 2011 in the Cup final against the Bruins he had three great games and 4 bad games. In the final alone he had two shutouts. Yes, you'd like to see him come through in Game 6 or 7 but let's keep in mind that his entire team scored 8 goals in 7 Cup final games. How in the world are you going to win that way? Also, here is how the Canucks stars' did:

Henrik Sedin - 1 goal in the series, and that wasn't until a blow out in Game 6
Daniel Sedin - 4 points in the series, had 5 games with 0 points
Ryan Kesler - 1 assist in the series, pointless in final 6 games

So how the heck are you suppose to win that way? Granted, the losses the Canucks had were 8-1, 4-0, 5-2, 4-0. I realize this and I am not saying Luongo doesn't deserve his share of the blame but at least he had SOME good games in that final and who knows what an early goal or two does in every other game but the 4-0 game in Game 4. All games but Game 4 Luongo kept them in the game into the 2nd period before things collapsed. Where was their offense?

This is a goalie who was one win away from a Conn Smythe (let's face it, even his biggest detractors agreed he was the most deserving Canucks) to basically being a goalie that was run out of town and put on par with Cory Schneider. It's insane the way he was treated.

In Game 6 he got lit with three bad goals in eight minutes in the first... cost us the game

 

[Hawksfan2828]

Keep in mind, these "forwards" you might be talking about could be the Sedins. Let's remember one thing here, in 2011 in the Cup final against the Bruins he had three great games and 4 bad games. In the final alone he had two shutouts. Yes, you'd like to see him come through in Game 6 or 7 but let's keep in mind that his entire team scored 8 goals in 7 Cup final games. How in the world are you going to win that way? Also, here is how the Canucks stars' did:

Henrik Sedin - 1 goal in the series, and that wasn't until a blow out in Game 6
Daniel Sedin - 4 points in the series, had 5 games with 0 points
Ryan Kesler - 1 assist in the series, pointless in final 6 games

So how the heck are you suppose to win that way? Granted, the losses the Canucks had were 8-1, 4-0, 5-2, 4-0. I realize this and I am not saying Luongo doesn't deserve his share of the blame but at least he had SOME good games in that final and who knows what an early goal or two does in every other game but the 4-0 game in Game 4. All games but Game 4 Luongo kept them in the game into the 2nd period before things collapsed. Where was their offense?

This is a goalie who was one win away from a Conn Smythe (let's face it, even his biggest detractors agreed he was the most deserving Canucks) to basically being a goalie that was run out of town and put on par with Cory Schneider. It's insane the way he was treated.

Luongo has some valid points for consideration but that doesn't change the fact he has never been on the top of the mountain... Like I said it is a terrible era for goalies - there is no clear cut best... Perhaps it's more odd. Indeed Luongo has been consistent, however the guy also is a choker... I suppose an interesting comparison would be Tony Esposito but he has hardware so - and at least he made it to the finals more than once..

It's really a slippery slope for me with Luongo..

I'm more conservative when it comes to the HOF, Vachon isn't in and he has cups and hardware... If he cant get in then why should Luongo?

 

[Hawksfan2828]

What forwards? You do realize he's 36 and will retire well before the stars today. Off the top of my head Iggy, Thornton, Hossa, Sedins, Datsyuk, Zetterberg are really the only forwards around his age that have a HHOF case. Mind you they may not all retire around the same time either, Hossa & Jagrlook like they're going t play forever.

That's just the first ballot HOF'ers...

Honestly, it depends on his class, but he won't be a first ballot HOF'er if he gets in..

 

[Voight]

That's just the first ballot HOF'ers...

Honestly, it depends on his class, but he won't be a first ballot HOF'er if he gets in..

No, those are really the only players in his age group that a re going to make the HHOF, unless I missed anyone. Think I covered all of them tho. Except Jagr, but he could retire today or in 4 years for all we know.

 

[Big Phil]

Luongo has some valid points for consideration but that doesn't change the fact he has never been on the top of the mountain... Like I said it is a terrible era for goalies - there is no clear cut best... Perhaps it's more odd. Indeed Luongo has been consistent, however the guy also is a choker... I suppose an interesting comparison would be Tony Esposito but he has hardware so - and at least he made it to the finals more than once..

It's really a slippery slope for me with Luongo..

I'm more conservative when it comes to the HOF, Vachon isn't in and he has cups and hardware... If he cant get in then why should Luongo?

The latter part of the 2000s and the 2010s aren't great for standout goalies, you're right. It comes to the point where Kipper is almost a borderline guy for this generation.

As for Tony Esposito, I think he probably had some more elite seasons than Luongo, but not by much either. He too looked bad in his lone two trips to the final. In 1971 he let in that awful center ice shot by Lemaire and that was in Game 7. In 1973 the less you talk about his performance against Montreal the better. Esposito was the best goalie on either team in the 1972 Summit Series, so like Luongo in 2010 he has that for Canada.

I'm also in the camp that the Vachon omission has been a mistake. It wouldn't make the HHOF any cheaper if he got in. From the exact same era isn't Vachon superior to Cheevers? I think he is. Either way, if Luongo doesn't get in from this era, then all you have is Lundqvist.

In Game 6 he got lit with three bad goals in eight minutes in the first... cost us the game

Right.......my apologies, every game but Game 6 - not game 4 as I said - he did keep the Canucks in the game well into the 2nd at least. Again, I am not saying he doesn't deserve the blame to an extent, but how Kesler and the Sedins get off the hook for this one is beyond me.